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A100man |
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A100man World Chat Champion
Joined: 19 Aug 2013 Karma :
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Posted: 21:33 - 01 May 2024 Post subject: Leaking Nipple? |
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Trting to trace a soft front brake .Replaced almost everyting, caliper seals/pistons, M/C seals copper washers - one hose ettc..
Left for a couple of days with teh lever tied in too and noticed a small patch oil fluid benetah a caliper.. and teh nipple looks wet, however it is done up tight.
Could it need reseating like ytou do with a domestic tap? Caliper type is Yamaha 1980s as found on XJs and RDs. Hints and tips welcome. ____________________ Now: A100, GT250A, XJ598, FZ750
Then: Fizz, RS200, KL250, XJ550, Laverda Alpina, XJ600, FZS600 |
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Nobby the Bastard |
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Nobby the Bastard Harley Gaydar
Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Karma :
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A100man |
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A100man World Chat Champion
Joined: 19 Aug 2013 Karma :
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Posted: 22:22 - 01 May 2024 Post subject: |
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Nobby the Bastard wrote: | Assuming not your bike....
Ask the owner if they have recently replaced the nipple, if I remember correctly there are two sorts of nipple angle and if you have the wrong nipple the thread will be right ut the seat wont be flush. |
No it is my bike (XJ550 essentially).. The caliper refurb kit included new nipples which I fitted without checking. On examination I spotted they were 'sharper' the the old ones so I refitted the old ones. Alas I think I still have a leak.. ____________________ Now: A100, GT250A, XJ598, FZ750
Then: Fizz, RS200, KL250, XJ550, Laverda Alpina, XJ600, FZS600 |
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Nobby the Bastard |
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Nobby the Bastard Harley Gaydar
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A100man |
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A100man World Chat Champion
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WD Forte |
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WD Forte World Chat Champion
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Mysteriass |
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Mysteriass Nova Slayer
Joined: 06 Apr 2015 Karma :
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Posted: 00:44 - 02 May 2024 Post subject: |
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It's the estrogens in the water making the frogs gay...
I've been asked several times why I don't replace the knackered, leaky, bent parts of my bike with new stuff.
It's because the new aftermarket parts are worse than the knackered 50 year old stuff.
As for putting on NOS stuff... I'm not worthy. I'll just keep those to go in my tomb when I'm dead. They say some people were buried with the things they'd need for their next life; swords, grains, seeds, gems, gold...
I'll need a NOS fuel tap next time round because you sure as hell can't buy a new aftermarket one that doesn't leak worse than the half'a'decade old one you've already got that was made with competence.
https://www.palladiummag.com/2023/06/01/complex-systems-wont-survive-the-competence-crisis/
We're getting to a point where we'll need to visit a machine shop to get replacement parts. Even simple parts. (So keep old stuff for technical specification)
Expect to see threads on these forums over the next few years of people getting parts manufactured in machine shops and spreading the costs of a production run with other people who need those parts too. Most of the new stuff on ebay is junk from day one so what other choices will there be?
It's almost like some certain special somebodies imported the third world and made the first world become third world. Now you can't even buy a nipple that doesn't leak. Who'd a seen that coming. It's almost like the biblical prophecy's of the end times are being artifically arranged to come true. Now just QUI would have the nerve to try and trick G*d himself with such a ruse?
If it's still leaking then the thread on the aftermarket nipple might have shagged the thread in the caliper? Take the old nipple back out and loctite it... or put some PTFE plumber tape on it. |
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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A100man |
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A100man World Chat Champion
Joined: 19 Aug 2013 Karma :
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Posted: 10:27 - 02 May 2024 Post subject: |
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OK chaps.. confession time.. looked again this morning (I've only just moved the bike to my house from it's winter storage place).
Leak may well turn out to be fork oil (I changed teh seals over winter) from a poorly sealed damper rod bolt drippig onto the same patch of floor.
Nonetheless the nipples still look damp even after a wipe with some paper towel. and the feel is abysmal. Next step is to replace the whole M/C I think... ____________________ Now: A100, GT250A, XJ598, FZ750
Then: Fizz, RS200, KL250, XJ550, Laverda Alpina, XJ600, FZS600 |
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pdg |
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pdg World Chat Champion
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pdg |
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pdg World Chat Champion
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Robby |
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Robby Dirty Old Man
Joined: 16 May 2002 Karma :
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pdg |
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pdg World Chat Champion
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A100man |
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A100man World Chat Champion
Joined: 19 Aug 2013 Karma :
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Posted: 07:49 - 05 May 2024 Post subject: |
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pdg wrote: | When you put new seals in the master, did you "bench bleed" it?
Certain masters are a total git for retaining a little bit of air - put a short bit of hose from the outlet looped up into the (full) reservoir and cycle the lever while changing the angle it's at a little. If my description is shit I can draw an equally shit picture to explain it just as badly...
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Ta, I think I'll dismantle to check I didn't nick a seal then give that a try..
.. the system has a short hose to a splitter so that should work. ____________________ Now: A100, GT250A, XJ598, FZ750
Then: Fizz, RS200, KL250, XJ550, Laverda Alpina, XJ600, FZS600 |
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A100man |
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A100man World Chat Champion
Joined: 19 Aug 2013 Karma :
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Posted: 07:52 - 05 May 2024 Post subject: |
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Robby wrote: | You mentioned a caliper rebuild kit, did it include new sliding pins for the pads?
Pins corrode and get notchy, which can contribute to an awful feel at the lever. Decent replacements are also surprisingly expensive. So if you didn't replace them, it's a good place to check.
>> no new pins but they slide OK I did dress them with some emery
New master cylinder is a good shout. Whilst I would like to say rebuild it, I don't know if the rebuild kits currently available are any good. It's also one of those jobs which is easy to get wrong, and bad news if you do get it wrong.
>> yeah could be a shit kit.. £20 who know?
I'm also assuming that you replaced the caliper seals using the rebuild kit, and scraped out any corrosion from behind the seals or on the piston when you changed the seals.
>> Yes, thorough groove clean.
Front brakes on old bikes. They can go wrong in so many fun little ways, and when they work perfectly they're still a bit shit. |
____________________ Now: A100, GT250A, XJ598, FZ750
Then: Fizz, RS200, KL250, XJ550, Laverda Alpina, XJ600, FZS600 |
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pdg |
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pdg World Chat Champion
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MCN |
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MCN Super Spammer
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pdg |
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pdg World Chat Champion
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Karma :
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Posted: 05:18 - 07 May 2024 Post subject: Re: Leaking Nipple? |
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MCN wrote: |
Theory: (Railway Arches/Shade Tree mechanic.)
Tying back the brake lever helps remove trapped air from a brake system.
Where is the science on this? |
Theoretically, keeping the fluid under pressure compresses any air in the system making "bubbles" smaller and these smaller bubbles move through the lines more easily.
Personally, I have never seen any benefit from doing this. I've tried it twice.
MCN wrote: |
Theory: (Penis Pump)
Openning the brake system into a Vacuum reduces the atmopressuric pressure acting on the fluid.
Less pressure allows entrapped air bubbles to expand and lump together.
Bigger bubbles can be pushed out of the system.
In Theory. |
I believe you have the theory wrong in this statement. The purpose of all the vac bleeders I've seen is simply to pull fluid through the system, thereby bleeding via flow but saving you from pumping the master.
Essentially they allegedly perform an identical function to a pressure bleeder (pressure bleeder increases pressure on the reservoir and pushes fluid through the system - vac bleeder lowers the pressure at the bleed point and relativistically increases pressure at the reservoir).
Unfortunately, because the nipple threads are threads, they don't seal and therefore, again, I have never seen any benefit from these.
MCN wrote: |
Experience: (Brake Doctor/Ezebeed)
Pressure bleeding a brake system works every time.
Gunson ezebleed tools.
Only issue is finding a reservoir cap to adapticate to fit the tool. |
Now this, this true.
The res cap bit is also true unfortunately - I have a selection of aluminium plate offcuts that can be used as adaptors for specific masters - I have also used a chunk of inner tube and a selection of cable ties and woodworking clamps in conjunction with low pressure to effect a bleeding operation...
I only ever bleed with a pressure bleeder now - cars, motorbikes, push bikes, the lot. I have two 'proper' units (for different fluids) and a little pressure vessel scavenged from a central heating boiler that I charge with a hand pump along with the boxful of cobbled adaptors. Also, 100ml syringes work great on small capacity systems (like non vented bicycle hydro brakes). ____________________ Any and all advice given should not be followed - if you have to ask it means you don't know so get a man in to do it for you. |
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MCN |
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MCN Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 Karma :
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Posted: 09:51 - 07 May 2024 Post subject: Re: Leaking Nipple? |
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pdg wrote: | MCN wrote: |
Theory: (Railway Arches/Shade Tree mechanic.)
Tying back the brake lever helps remove trapped air from a brake system.
Where is the science on this? |
Theoretically, keeping the fluid under pressure compresses any air in the system making "bubbles" smaller and these smaller bubbles move through the lines more easily.
Personally, I have never seen any benefit from doing this. I've tried it twice.
MCN wrote: |
Theory: (Penis Pump)
Openning the brake system into a Vacuum reduces the atmopressuric pressure acting on the fluid.
Less pressure allows entrapped air bubbles to expand and lump together.
Bigger bubbles can be pushed out of the system.
In Theory. |
I believe you have the theory wrong in this statement. The purpose of all the vac bleeders I've seen is simply to pull fluid through the system, thereby bleeding via flow but saving you from pumping the master.
Essentially they allegedly perform an identical function to a pressure bleeder (pressure bleeder increases pressure on the reservoir and pushes fluid through the system - vac bleeder lowers the pressure at the bleed point and relativistically increases pressure at the reservoir).
Unfortunately, because the nipple threads are threads, they don't seal and therefore, again, I have never seen any benefit from these.
MCN wrote: |
Experience: (Brake Doctor/Ezebeed)
Pressure bleeding a brake system works every time.
Gunson ezebleed tools.
Only issue is finding a reservoir cap to adapticate to fit the tool. |
Now this, this true.
The res cap bit is also true unfortunately - I have a selection of aluminium plate offcuts that can be used as adaptors for specific masters - I have also used a chunk of inner tube and a selection of cable ties and woodworking clamps in conjunction with low pressure to effect a bleeding operation...
I only ever bleed with a pressure bleeder now - cars, motorbikes, push bikes, the lot. I have two 'proper' units (for different fluids) and a little pressure vessel scavenged from a central heating boiler that I charge with a hand pump along with the boxful of cobbled adaptors. Also, 100ml syringes work great on small capacity systems (like non vented bicycle hydro brakes). |
My theory is 100% correct.
Boyles Law explains the theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyle%27s_law?wprov=sfla1
Entrained gasses are held in liquid suspension/solution when sufficient pressure force is applied.
Removal of pressure causes dissolved gasses to precipitation out of solution. Attractive forces between gas boundaries encourages the smaller bubbles to accumulate into bigger bubbles.
Bigger bubbles are more buoyant in the solutions so will rise to higher tension/specific gravity.
So a vacuum appied to a system has that effect.
Pressure Bleeding (brake doctor/ezebleed) forces a gas-free fluid into the system and that displaces fluid that contains dissolved gas and gas bubbles.
My principals are peer reviewed pukah.
Bubbles accumulate ____________________ Disclaimer: The comments above may be predicted text and not necessarily the opinion of MCN. |
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pdg |
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pdg World Chat Champion
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Karma :
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Posted: 10:30 - 07 May 2024 Post subject: Re: Leaking Nipple? |
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MCN wrote: |
My theory is 100% correct.
Boyles Law explains the theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyle%27s_law?wprov=sfla1
Entrained gasses are held in liquid suspension/solution when sufficient pressure force is applied.
Removal of pressure causes dissolved gasses to precipitation out of solution. Attractive forces between gas boundaries encourages the smaller bubbles to accumulate into bigger bubbles.
Bigger bubbles are more buoyant in the solutions so will rise to higher tension/specific gravity.
So a vacuum appied to a system has that effect.
Pressure Bleeding (brake doctor/ezebleed) forces a gas-free fluid into the system and that displaces fluid that contains dissolved gas and gas bubbles.
My principals are peer reviewed pukah.
Bubbles accumulate |
That would be true for a vacuum that acts on a closed system - but I have not seen such a device, all the ones I've seen sinply 'suck' through the bleed nipple, evacuating the aerated fluid and replacing it with fresh fluid from the reservoir using the relatively higher atmospheric pressure as the motive force. Theoretically the same action as a pressure bleeder with a shifted reference pressure, but hampered by the inevitably poor seal at the nipple.
I have seen one version that acts in reverse (the instructions state to use a remote reservoir at the bleed port to supply fresh fluid) but again, ingress of air at the poor nipple seal means it very rarely works at all. ____________________ Any and all advice given should not be followed - if you have to ask it means you don't know so get a man in to do it for you. |
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MCN |
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MCN Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 Karma :
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Posted: 10:43 - 07 May 2024 Post subject: Re: Leaking Nipple? |
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pdg wrote: | MCN wrote: |
My theory is 100% correct.
Boyles Law explains the theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyle%27s_law?wprov=sfla1
Entrained gasses are held in liquid suspension/solution when sufficient pressure force is applied.
Removal of pressure causes dissolved gasses to precipitation out of solution. Attractive forces between gas boundaries encourages the smaller bubbles to accumulate into bigger bubbles.
Bigger bubbles are more buoyant in the solutions so will rise to higher tension/specific gravity.
So a vacuum appied to a system has that effect.
Pressure Bleeding (brake doctor/ezebleed) forces a gas-free fluid into the system and that displaces fluid that contains dissolved gas and gas bubbles.
My principals are peer reviewed pukah.
Bubbles accumulate |
That would be true for a vacuum that acts on a closed system - but I have not seen such a device, all the ones I've seen sinply 'suck' through the bleed nipple, evacuating the aerated fluid and replacing it with fresh fluid from the reservoir using the relatively higher atmospheric pressure as the motive force. Theoretically the same action as a pressure bleeder with a shifted reference pressure, but hampered by the inevitably poor seal at the nipple.
I have seen one version that acts in reverse (the instructions state to use a remote reservoir at the bleed port to supply fresh fluid) but again, ingress of air at the poor nipple seal means it very rarely works at all. |
An incomplete seal around the bleed valve is not a main issue. The long path any outside air has to migrate to be pulled into the penis pump negates any worries.
It's not a space suit we're working on.
You go shade tree.
I'm going with the science and good engineering practice. ____________________ Disclaimer: The comments above may be predicted text and not necessarily the opinion of MCN. |
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pdg |
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pdg World Chat Champion
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MCN |
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MCN Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 Karma :
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Posted: 16:28 - 07 May 2024 Post subject: Re: Leaking Nipple? |
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pdg wrote: | MCN wrote: |
An incomplete seal around the bleed valve is not a main issue. The long path any outside air has to migrate to be pulled into the penis pump negates any worries.
It's not a space suit we're working on.
You go shade tree.
I'm going with the science and good engineering practice. |
Well sir, I shall respond with a hearty "meh".
I believe you are misunderstanding the practical problems with applying the (factually correct) science, and that makes me indifferent now.
I'll stay shade tree with my reliable pressure bleeder and you can engineering practice your hours away fighting with a non-functional evacuation pump system if it makes you happy. |
M8, I've tried Shade Tree. It for those who work in the dark.
I am an engineering marvel. Conversant in the many methods employed to peel an egg.
I prefer pressure Bleeding when available. It is hassle free.
I only explained what each principal involves.
I am not entirely convinced that you understood the mansplaination and may have chosen to critique the methods outlined.
I know everything there is that is pertaining to brake systems. From Rod, Cable, Hydraulic, Electronic, Inertial, Pneumatic, Eddy Current, Sole of shoe dabbing, sole of shoe jabbed betwixt rear tyre and frame.
And prayer.
One cannot bleed a brake system by applying one's ego.
Many have tried and fell by the wayside. ____________________ Disclaimer: The comments above may be predicted text and not necessarily the opinion of MCN. |
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