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Biker_Abi |
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NJD World Chat Champion
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Ste Not Work Safe
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G The Voice of Reason
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recman |
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recman World Chat Champion
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Ste |
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Ste Not Work Safe
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Posted: 22:03 - 29 Mar 2015 Post subject: |
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As you've got lots of money you should get at least two offroad bikes. |
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Biker_Abi |
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Biker_Abi Derestricted Danger
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MarJay |
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MarJay But it's British!
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stevo as b4 |
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stevo as b4 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 11:51 - 30 Mar 2015 Post subject: |
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I'd look for a TTR250 like Fladdem has, an XR250 or 400. There's older but good bikes like the DR350, XT350, but many of them like KMX200's, CRM's, DT's and MTX's will be often knackered and non usable project status.
At 100kg, Id say avoid 125's and don't look for power outputs. A 200cc KTM etc, might have all the power you need and more, but it's not likely to that usable most of the time.
G's suggestions as ever are KTM orientated, and great if you can:
a, afford them
b, want to improve and get better and do more competition orientated stuff with them
c, avoid using them on the road much. A KTM 300EXC is a fine and very powerful competition bike, but for road use with the mpg and tank range it'll suck, and I really think a 50bhp hard to ride quickly 2stroke is not the idea bike for most novice's or anyone that want to play and have fun, instead of getting really serious about enduro events etc.
I do like the AJP range of bikes, and theing they have nice parts fitted, good build quality and are cheaper than other European brands, as they use recycled older generation Jap engines. |
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G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 13:51 - 30 Mar 2015 Post subject: |
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Biker_Abi wrote: | I always fancied a KTM but not sure if they're great first time bikes?
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Compared to other options, a KTM 300 is:
Lighter.
Has more low down and midrange (less gear changes needed).
Better suspension.
Has proper enduro tyre options (NJD suggesting a bike with road wheels and tyres seems rather silly to my mind.)
Has masses of knowledge and parts availability, including second hand.
Should still be able to get an older 300 for £1k, especially a Gas-Gas, which don't hold their value quite so well.
Quote: | b, want to improve and get better and do more competition orientated stuff with them
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Also for people that don't want to improve (probably unlikely), or want to improve, but not to do more competition stuff. I would expect something harder to ride like the KTM 200 would improve your riding skill more for the enduro racer, over the pussy-cat 300.
Quote: | c, avoid using them on the road much. A KTM 300EXC is a fine and very powerful competition bike, but for road use with the mpg and tank range it'll suck, and I really think a 50bhp hard to ride quickly 2stroke is not the idea bike for most novice's or anyone that want to play and have fun, instead of getting really serious about enduro events etc. |
Most dirt bikes with dirt tyres aren't very good on the road, but yes I wouldn't choose one of these for 'daily commuting'.
The 300EXC isn't hard to ride; quite the opposite, I suggest it often because they are actually very easy to ride.
The 200 barely makes more power than 125. It does however have a big fat lump of go from the midrange, which does make it harder to ride.
When I had the 144,200 and 300 the 300 was by far the easiest engine to use. The 200 the hardest and the 144 being the newest was the lightest, so great at down hill, but missing that addictive-hit of the 200.
The KTM125 is likely to have a good bit better power to weight ratio with a 100kg rider than a DR350 with an 80kg rider I'd expect. |
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stevo as b4 |
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stevo as b4 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 15:17 - 30 Mar 2015 Post subject: |
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All fair points, and I know you know the KTM range and have direct experience of many varients, hence your often orange suggestions!
I'm of the opinion that I could not ride through a welsh forest enduro stage, or around a more MX derived course any quicker on a KTM 300 than I could on a TTR250, hence it would be wasted on me.
Also I'm kinda of the mindset that say if I had a DR350, then I would want to be getting the very most from it and using all of it's potential on every ride, or getting frustrated to losing out to riders on better machinery. I'd hate to have a competition bike, and look the part yet be crap on it.
It'd be like someone on a twin shock trials bike cleaning every section, and me riding the same class of sections on a Cota 315R and falling off on most of them. I wouldn't want to be that guy!
Also in your opinion would you still recommend the 300cc KTM's over the 125/200's for very technical stuff like they do in continental events that are closer to trials in their speed and severity? |
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G |
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G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 16:25 - 30 Mar 2015 Post subject: |
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Have you ridden a KTM300?
I haven't a TTR to be fair and weight wise they seem pretty reasonable, but I'd still expect 10% less weight on the bike, likely better suspension and an engine with loads more low down power would help you a bit in most situations. I chose the 144 for Hafren, but I'm sure the 300 engine would have seen me quicker in a good few bits.
On the DR350, I'd suggest you're falling for the 'c50 logical fallacy' .
(Ie; if you put Rossi and yourself on a c90 next to each other, you wouldn't go as fast as Rossi, thus "wouldn't get the best from it", so you should probably stick to the C50.)
I do appreciate not being an 'all the gear no idea' type - I was a tad horrified in trackday pictures to note that my gear both all matched, but also matched the race bike I was riding!
However, I've certainly in a very, very similar example riding a Rev3 (I wanted a 315R actually, but missed bidding and as it goes the person selling had a fried with a rev3 for sale too, so got that) - I've certainly failed to clean sections people on classic trials machines have done with ease. However, if I were on a less worthy machine, I'd have done worse and had less fun. I didn't find any aminosity from the performance and even found plenty of people to help out a 'noob' with techique and so on.
The 300 engine excels for trials-like stuff, thanks to it's globs of low down punch mixed with light weight. You'll often see them used for extreme enduros for that reason.
The 125 lacks oomph in comparison, though it weighs less. The 200 is great to be revved in flowing woods, but requires a chunk more skill to make use of the typically powerbandy engine. There's not a massive number of kgs between the 300 and 125/200 (which are basically the same), some of which is the electric start. Dimensions are the same. So for ease of use, the bigger cc is the one to go for. It'll be a bit less manouverable due to more rotating mass, but still better than a 4 stroke with more spinning weight and higher rpm. |
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thx1138 |
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thx1138 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 17:12 - 30 Mar 2015 Post subject: |
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I've ridden on the road with dirt tyres so much now, I forget it's not normal. |
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Fladdem |
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Fladdem World Chat Champion
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Posted: 19:51 - 30 Mar 2015 Post subject: |
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Stevo got in there before me. I've ridden a KTM 300 and came away disappointed. It was a great bit of kit, but too small, and seemed quite stall-able. I almost always suggest a TTR when this topic crops up, I think it's a wicked bike, you can do anything on it.
https://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag134/Fladdem/MX%20Day/10428153_281473372056544_6511064373269963812_o_zps41a10981.jpg
Did my first enduro on mine, after about three weeks of owning it, didn't come last. Did a long distance trial on it, just to prove a point that I can do everything the KTM'ers can. Again, I didn't come last. Done motocross on it. I was the slowest at that though. Green laning, great, commute to work on it, great. put road wheels and tyres on and prat around with mates on their 125's, great. I actually pulled slower lap times on a fully race prepped CRF250R than my own bike, I guess that's to do with riding what you are used to, though.
So after suggesting a TTR, I think you should buy a CRM 250. Torquier than the KaTooM, more oomph at the top than my TTR, better suspenders, crawls up hills I couldn't get up on my TTR, but you do need to change gear more than on a four stroke. I'm not very good at riding it like a two stroke, but it copes with my rubbish skills quite well.
I actually prefer trail bikes to enduro bikes. If offered a DR350 or a KTM, I would be more inclined towards the old Suzuki, for my needs, it just suits me much better, I use my dirt bikes to attempt every aspect of dirt bike riding, and trailies from the 90's seem much more flexible, IMO.
My TTR may be up for grabs soon though? I'm thinking about her bigger sister... ____________________ Current:1991 Honda MT50 (Soon to be a H100/MTX/MT5 hybrid), 1976 Honda Cub C70, 2005 Honda Varadero 125, 1993 Yamaha TTR250 Open Enduro , 2010 Road Legal Stomp YX140, 1994 Honda CRM 250 MK III, 1999 Cagiva Mito 125, 1992 Honda CB400 Super Four, Stomp T4 230, 1984 Honda H100s, 2009 Sym XS125K
Past:2003 Aprilia RS125, 1982 Kawasaki GPZ550(FREE BIKE!)
I'm having more fun than a well-oiled midget. |
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G |
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G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 20:44 - 30 Mar 2015 Post subject: |
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I still think there was something wrong or weirdly setup with the 300 you were riding, because none of what you describe matches my experiences of any 250cc + modernish enduro bike.
(My 87 350cc KTM which didn't have a powervalve was more peaky etc, but you're still talking xr250 sort of power before it hit the powerband, then a bit hit as it came on-pipe.)
I've got a pic somewhere of doing jumps on a stock c90. Also did a lap of enduro land, even keeping up with some riders of KTMs in the twisty sections!
I did my first enduro on a KTM690, which is less suitable than a TTR - but I wouldn't recommend it for someone looking for their first dirt bike .
From that, every 300cc enduro bike I've ridden has a chunk more low down pull than all the CRM250s I've ridden.
(Though, the CRM is a nice bike, it just seems a bit silly to get one over the competition bike unless you're planning on doing lots of road miles.)
I'd definitely have to change gear less on a 300 than than an XR250 for similar riding. |
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Fladdem |
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Fladdem World Chat Champion
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Posted: 21:07 - 30 Mar 2015 Post subject: |
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Actually G, you're right. The 300 was having power valve issues now you mention it. I'd forgotten that.
I like the weight of trail bikes as well. Proper competition machines don't feel very substantial to me, and it just feels weird and wrong. I also like being the odd one out, on an old Jap bike in a sea of orange when you go to events. You always get the blokes that have been at it for a while come over and give you tips because they started on/used to own that bike. They then think you're a better rider than you are because you're struggling around on something a bit out-dated but not being left behind.
I think I only mentioned my CRM, because it is my favourite dirt bike I have ever rode. It feels similar to a standard CRF250 but a tad easier to use and a bit quicker, but not by much.
The WR250F is another serious contender for favourite dirt bike I've rode. But I don't think I could ever go back to four stroke now. The power delivery just isn't as nice. I never get on with 450's, I nearly got spat off a Husaberg 450, again on a WR450 a KX450F tried to kill me as well. I am a noob with a lead fist, but I just think that I couldn't deal with something like that except for road use, which would be a bit of a waste.
My first ride on a bike was at 15, I'd just bought my c70 and got her running, and me and my dad had gone to the local field to get some practise in before my CBT in a few months time. It wasn't long before my dad was encouraging me to fly off a mound in the field.
I need to get out and ride more. ____________________ Current:1991 Honda MT50 (Soon to be a H100/MTX/MT5 hybrid), 1976 Honda Cub C70, 2005 Honda Varadero 125, 1993 Yamaha TTR250 Open Enduro , 2010 Road Legal Stomp YX140, 1994 Honda CRM 250 MK III, 1999 Cagiva Mito 125, 1992 Honda CB400 Super Four, Stomp T4 230, 1984 Honda H100s, 2009 Sym XS125K
Past:2003 Aprilia RS125, 1982 Kawasaki GPZ550(FREE BIKE!)
I'm having more fun than a well-oiled midget. |
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G |
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G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 21:36 - 30 Mar 2015 Post subject: |
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After riding the 144 at Hafren, I'm all for as light weight as possible - great fun on the descents having something that feels akin to a mountain bike, but that takes big hits with a lot less skill and has 38hp to get you up the other side .
My ideal fun bike would be a modern as possible KTM200 (the XC is usually listed as being a couple of kg lighter than the EXC, but not sure if that's just the road stuff.) |
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stevo as b4 |
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stevo as b4 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 10:24 - 31 Mar 2015 Post subject: |
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I still say TTR250, XR250 or even better the WR250F (awesome for a novice) would be great beginners bikes for general off roading. It's not like the OP is aming to enter a competition class where specific machinery is required, both for the rules and to be competitive.
i.e if your were taking up beginners MX racing you'd want a well prepared say YZ125 or YZ250F from the outset for example.
For first time trail riding, green laning or even off road adventure riding, or your first enduro event etc, I would say a 20-25bhp bike would be more than enough to have a lot of fun on and not intimidate you.
G I havn't actually ridden a 300cc 2smoke, but I still don't think a 50bhp bike is that suitable for the OP as a first machine. They might be pretty trials like at low revs, and vey luggable in high gears, but if the OP say accidently grabs a huge handful of throttle (which could happen in a moment of panic or from a bad landing or body position coming out of a tight turn etc, the when a 300cc 50bhp motor lights up it's gonna flip the bike from under you before you know whats happened, or just take off with the rider shitting themselves possibly.
I've said it before, but I was out once and saw a guy pulling out of a housing estate on a 300EXC. He was only short shifting through the gears, and yet the front was coming up a bit each time as he went up the road. A novice getting it wrong on one of these machines could get into so much shit so quickly IMO.
Oh and if a 300cc 2T is that good, I do wonder why more novices don't go the old 500cc MX route for a first play bike/green laner, as surely you'd have even more of a soft and cuddly power delivery on a CR500 or similar? |
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G |
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G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 11:27 - 31 Mar 2015 Post subject: |
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stevo as b4 wrote: | I still say TTR250, XR250 or even better the WR250F (awesome for a novice) would be great beginners bikes for general off roading. It's not like the OP is aming to enter a competition class where specific machinery is required, both for the rules and to be competitive. |
So why not a lighter, easier to start bike with an engine that can be used out of gear more easily?
You do lose the use of engine braking, which is useful on 4 strokes. But more than made up for in manouverability, ease of picking the bike up and so on to my mind.
If you're at lower revs, you'll likely get a similar response to the 4 stroke. I was always much more likely to flip or loose traction on the 200 than the 300, because you had to rev it and it had the hit that came in suddenly. You don't have that hit, but for the same progress on a 4 stroke, you need to be on the boil a lot more on a XR250 or similar. That can be good for forcing you to improve your skills, but is also more likely to lead to mistakes I'd suggest. Tends to lead to a bit of frustration too - I find most people with them tend to want to upgrade after not TOO long, while the 300 will grow with you for some time.
(I know not serious, but...) A CR500 is designed for motocross, which tends to have a peaky delivery. They're also very hard to get hold of, very expensive and hard to start. While an enduro bike is designed to have a very usable and friendly power delivery (the KTM 200 being an odd exception) and are available from around £1k for a second hand one with MOT.
When I first rode a competition enduro 2 stroke I was very surprised at the power delivery - it was a RMX250, which I'd swapped for a few miles with the DR600 I had been riding. I wasn't expecting to find the 2 stroke had a more linear power delivery than the big trail 4 - I kept running out of revs because it was so flat! Found the same for all the modern 250cc+ enduro 2 strokes I've ridden. |
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Fladdem |
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Fladdem World Chat Champion
Joined: 29 Jun 2011 Karma :
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Posted: 17:09 - 03 Apr 2015 Post subject: |
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I think you are more likely to get out of hand quicker on a four stroke, because it has a wider spread of torque across the whole rev range, so it will pull better in each gear, which means a handful of throttle on a 4T is more likely to end up with OP on rear end.
I did it on a fully race-prepped 2013 CRF250R, my mate reckons it has about 40hp after everything, give or take a horse here and there, and coming off a drop-off, landing slightly funny, smacked the throttle open coming up to a tight right-hand berm. The thing took off with me, went screaming up the berm, I went flying and smashing through a pallet at the edge of the track, my leg has never been the same since. There is a weird lump there and it is still sore to the touch, that was on the 22nd of September 2014, but my injury isn't the point. The point of that is that competition four strokes are much more likely to leave you potato.
WR250F's are phenomenal machines. Nice and sedate as standard, more top end go than my TTR but not as much at the bottom, engine characteristics feel identical to my machine. But mine is a 263cc, ported and polished head, after market exhaust pipe, airfilter, un-corked, and slightly higher compression than standard, I think about 11:1 compared to the 10.5:1?
Only issues I find with my CRM compared to my TTR, is:
a) The fuel economy is dire, I get less than 30MPG out of the Honda sometimes, I get about 50 from the TTR.
b) When I stall the CRM in an awkward position, I really struggle to keep my balance sometimes to kick her over. So a 'leccy start is handy sometimes.
c) I have to think about gears a bit more. It's not too much of a hassle really, considering how torquey it is for a smoker, it's less fussy than something peakier but often you want to gun it out of a corner but it just wurrs until you stamp it down a cog then it WAAAAHHHPS! out of the corner like a proper bike. ____________________ Current:1991 Honda MT50 (Soon to be a H100/MTX/MT5 hybrid), 1976 Honda Cub C70, 2005 Honda Varadero 125, 1993 Yamaha TTR250 Open Enduro , 2010 Road Legal Stomp YX140, 1994 Honda CRM 250 MK III, 1999 Cagiva Mito 125, 1992 Honda CB400 Super Four, Stomp T4 230, 1984 Honda H100s, 2009 Sym XS125K
Past:2003 Aprilia RS125, 1982 Kawasaki GPZ550(FREE BIKE!)
I'm having more fun than a well-oiled midget. |
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Biker_Abi |
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Biker_Abi Derestricted Danger
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samv |
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samv Derestricted Danger
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Posted: 23:33 - 04 Aug 2015 Post subject: |
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i started my offroad experience on a Honda CR250R
great machine! but maybe not that suitable as a starters bike |
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stuartt |
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stuartt World Chat Champion
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 8 years, 258 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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