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ZZR400K Project

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wr6133
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Joined: 31 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: 10:13 - 18 Sep 2014    Post subject: ZZR400K Project Reply with quote

Well I liked my ZZR400k (400 version of a 600D) enough that I decided I wanted a nicer one. Now as you can’t get one new anymore (and I couldn’t afford if you could), I decided the only way to get what I want is to build one.

I have a sporadic shoestring budget, no garage to work in and I’m trying to rebuild a 23 year old bike that was never officially sold in the UK and had a short production run. Yes I’m probably stupid.

Now when I began to plan on paper my dream build included

New fairings
All electrics and clocks from a 600D
Entire front end (forks, yokes, etc) from a 1995 onward 600E/400N (they have adjustable preload)
Nissen callipers from a CBR
Hagon shock
New tank

Budget and reality have set in a bit though. The callipers have been dropped I have a spare set of Tokicos I’ll try to recondition. New fairings are impossible (not made) so they will be a case of buying piecemeal on eBay as decent used ones appear. The 600E front end has been dropped as budget probably won’t allow. The Hagon Shock is dropped on budget grounds too, I have a spare standard shock that needs cleaning up and will hopefully buy a better spring to replace on it.

To start with I had a large amount of spares,
Forks – Need work
Engine – Needs a total stripdown and rebuild as unknown condition
Callipers and master cylinders – Both front and rear
Wheels – Need a good cleanup and painting
Rad – Needs a clean but functional have about 5 coolant reservoirs to go with it
Swingarm – Needs a clean
Sprocket carrier – Needs a clean
Various other bits I can’t remember off the top of my head

I bought a frame on eBay for the princely sum of £15. It’s legit, straight and undamaged.

Plan is to have the frame and swingarm powder coated. Cheapest quote I can find is £150. With the sporadic shoestring budget that will take a while to get saved up.

In the meantime I will clean up the bits I have and keep an eye on eBay for bargains I need.

Anyways some photos to start this build log.

The frame
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140820_160428_zps02649aa5.jpg
A dirty engine
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/_57_zps91e151ce.jpg
Sprocket carrier before cleaning
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140915_125838_zpse5a7f553.jpg
And afterward
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140915_143320_zps88d074e6.jpg
Found this sprocket in the pile of parts I have (they came with the current ZZR) looked in good nick so cleaned it up too.
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140915_153217_zps4392ebc5.jpg
Have a 4-1 collector and pipes. I actually want a standard 4-2 on the bike as the 4-1 creates flatspots (my current ZZR has a 4-1).
Cleaned it up though incase it does get used
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140915_155725_zps1723fd6b.jpg
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140915_161518_zps9add840b.jpg

You all may want to buy shares in WD40 the amount I’m going through the company may have a bonanza year.
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140915_161330_zpsd4d831d4.jpg
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140915_162512_zps49e06345.jpg

Cleaned some other bits
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140917_122648_zpsa6ae19e4.jpg

A prior owner had stripped this screw it had then rusted in place
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140917_122826_zps245dcb97.jpg

Hacksaw and leatherman sorted it
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140917_123220_zps11c362b9.jpg
Then degreased. Will need sanding down to remove someone’s shit attempt at painting it
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140917_124840_zps63edbec7.jpg

Today I have started to strip the callipers.
Front M/C, will need a total rebuild the rubber seals are dead.
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140918_091256_zps217a1a63.jpg
Calliper, the pistons are completely seized.
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140918_091305_zps96658d11.jpg
I don’t have a greasegun or airline so trying boiling to get the buggers out
Some tabasco with your entrée?
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20140918_093940_zps1e30ad01.jpg

That’s where I’m at now. This will be a slow build. Not a lot of disposable income so things like powder coating will take a while to save for. Also in no rush as I have a ZZR already on the road.
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Just_James
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PostPosted: 20:04 - 18 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you've got your work cut out with this one but that's the kind of project I like to see and fair play to you for taking it on.

Looks like you've made a good start of things Thumbs Up
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qarka
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PostPosted: 01:26 - 19 Sep 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know its for a rear but this guys video might help with the brakes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbP0Iqky7eU

Nice project man, repairing and repainting things instead of buying new parts is what I like. Smile
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wr6133
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Joined: 31 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: 01:05 - 10 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

An update.

After I started this thread I had an off on a work bike, fractured my elbow and worsened a spine injury, so not a lot got done. Also I’m now out of work and waiting on the NHS to do something more useful than dope me up on Tramadol to sort my spine. Means budget is now non-existent and physically I struggle to get shit done.

However got sick of doing nothing so decided to start on the stuff I do have. That filthy spare engine got cleaned and today popped the lid to check the valves………. They were way, way out. As they were so far out I figured may as well pull the head to check the rest of it.
Sorry for crappy photos, phone isn’t the best and it was also a bit greasy.

My mancave… that’s my work area, it’s a bit tight!
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/zzr/IMG_20141109_185036_zpsd6ba315d.jpg

Cleaned these up a bit
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/zzr/IMG_20141109_181013_zpsbaccfb5a.jpg
Still not gleaming but better, I was worried they’d be knackered as the clearances were so far out but they appear ok
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/zzr/IMG_20141109_184537_zps523ac30d.jpg

Crap photo but in much better condition than I thought
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/zzr/IMG_20141109_183740_zps54045e01.jpg
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/zzr/IMG_20141109_184635_zps019188f4.jpg
Haven’t really looked at this yet. A quick glance I think the rings will need replacing.
https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/zzr/IMG_20141109_184429_zps75905f67.jpg

I’ll be doing more in the week.

None of the bloody shims were marked so I need to get a micrometer to measure them. Then need to find some dirt cheap shims.

Gaskets are going to be a royal pain. The head gasket has lost all its black layer so shouldn’t be reused. However the only way to get a ZZR 400 head gasket is from japan at near £100 posted which is out of budget, also if I add the cost of the other gaskets (which luckily are common with the 600) I need it will total around £150 which is close enough to the price of a used 600 engine that would bolt right in.

Piston rings I haven’t measured yet, I’m hoping they are common with the 600 so replacing would be easy and cheap.

Anyway stay tuned for more engine fiddling through the week.
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 11:28 - 10 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

wr6133 wrote:
None of the bloody shims were marked so I need to get a micrometer to measure them. Then need to find some dirt cheap shims.


When you find out what you need, send me a PM, I've got 5 I think that I changed out when I did my valve clearances, if they're what you need we can sort out a cheapo deal Smile

EDIT - it's from a 600E but I'd be willing to bet they're exactly the same.
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Did have: '95 ZZR600 '83 CG125 '97 ZZR1100 '15 Hypermotard 821 SP Do Have: '10 ZX10R
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 13:24 - 10 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks snoosnoo, the 600E ones will be the same. Probably be a couple of weeks before I can measure them as I need to wait for eBays finest cheap Chinese micrometer to arrive.

The engines are basically the same in the ZZR600D and E (only differences are things like oil cooler pipe position). The 400K and N are just the 600 lumps with smaller cylinders and no oil cooler. The 600 lumps actually fit right in to the 400 the bike is identical just with a downsized engine.
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 14:08 - 10 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

wr6133 wrote:
Thanks snoosnoo, the 600E ones will be the same. Probably be a couple of weeks before I can measure them as I need to wait for eBays finest cheap Chinese micrometer to arrive.

The engines are basically the same in the ZZR600D and E (only differences are things like oil cooler pipe position). The 400K and N are just the 600 lumps with smaller cylinders and no oil cooler. The 600 lumps actually fit right in to the 400 the bike is identical just with a downsized engine.


I've read similar, never actually got to see one in person though. Are the cylinders sleeved down, or is it that the 600 his bored up from the 400s?
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Did have: '95 ZZR600 '83 CG125 '97 ZZR1100 '15 Hypermotard 821 SP Do Have: '10 ZX10R
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 17:20 - 10 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just discovered, I've got 3mm shims. 5 in total.
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I'm Sam; Northern, Ginger, Lover
Did have: '95 ZZR600 '83 CG125 '97 ZZR1100 '15 Hypermotard 821 SP Do Have: '10 ZX10R
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 18:25 - 10 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

snoosnoo wrote:


I've read similar, never actually got to see one in person though. Are the cylinders sleeved down, or is it that the 600 his bored up from the 400s?


ZZR400 Bore and Stroke: 57.5 mm x 38.5 mm
ZZR600 Bore and Stroke: 64 mm x 46.6 mm

To properly convert a 400 engine you need the crank, conrods, etc as well as the cylinders and pistons from a 600, possibly the oil cooler too though I reckon you could get away without as the 400 manages not to explode without one and it's being revved hard all the time. Possible but with running 600 engines often going for not much over £100 probably not worth the ballache. Though you would end up with a ZX4 engine number for V5/VED/Insurance purposes/fraud Laughing

snoosnoo wrote:
Just discovered, I've got 3mm shims. 5 in total.


Thanks could be a while now before I need em though. Bad news today the piston rings are well out of spec on #1&3 and on #2 one appears to be missing a bit which I assume is somewhere down in the bottom so I'll have to split that too Crying or Very sad

The bugger is the only 400 rings I can find are from Hong Kong and cost £27 per set, so 81 quid needed in rings Shocked . My wife is off to China to visit her family next month so I might see if she can source some cheaper locally (along with the other 10 tons of tat I expect her to mule back). If not I'm not spending that much just on rings. I'll either wait till I'm de-crippled and earning then buy a 600 lump or I'll use the best parts from this engine along with the best parts of the 400 engine in my current on the road ZZR.
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 09 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Small update on this

Piston rings. Wife found a seller in China who was out of stock. Till I get them I can't reassemble the engine (and I'm not paying UK eBay prices for the same Chinese pattern part).

Spare rear shock is really beyond repair, I'll either use the one currently on my on the road ZZR or try to get lucky on a decent 2nd hand aftermarket on eBay. Missed a nice Hagon yesterday seller wanted £49 or best offer, I offered a lowball initially, seller sold to someone else.

Began stripping paint off a swingarm, I it must have been last painted by being dunked in a vat of silver paint a few times.

I painted the visible parts of my on the road ZZR's frame with an assortment of paints back in October to see how they held up. Found that poundshop hammerite type stuff was better than the real deal. I have started painting the project frame with it now. I wanted to powder coat but the quotes from local places were more than I want to pay, so paint it is.

Crap photo but frame after 1 coat. It'll have a few more coats and then laquer. Final result should be ok the test run on my other one has held up nicely.

https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20150109_140133_zpsce03e492.jpg

Hope to get the arm and frame all done this month. Then next month make a start at scratch building a wiring loom (I hate electrics so dread this).
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mysterious_rider
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PostPosted: 11:37 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

If i were you I'd be checking the gearbox while the engine is out, its an easy job, but worth looking at if its on higher mileages.

mine went pop and I lost 5th gear, (600cc 95 model) I rebuilt it with 1991 box and selectors and drum. And it lasted probably 500 miles before first gear broke, and now it kangaroos hopelessly in first gear. Laughing

gearboxes are naff in the zzr's.

Do you have any idea if the 400 box fits the 600? Someone on the internets said they are interchangable, and I listened and the older box DOES NOT FIT. It means my gears dont quite work (such as the neutral bit doesnt sit right all the time, it kind of sits just before 2nd in neutral.

On the original gearbox the selector drum was seriously worn, and so it had worn the synchromesh gears aswell on one side (just one part).

Worth a quick peek. Happened at about 50k miles.
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 16:58 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

mysterious_rider wrote:


Do you have any idea if the 400 box fits the 600?



Yes and no.

It depends on the model. While the 600D & 400K ('90-'93) use the same engine as the 600E and 400N ( '93 onward) there are some minor internal differences (I think things were lightened in the later ones). So you could put a 600D engine complete in to a 600E (or 400k or 400N) but chopping and changing parts between them may not end well.

As to the 400 - 600 box. Again not really a straight answer the 400K internals should fit in a 600D (and the 400N to a 600E). Swapping the entire bottom end though would be a bad idea as the 400 has no oil cooler.

It's a minefield, there are lots of things on various ZZR forums where people have tried a part from one model in to another model. Some succeed, some don't, some don't update so must have quadraspazzed.

Best way is just buy a 600 lump and replace the whole thing, one bolts out, the other bolts in (though E and D have slightly different oil cooler pipes positioning but that can be worked round). Or buy the parts you need but make sure they are from an E model. If you are in no rush just check eBay every now and then I've seen people selling 600 engines for peanuts.

If you want the Haynes and the Kwak manual in PDF, PM me an email and I'll send them in the week. The Haynes is shit but the kwak one is ok. ZZR international is the online place for information, it's a bit slow there but you can get just about any question relating to a ZZR answered well.

I plan to tear down the rest of my 400 lump, once the frame is done it's blocking my access at the moment, engine is under the rags on the table behind. Issues getting piston rings though may mean I end up finding a 600 lump, though I would prefer to retain the 400 I like the revvy, screamyness of it.

(I think I just wrote a Teflon-mike essay Laughing )
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 15:01 - 16 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the above painting of the frame went tits up. After finishing it and congratulating myself on a not too shit job, I left it for a couple of days. On return the paint had reacted with something and was blistering up and peeling away, strange as it is the same as the paint I used on my other bike's frame and that has been fine.

Anyway as wife was out I asked her to pick up some black metal paint on the way home. She returned with hammered effect hammerite and a long story about how she spent ages looking in Homebase and the guy told her this was the best thing to paint motorbikes with Rolling Eyes . Anyway didn't have the heart to tell her it was not what I was after so now I have a hammered effect frame. Not particularly well done but I had passed the point of giving a shit. Here it is after 3 coats, next to do is the swingarm.

https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/LPIC5026_zpsc97a13b7.jpg

https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/LPIC5024_zps19748372.jpg

Also need to make a start on this loom. Last owner has plastered it in cheap, sticky, gunky tape.

https://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh504/wr6133/IMG_20150116_132654_zps9a26b387.jpg
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ride_to_die
Crazy Courier



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PostPosted: 15:48 - 16 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hats off for taking this on.....I would've given up quite quickly.
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