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truslack
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| Vincent |
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Vincent
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 Posted: 11:14 - 18 Oct 2012  Post subject: |
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Unbelievabubble  I think the OP has it right with the title and this copper just couldn't wait to use his new toy.  I wonder if he's proud of himself for tazering an innocent old aged blind stroke victim, he'd be hard pressed to find someone worse to tazer by mistake - maybe if the blind bloke had been female and was pregnant as well as blind?
I hope he's kicked out of the force..........or maybe the guys at the top will think - "Hhmmmmm, this boy shows promise, lets get him into the firearms division"
Claiming the cane looked like a sword is just ridiculous.
Their trumped up case against Mark Duggan doesn't seem to be going too well either, what with the Hillsborough cover up too, it's not been a very good couple of weeks for the boys in blue has it?
IMO, they're just as corrupt and greedy as the government. Maybe they need to place some child molesting DJs in the higher positions to get some order 
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Mushroom
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| Posted: 12:01 - 18 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Oh, he thought eh? That's alright then. |
No its not alright, but something being bad does not make the reason it took place irrelevant.
| Quote: | How about you try that one next time - "I thought it was 50mph here", "I thought the light was green". |
You will be prosecuted for incompetence or criminal intent, what's your point?
| Quote: | And that's not counting mistaking a white stick carried by a doddery old blind man for a samurai sword is plain ridiculous. The cop went for it without taking even a moment to look at what he was dealing with. |
If you were walking through some woods in Alaska in an area known to your self and the locals as "bear country" and the calm mood of the tranquil scene was suddenly replaced by the terror of a bear charging at you from your left, do you think your physiological and psychological responses would be any different at that moment if it was not really a bear, in fact its just some one dressed as one playing a prank?
Now what if you were out to hunt it, on information that it was a danger to the locals, the same situation happens, what do you do after the fraction of a second it takes to identify it as a bear? Your entire focus shifts to taking the shot, your no longer assessing what it is, its now a case of your response to it.
As soon as the mind perceived the item as a sword any mental process or information concerning its identification is over, attention goes to the persons response, it is possible to be so fired up, approach a situation with the wrong assumptions, even concerning what you are seeing, absolutely fail to read what is actually happening and react to it in ways that seem insane, even to your self when the dust has settled.
Think of how crazy you can go from a single remark when you have some theme or anxiety running through your mind, the two things aren't connected yet in that moment to you they are, and you respond exactly as so, the higher the anxiety's and pressures, the blinder people become and the more assumptions they use to navigate the world, its the same thing.
| Quote: | Did he get tasered too? Or did the cop who dealt with him handle it more professionally? |
It would be approached in the same way, verbal instruction to put the weapon down would be given and then the guy would be restrained before they asked about the reasons for having it, if the individual responded with a refusal or did not respond at all they would have looked to incapacitate him, remove the weapon, restrain him and then find out why he had it. Same process.
Hetzers right, you cant trust people with this level of training and situational awareness with firearms, some people are cooler under pressure than others but you cant be counted on until you have been and that takes time and experience. God knows how many lunatics who lose it under pressure are in the force, in fact I would not like to know 
Every one makes mistakes to one extent or another & there's no doubt in my mind they will make a mistake in the way they deal with this, instead of learning anything from it, fucking sucks. |
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| daemonoid |
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daemonoid
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| Posted: 14:17 - 18 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| Mad_Mushroom wrote: | No its not alright, but something being bad does not make the reason it took place irrelevant. |
I took exception to using it as an excuse rather than a reason.
| Mad_Mushroom wrote: | You will be prosecuted for incompetence or criminal intent, what's your point? |
You seem to have missed the point completely - if I do something wrong I get prosecuted, fined etc. if the police do they get a small slap on the wrists by there boss.
"I thought" is not an excuse that would wash from anyone but a cop committing a crime.
| Mad_Mushroom wrote: | Think of how crazy you can go from a single remark when you have some theme or anxiety running through your mind, the two things aren't connected yet in that moment to you they are, and you respond exactly as so, the higher the anxiety's and pressures, the blinder people become and the more assumptions they use to navigate the world, its the same thing. |
Snipped the nonsense about being in the woods in Alaska as it was a cop on a street in the UK. He had time to judge the situation but instead wanted to be the hero - it wasn't about fear for his life (he tasered the guy in the back) it was about all the brownie points he'd get for such an efficient take down.
And I don't go crazy from a single remark - I've learnt to control myself.
| Mad_Mushroom wrote: | It would be approached in the same way, verbal instruction to put the weapon down would be given and then the guy would be restrained before they asked about the reasons for having it, if the individual responded with a refusal or did not respond at all they would have looked to incapacitate him, remove the weapon, restrain him and then find out why he had it. Same process. |
Not the same process - a blind man was tasered in the back after a limited warning. Any claim of a warning being shouted should be taken with a pinch of salt anyway - they initially claimed the same before shooting a Brazilian in cold blood.
| Mad_Mushroom wrote: | Hetzers right, you cant trust people with this level of training and situational awareness with firearms, some people are cooler under pressure than others but you cant be counted on until you have been and that takes time and experience. God knows how many lunatics who lose it under pressure are in the force, in fact I would not like to know
Every one makes mistakes to one extent or another & there's no doubt in my mind they will make a mistake in the way they deal with this, instead of learning anything from it, fucking sucks. |
Are you a bit confused? You've gone from disagreeing with all my points and defending the cop's actions to the exact opposite.
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moonzoomer
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Vincent
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| U_W v2.0 |
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U_W v2.0
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| Posted: 15:39 - 18 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| Fruit'n'nut wrote: |
Not every cane is multi-coloured. Not every "samurai sword" is a katana or similar. Not every report made to the police is entirely accurate in every detail. |
really? you want to pick holes in a post made by a sword collector? would not be a smart move.
that was chosen as it reflects the most common type of sword the police are likely to come across, and the colour because it was the whitest image i could find.
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Mushroom
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Posted: 17:01 - 18 Oct 2012  Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I took exception to using it as an excuse rather than a reason. |
It was not being used as an excuse, its just that you find the situation so inexcusable any attempt to understand what so ever displayed towards those involved you "take exception at"
| Quote: | You seem to have missed the point completely - if I do something wrong I get prosecuted, fined etc. if the police do they get a small slap on the wrists by there boss.
"I thought" is not an excuse that would wash from anyone but a cop committing a crime. |
No, I have not missed your point, I do not think its right that police officers get a slap on the wrist while the general public get the book thrown at them. Its just that doing 50 in a 30 & running a red light aren't comparable to an officer making one hell of a mistake in the line of duty, incompetence or criminal intent should both meet a prosecution, our difference here is that you view this as a crime I view it as incompetence.
A crime would be if upon seeing the guy he took his taser out and shot him with no context for doing so, incompetence is failing to read the situation so badly that he not only shot the wrong man, it was a blind man a fair distance away from the suspect.
| Quote: | Snipped the nonsense about being in the woods in Alaska as it was a cop on a street in the UK. He had time to judge the situation but instead wanted to be the hero( Assumption )- it wasn't about fear for his life (he tasered the guy in the back) it was about all the brownie points he'd get for such an efficient take down.( Assumption ) |
For a start this is not somalia, its not common place for people to be walking down the street with samurai swords or machetes, if you do so in the UK its pretty much assumed you are out to hurt some body, Alaska or the streets of the UK, the mind doesn't really give a fuck where you are it will process a threat to the best of its abilities.
The threat they perceived was one to the public, that is how and why they approached the situation, upon getting no response whilst in such a hyped up state they had already confused the first thing of similar length in sight with an ancient Japanese weapon of mass destruction, they instantly made the leap in judgement that he was about to become a threat to them and dealt with the situation accordingly ( as the situation was in there minds )
| Quote: | This policeman knelt on me and dragged my arms round my back and handcuffed me so tight I've had bruises since.
I said 'you're hurting me, I'm blind' - and there's no way he could not have seen my stick on the floor. |
There is no way he never saw it, but his mind had already categorized it and to him further recognition to what it was in that moment held no importance in comparison to restraining him.
| Quote: | And I don't go crazy from a single remark - I've learnt to control myself. |
The key word there is learned.
| Quote: | Not the same process - a blind man was tasered in the back after a limited warning. |
Process: Verbally engage > if responsive & compliant restrain > if unresponsive or non compliant incapacitate and restrain. Blind deaf blue pink a process is a process and a copper will try to apply it, the difference comes down to the amount of experience they have to draw from and the handle they have over there own state of mind, giving them the flexibility to read the situation and ones responses instead of blindly following procedure whilst so hyped up they are blind to what's in front of them.
| Quote: | Any claim of a warning being shouted should be taken with a pinch of salt anyway - they initially claimed the same before shooting a Brazilian in cold blood. |
Funny that you should quote that, yet another instance of officers reacting to a situation that was not there due to what they thought they were dealing with.
| Quote: | Are you a bit confused? You've gone from disagreeing with all my points and defending the cop's actions to the exact opposite. |
Looking to understand is not defending or excusing ones actions, its looking for a cause, and as I have said its a shame those dealing with this will make a mistake in how they do so.
Not every one is suitable to be a police officer and deal with the situations they do, there mentality's and ways of being do not cut it, others, being suitable do not become consistent until they have experience to draw from.
Being unsuitable for a job is a big problem and unless its recognized across the board as a problem a solution can not be created, training testing and guidance designed to remove those unsuitable from the stack to a much greater degree than now would be a first step. Training that taught one to respond instead of instinctively react out of reflex or fear, to stay conscious of the situation and control it, instead of the situation taking a hold of your mind and losing it, regardless of the stress level.
| Quote: | He had time to judge the situation |
| Quote: | A specialist firearms officer who shot dead a colleague at close range on a police training exercise acted ''instinctively'', an inquest was told today.
Pc Ian Terry, 32, was gunned down holding an unloading gun as Greater Manchester Police's firearms unit practised in a disused factory in June 2008. The father-of-two was playing the role of a criminal fleeing in a car when he was hit with a single shot of Round Irritant Personnel ammunition.
Opening the inquest into his death, Manchester Coroner Nigel Meadows said the officer who shot him dead claimed he was unaware it was a ''shoot scenario''. The hearing was told the aim of the role-play was to immobilise the suspect vehicle by deflating its tyres and then pulling the pretend armed robbers out of the vehicle. Officers taking part in the exercise were told specifically to keep shotguns aimed downwards at all times, it was alleged.
'Chris said he was not aware he was in a shoot scenario. He said he acted instinctively to the threat of the gun from Pc Terry, although it was appreciated it was a training exercise.
''He later told an investigation carried out by the Independent Police Complaints Commission that he acted by instinct and had not intended to shoot a colleague. |
Was he after brownie points to? Perhaps he wanted to be a hero?
I am really not defending any one here, its just for the most part coppers who like to throw there weight around will do so with a bit of sense, out of sight, after dark, all but the most stupid will avoid actions that lead to national headlines within 24 hours. Most of our troubles in situations like this stem from the fact that the ability to respond correctly under pressure, in a way that takes account of a developing situation is not a commodity that can be bought in the labour market.
It needs to be trained and cultivated into one, clearly this is an area we fail in, we could sit on the side lines and condemn individual failures as they pop up from a never ending production line, or we could ask, why the fuck are people unsuitable to this degree making it to the front lines in the first place? |
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daemonoid
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| Posted: 17:22 - 18 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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Mushroom, you appear to be under the assumption I've said something I have not. Your whole post is in the tone of a counter-argument yet you've agreed on all my points.
At no point did I suggest that the cop was intending to taser a blind man, I agree he misread the situation due to incompetence.
Our views only differ on one semantic level - a crime is a crime whether the intention was there or not. Th fact that the cop did this through incompetence should in no way take away from the fact he should be disciplined through the courts - perhaps it should be reflected in his sentencing but there's very little chance of it getting that far.
I mentioned De Menezes because it was a very similar incident as you pointed out. In that case it turns out it was completely acceptable to be wrong on all levels of the hierarchy and kill someone. I expect in this case it will be the same - slap on the wrists and carry on; that is what I object to. Mindless thugs primed for such incidents being entrusted with our care...
Here's another example:
https://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/24/ipcc-upholds-protester-complaint-police
Met think it's ok to assault, don't offer charges to the cps and the CIU gets away with it based on a 6 month time out.
We can go into examples all day, but the results are the same - the police are above the law and whether their actions are through incompetence or intention they get away with it - that's why I complain about these stories and that's why I worry for the UK in general.
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| Posted: 19:16 - 18 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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I was always under the impression these sorts of weapons were deployed as a result of an immediate threat??
Just another case of a trigger happy copper, incidentally the sword wielding maniac was never found 
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| Posted: 10:56 - 19 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| Eggs Benedict wrote: | I was always under the impression these sorts of weapons were deployed as a result of an immediate threat??
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What you and I don't know, and what isn't being reported - but will be investigated - is how many other members of the public were nearby and whether or not the officer believed they might be at risk, if the man with the (believed) sword was not arrested but was instead allowed to continue on his way.
| Eggs Benedict wrote: |
incidentally the sword wielding maniac was never found |
He was located and arrested elsewhere, if you read some of the BBC or Guardian reports into the same incident, amongst others.
| daemonoid wrote: | | Fruit'n'nut wrote: | That's not always true though, at least as far as law and the courts are concerned, where an intent may well be a requirement to prove an offence. |
That may be how he gets away with it...
If I were to see a 'sword wielding blind man' and leap to the defence of my fellow citizens by incapacitating him I would most definitely be convicted.
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Definitely? OTOH you might well have such a good defence that you would never see a court. It would depend on the individual circumstances, your reasoning and beliefs about the circumstances as well as any other witness evidence.
FWIW, I am pretty sure that if I used force on somebody I would intend to assault them for a lawful purpose, because of factors such as their behaviour, reaction (or lack of) to the presence of police officers, reaction (or lack of) to verbal instructions (that's part of the conflict management model all UK police are taught), the numbers of other people present, the numbers of police officers present etc. I'd also be able to say under which legislation I was acting, by using force - usually s.3 Criminal Law Act 1967, in conjunction with PACE 1984. There's also common law to consider.
That said, are you aware of where Taser sits in terms of the levels of force used by police in the UK? It's not just below traditional firearms, but is on par with PAVA (pepper spray)/CS; the idea being that the effects of Taser are less debilitating in the mid- to long-term than (for example) being hit by a metal baton. TBH, Taser effects are much more short term than those of even PAVA which takes about 15 minutes to completely wear off. You can be functional in much less time.
There's no data on the chronic or acute state of health of the people involved before they interacted with police, no data on their levels of intoxication with alcohol or drugs, and no data on what contribution their own actions made to their cause of death.
If all you want to do is make a dubious point about a lack of convictions, say so, and I'll stop trying to make a further contribution to the thread.
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Im-a-Ridah
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| Posted: 12:27 - 19 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| Fruit'n'nut wrote: |
The officer presumably thought he was carrying a weapon though, or he wouldn't have used his Taser. (Unless he really was just a bully-boy .)
What about the man who was arrested a short distance away as a result of the same incident, and who was carrying a sword?
If somebody's carrying a weapon in public, what do you think it's being carried for? |
It may well be for legitimate purposes. I've walked around the street with steel and aluminum bars before, since if I purchase one, I would quite like to take it home, as is common when shopping. Walking to the shops is great exercise, more people should do it. Some people carry knives simply by forgetting they still have it on them after work or doing something in the garage.
| daemonoid wrote: |
The public ill feeling towards the police is not something that can be fixed overnight but the appearance of being unaccountable needs sorting. The force is in crisis and public confidence is low, ordinary people feel persecuted and unprotected. |
Completely agree. |
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Posted: 14:02 - 19 Oct 2012  Post subject: |
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| Fruit'n'nut wrote: | You're also personalising the argument, when you have never met me and don't really know anything much about me at all other than in very general terms. |
We know that you're trying to say that it's reasanable for a copper armed with an "incredibly dangerous" Tazer to not be able to spot a white cane by daylight.
Yes, you have a hard job to do, but defending coppers that clearly aren't up to it doesn't make yours any easier. While Captain Zap there was busy cleaning up his mess, who was lumbered with actually confronting the real sword armed drunk?
On the policing by consent issue, that's long since passed. In my (not entirely uninformed) opinion, we have have an increasingly edgy, confrontational and paramilitary police force obsessed with following procedure and hitting targets rather than doing the right thing. And sometimes the popular thing is the right thing: the police are the public and the public are the police. Sound familiar?
The more powers that the police are given, the more that they abuse or mis-apply them, and the more that they are armed and kept visibly at arm's length from the (actual) public, the more you'll find yourself in a three way contest with criminals and the law abiding.
That chap who got locked up for sporting a t-shirt mocking those two plonks who got slotted might have offended many people, but he also spoke for others as well. Not me, not yet, but don't expect me to step in if you're on the losing end of a tussle either.
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| Posted: 14:42 - 19 Oct 2012 Post subject: |
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| keggyhander wrote: |
The mere idea that this is something that should even remotely be a consideration when shopping, shows that coppers are oxygen-thieving wanksplats. |
Well done. Im-a-Ridah suggested the scenario. If you can find me a news story that can show people in the UK have been arrested for buying metal bars from the shops and walking home with them, then I'll eat my hat.
| daemonoid wrote: |
I'm not trying to personalise the argument at all, sorry if it came across that way.
I don't know you, but I doubt you've arrested or investigated a fellow officer. Is that an incorrect assumption? I bet too that you've seen more than one break the law (probably nothing as bad as we're discussing here, but in some small way), or is that an incorrect assumption too?
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If you're not trying to personalise an argument, don't write things like "I doubt you'd ever have the balls to ... "
No, I've never arrested or investigated another police officer. I don't work for a Professional Standards department, whose job it is to carry out such tasks and ensure the integrity of serving officers and staff. Every force has one, and has done so for decades. I've read mainstream news reports within the last month of police officers being arrested by Professional Standards from their force, some after sting operations and weeks/months of surveillance.
None of my colleagues have to my knowledge ever unlawfully assaulted somebody, stolen, perjured themselves or done anything else dishonest. All know that they can be reported by colleagues either at the time or anonymously either to a supervisor or to Professional Standards, or they can be reported/made subject of a complaint by members of the public.
| Rogerborg wrote: |
Yes, you have a hard job to do, but defending coppers that clearly aren't up to it doesn't make yours any easier. |
"Clearly" genuinely doesn't enter into it at this stage IMO. None of us commenting here know enough about the situation to justify such a comment or to justify a lynch-mob mentality about the incident.
| Rogerborg wrote: |
those two plonks who got slotted
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Charming 
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 11 years, 233 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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