Scousers crush each other

[CaNsA]

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[CaNsA]

[Diggs]

Of course the South Yorkshire plod have sorted themselves out. Now they are a model of progressive policing.... Imagine being asked what you do for a job and having to admit to being a SY plod!!!!
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[arry]

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[Polarbear]

How many investigations are ongoing about historical abuses/failures in SYP?

Hillsborough
Rotherham sex abuse (failure to act)
Orgreave (falsifying statements)
Cliff Richard (lying about something or other)

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/28/is-south-yorkshire-police-worth-saving-after-hillsborough

They make the Manchester force under James Anderton look like honest policemen
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The conduct of SYP isn't under question really. We all know they cocked up and lied to try to cover their tracks and should be held accountable for their actions and non-actions.
I don't feel this verdict of 100% blame to SYP and the "unlawful death" verdict, along with the fans being completely exonerated is justice though.
It's was simply giving the campaigners what they wanted, by scripting 14 carefully worded questions to get the result.
Has justice been done? IMO, no, both sides should carry some blame.
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[ashley_46]

Surely the fact that the same fans that were at Hillsborough were also at numerous other games with the same mentality but without incident should be a sign of the failings of the police/stadium that day. If the fans were the problem then I would have thought there would have been more incidents happening.

I also think it would be more accurate to say that football in general had a problem with fan violence, Milwall, West Ham and Chelsea all had reputations in the 80's and in all honesty Heysel may well have happened regardless of which fans were there due to the behaviour of a lot of groups of fans back then and the state of the stadium. The fact that a number of fans were jailed for their part in that incident also seems to be forgotten by people shouting about justice for that incident.

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[ashley_46]

[ashley_46]

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[ashley_46]

[ashley_46]

On the topic of Heysel just a little bit of information on it rather than just "but Heysel"

Heysel was the disgraceful culmination of more than a decade of ugly incidents involving English supporters on their European travels: Tottenham Hotspur in Rotterdam in 1974 and 1983, Leeds United in Paris in 1975, Manchester United in St Etienne in 1977, the national team in Basle in 1981 and so on until the spiral of moronic violence reached its tragic conclusion.

As to whether individuals were brought to account, 27 arrests were made on suspicion of manslaughter and 26 men were charged. The prosecutions stemmed from television camera footage of the charge – the third such charge in a matter of minutes – that led directly to the deaths of those 39 innocent spectators. There are dozens of points that are usually offered to explain the context, not least over ticketing, segregation and a crumbling stadium, but the context does not begin to excuse what happened. No amount of context ever could.

As for “justice”, an initial inquiry by Marina Coppieters, a leading Belgian judge, found after 18 months that the police and the authorities, in addition to Liverpool supporters, should face charges. Quite apart from the hooliganism, ticketing arrangements and police strategy and responses were criticised.

Jacques Georges, the Uefa president at the time, and Hans Bangerter, his general secretary, were threatened with imprisonment but eventually given conditional discharges.

Albert Roosens, the former secretary-general of the Belgian Football Union (BFU), was given a six-month suspended prison sentence for “regrettable negligence” with regard to ticketing arrangements. So was gendarme captain Johan Mahieu, who was in charge of the policing the stands at Heysel. “He made fundamental errors,” Pierre Verlynde, the judge, said.

People held accountable and at least some sort of justice rather than cover ups and blame.

[RedPanda]

What I dislike about Liverpool fans is their hypocisy. From 2007, so in the midst of their JFT96 campaign:

https://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/6686867.stm

Uefa spokesman William Gaillard said: "The behaviour of the Liverpool fans is in the end responsible for the problems that took place before the game."

"It is very easy to say it is not a suitable stadium. The Milan supporters didn't face the same problems because they didn't behave in the same way.

"The kind of pushing that was going on and the attempts to jump over barriers - imagine if we had turnstiles, we could have had a tragedy.

"More than three hours before the game there were incidents at the Liverpool end with people trying to get in either with fake tickets or jumping over the barriers.

"It is obvious that at one point the police felt overwhelmed and it is much to their credit there were no dangerous incidents.

"I am very sorry for what happened to fans who had regular tickets but at the same time there is a collective responsibility in terms of behaviour.

Heysel always gets brought up because Liverpool fans paint themselves as all being angels. The above, far more recent example could have been another Hillsborough
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[ashley_46]

You are quite right that the behaviour is unnacceptable but this happens a lot with a lot of different supporters and the reason it doesn't normally result in deaths is because the police manage to do their jobs correctly and have plans to minimise the problems caused by the small minority of fans causing trouble.

The problem at Hillsborough seems to be that the police were totally under prepared and failed to react correctly and the decision to put the larger group of fans in an end that had a history of problems and had near misses in previous years. Lessons should really have been learnt from the near misses in 1981, 1987 and 1988. Even as far back as 1957 there was an incident that was only prevented from becoming a tragedy by the intervention of the police.

To blame it on the fans is too simplistic.

[arry]

[ashley_46]

I would say there was probably no more loutish behavior than any other match of that era which I would guess is why the fans have been absolved of blame. I think the biggest issue was the layout of the ground and the failure to manage where the fans were going. It is not quite as simple as loutish fans fans pushing and shoving.

From what I have read by the time the fans entering the tunnel would have seen there was an issue it would have been too late to stop going forward due to the fans behind them trying to get in and the incline of the tunnel. There is a lot of information about this from fans of other clubs that were involved in the incidents in the past.

I can see your point and agree to an extent but if the ground had of been fit for purpose and the police had been up to the job then the deaths would not have a happened. In that era the behavior of the fans on that day was not really any different to many other games which went by without issue. I think your point about 3 not happening if 2 did there jobs properly is why the fans were absolved as their behavior would not have caused 3 had 2 been up to the job. With proper policing 1 becomes a non issue and was only able to become a problem because of the failings of 2.

Thats not to say that 1 should be accepted as ok behavior but that under normal circumstances their behavior would not reasonably be able to cause the deaths of the fans that it did. The major failings and the major differences between this incident and the many matches the went without a hitch were the failings of the police and the dangerous lay out of that part of the ground. Take away either of those and the tragedy never happens.

I know you could also say the same can be said of the behavior of the fans and you would have a point but in that era the fan behavior on that day was not much different to any other day. A lot of the accounts of shoving and trouble by fans have since been proven to be either untrue or exaggerated at best.

The fans did not go there with the intention of causing any harm. In the same way that the police didn't go out to kill anyone. Had there have been no cover up and an acceptance of the failings by both the police and the FA then this would probably have been seen as the tragedy that it was without the need to try and blame the fans as if they were behaving any differently to other fans up and down the country.

The fact that the ground had a history of near misses just goes to show why the Liverpool fans should never have been in that end of the ground as they had the bigger following.

The images showing large areas of the stands with plenty of empty space also seems to show the failure of the police to manage the distribution of fans correctly on that occasion.

This could have happened to any set of fans just like it very nearly did in the years before it actually did.

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[CaNsA]

[RedPanda]

Liverpool were by no means the worst in the 80s – I’d put Millwall, Luton, Birmingham, Leeds, Cardiff, Chelsea, West Ham and possibly some others ahead of them.

However, with Liverpool’s large crowds and repeated success (ie big games at neutral venues) I guess they had more opportunities for the worst to occur. With the poor organisation and policing Hillsborough became the perfect storm.
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[lihp]

Nobody is saying that the Poliec made no mistakes. The police during the event made mistakes, the police behaviour after the event was quite simply disgusting.

The issue I, and many others have. Is to say the Police were 100% to blame. Clearly, it is a culmination of many factors, fan behaviour at the time, the stadium, the fencing, the policing. Many factors contributed to it. To say that just the police was 100% to blame is simply wrong.
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[Lord Percy]