Pros and Cons of the 600s

[Alex A]

Hello all,

I haven't posted before but I have lurked for some time I'm a (relatively) new biker: I passed my CBT in August and have done 5000 miles on a Honda XR125L since. These were not luxury miles, they are primarily commuter miles (on A roads).

Anyhow, I'm going to do a Direct Access test in the next few months and I'm in the process of considering which 600cc model to get. Money isn't a major issue, as I'm happy to spend £4000+ on a mint SH or new model.

Being quite a tall chap, and a keen mountain biker, I must say that I *really* like the upright ride that an enduro/off road style bike gives. I know some people will be of conflicting opinion, but this is a given for me.

What I'm considering:

- KTM 640 LC4 enduro or the Adventure model.
- Husqvarna TE610
- BMW F650 GS

I will be doing between 150-300 miles a week between October and May. Over Summer I'll be doing less commuting but probably some 400+ mile trips. An annual mileage would be approx. 8000-10000 miles. I'm quite open to learning to be a bit of a mechanic, but overall it must be a generally reliable bike. Lightweight is important to me, as is accelleration and fun. 95% of riding will be done on road, but I require off road capability.

Anyhow, I'm not looking for outright recommendations, I'd just like some (fairly objective) comments on each of the above bikes in terms of speed, fun, comfort, reliablility, maintenance and resale value.

Open to other similar recommendations.

[MarJay]

If you're going to do any kind of mileage (IE need any kind of reliability) Forget the husky. And to some extent forget the KTM too.

The BM will perhaps not be quite so exciting as those bikes, but it will be as reliable as bikes get and it won't let you down. It will also be more comfortable, and have much longer service intervals (in miles rather than hours) and servicing will be affordable.

I'd also consider some less off road biassed 'off road' style bikes such as the Suzuki 650 V strom. its a bit more powerful, a lot smoother (being a twin rather than a single) and won't vibrate you to death. It is more powerful, but it is also forgiving and ideal for someone who has just passed their test, as long as you are tall enough for it.

Also having reasonable wheel sizes you should be able to get more road oriented (read grippy) tyres for it. If you're never actually going to go off road, its the one to go for IMO.
____________________
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[Alex A]

The Suzuki looks like a nice bike. But not what I'm looking for. I will be using whatever I choose for the occasional off road trip, so it must be at least competent and much lighter than the 197kg (dry) Suzuki. A 150kg dry weight is a maximum.

How would the KTM 640 stack up? Is the Adventure model any more reliable than the enduro model? Or is it all much of a muchness between KTM models. I must say I love the looks and the philosophy of their bikes.

the BMW would be a definite concession. But if it means serious reliability and service cost benefits, I'm willing to go with the BMW instead of the more 'fun' alternatives.

Or is it worth forgetting the idea considering the mileage I do and just going for a Yamaha XT660X or similar?

[G]

Had you considered getting two bikes if you've got a bit to spend?

That way you get a cheapish road biased bike and a decent off roader.
Generally the better off road bikes are either low powered or heavy.

With £4k you could spend £1k on a reliable road bike and get a very decent off roader for £3k.

[Alex A]

That's quite interesting. Do the supermoto singles not make good road bikes? Do more classic or sports bikes beat them on manouverability and accelleration (for the same CC)? I'd have thought not.

I could get a single with supermoto and off road wheels.

Insurance is not cheap for a new biker. I'd rather not insure and tax two bikes if i can avoid it.

[G]

It's more the service intervals and reliability.

The specs of my Husaberg are decent 112kg with a claimed 50hp or so and lots of midrange oomph - thanks partly to the high centre of gravity we're talking off-the-power 3rd gear wheelies. Top speed is around 110 with the supermoto gearing.

Nice bike, however 10 hour service intervals would be ridiculous for using daily.

Go up to a more reliable bike and you can easily be adding on an extra 50% of the weight.

So, if you go for a bike that'll handle the distance, you'll be sacrificing quite a bit of off road ability.

As far as acceleration goes, most sports bikes of the same cc will easily beat an off road styled bike. They tend to make a lot more power and the lower centre of gravity means less wheelies so more forward go. Along with the more power, longer gearing means less gear changes which also waste time.
Modern 600cc sports bikes have a first gear that finishes at around 75mph and can have the front wheel hovering right up until that point.

[Alex A]

Thanks. So why is it that the singles, especially the lighter ones, have such small service intervals? (Apart from the beemer, apparently).

I must say 1st gear 75mph is insane. Especially considering my 125 screeches at 15mph. That's a different kettle of fish though.

I *really* dislike the typical sports bike posture. I want a high centre of gravity and a high riding position. So the best twin that delivers that is?

[G]

Basically, if you're making a bike really light, you've got to take the weight off somewhere - lighter components tend to be less durable, so need more regular work.

As you work down to something a CRF450, you're talking basically the off road equivalent of say a 250cc GP bike. Move up to the enduro bikes and they're not that far off the motocross bikes.

How about a KLE500 for daily stuff and something like the Husaberg 501 I've got for fun?
KLE should be got from under £1k, getting you a very nice enduro bike with the rest.

[Alex A]

Yeah understood. It's a good idea. Will have to have a think about it.

I think I'd rather draw a compromise for insurance sake, and just go for something like the BMW, which should be reliable, off road capable (it doesn't have to be spectacular off road), be good for a lot of miles, hold it's value and be fairly quick too.

Or am I missing a trick?

I don't really like the idea of spending 75% of the budget on something I'd use 5% of the time.

[G]

The BMW won't be too great off road really.

If you like the idea of the BMW, you could reverse the percentages and get a £3k road bike and something like an XR250, or maybe even a KTM EXC 2 stroke - the 300cc ones should be making similar go to a 500-600cc 4 stroke!

Definitely worth getting some quotes for two bikes on one policy (sometimes hardly effects it) - this way you do get the 'best of both worlds').

[honey dog]

here's one to throw into your pot.

an XT600E. good bike on the road with long service intervals, but they are also quite good off road. that is so long as you're not planning any motorcross events

the are a touch heavy compared to more serious off road machines, but it is lighter than the BM, and more capable off road.
play with the gearing a bit, and you can have it which ever way you want it

[MarJay]

[Rhino]

I've got a KTM 640 Supermoto, and would definately recommend one. There seems to be some myths surrounding SM - high maintenance, slow, unreliable etc.

Service intervals on mine are 3000 miles (not 6 hours etc ), I've had it dyno'd and it is knocking out 50+ bhp (with new twin race cans I spent £110 on - hardly tuned to hell), and having dropped one tooth on the front sprocket, accelerates like a bastard and still capable of ton plus speeds, and as a town bike(plus twisties), it is superb. They also drop better than other bikes.

Just last week, I done a 06 Fireblade on two mornings going into work. Not because I'm a better rider, but because it was raining, and while he was scared to open the throttle and unleash 150+ bhp on the wet road, I was wheeling away from lights and razzing him on corners and bends. KTM has better tractable power, and you feel everthing the tyre is doing. He was good in long straight lines though - what skill!!

If you got the KTM, you can swap the off-road wheels for road wheels and you're ready to go again.

Ultimately, get yourself a test on the three bikes you mentioned at the begining, and see what you think. I'd stick with one bike, as insurance could be a problem. Don't rush your decision, you've got the XR til you find the bike you want. Good luck mate.

[Alex A]

Thanks Rhino.

Also a very useful post. Only having ridden a 125 it's difficult to envisage the advantages and disadvantages in practice. But as I say outright speed isn't the most important thing to me: Light, nimble handling, quick accelleration and cornering, and some light off road capability are all more important. Reliability is key, and 3000 mile services would mean one every 4 months, which isn't too bad.

I must say I am tempted by the prospect of having something like a Yamaha FZ6 S2 as a main road bike, and a second hand KTM 250 EXC as a 'fun' bike. I'm not sure about the insurance though, and I love the look and format of the KTM 640s.

[Rhino]

No problem mate. I was gonna offer you a go on mine, but see you're in Lancaster. You can, as long as you come to Kent!

I don't know too much about the smaller capacity off-roaders, but you can get 500cc four strokes that are good on and off road, the 600's being a bit big for decent off-roading, but I think you should go for a big single like the KTM or XT Honey dog mentions, if you are going off-road only occaisionally. It doesn't matter if they aren't the best off-roaders, cos I'm assuming like me you wouldn't be able to tell, or use a good off-roader to it's maximum anyway.

You say you like the "prospect of having something like a Yamaha FZ6 S2 as a main road bike, and a second hand KTM 250 EXC as a 'fun' bike". Why not have a bike that's fun on the road too? It would be cheaper too, because you're only taxing/ insuring/ serving one bike.

[G]

The KTM 640 is pretty lardy – with a claimed weight of 149kg, we’re talking a bit under 20kg away from the latest litre class sports bikes I believe.
Personally, no offence, this doesn’t really come into the realms of a ‘super’moto for me. Ok, not as bad as something like the new XT660, which is sold as a ‘supermoto’, despite being 179kg, which puts above the weight of some ‘hypermotos’ and firmly well in the ‘commutermoto’ or ‘tourmoto’ categories .
Have a look at the KTM EXC range – these weigh a lot less, but have much shorter service intervals. Losing 37kgs (about ¼ of the weight of the bike!) from the total weight is going to have an impact somewhere

I haven’t ridden that specific model but have ridden similar. Compared to a similar cc sports bike, I’m sure it accelerates relatively poorly – when ridden in a similar manner, of course.
‘Beating’ that fireblade may have been due to the bike, but I’d suggest much more thanks to how you handle the bike in comparison to how the other rider handled theirs.

I’ve ridden a (claimed) 138kg bike, as well as a variety of lighter ones off road. While the heavier bike still did ok, I definitely prefer the lighter ones for the feeling you are riding the bike, rather than the other way around! Also, definitely nicer picking up a lighter bike.

I don’t see why insurance has to be a problem these days as some companies are quite flexible, though less good for the young. Two separate insurance policies can also be useful if you do have to make a claim – that way you still have one lot of NCB that’s useable.
Also, two bikes offers other advantages; if one has broken down or needs servicing, you have a ‘back up’, though I wouldn’t want to be regularly using a more tuned ‘proper’ enduro bike daily.

[Alex A]

Been reading through here.

How about an Aprilia 450/550 twin? How do these perform? And reliability?

[G]

On paper they sound like they may be the best of both worlds.
However, the claimed 60 hour service intervals I've heard claimed are a bit slack and you should really do things more regularly.
Also, I believe that 60 hour service is pretty significant, with a lot of expensive-ish stuff needing done.

[lilredmachine]

Plus it may be difficult to locate one for 4k. They seem to hold their value quite well.

May I suggest something like the XR650? It's a bit fatter than the comp supermoto/motocross machines but it has deep reserves of torque and when supermoto'd is ballistic fun.

Frequent oil changes will give it almost complete reliability too, at least far better than the strung out comp models.
____________________
Bikes: too many, too much for one man to maintain anyway.

[Alex A]

Is the XR650 discontinued now? Can't find anything about it on the Honda official site.

So, for a single bike:

Husqvarna - Simply too impractical and maintenance demanding for the mileage I do.
KTM - More comfortable, looks great, still 3000mile service intervals, one cylinder not too powerful (particularly in the upper range).
BMW - The safe and not so fun option. Great build and very reliable though.
Aprilia 450/550 twin - Ideal? But expensive to buy and to service.
Honda XR650 - Very reliable (going from my current Honda), cheap parts (?), perhaps more comfortable for longer journeys.

But is the Honda as fun as the KTM or Aprilla?

[G]

I believe the 650 isn't the most reliable of bikes, but better than the serious competition enduro bikes. You could get a Honda CRF450, but just because it's a Honda wouldn't mean it's reliable.
It will be less powerful than the KTM and only weigh a bit less I suspect.

Any bike will be reliable if you keep it well serviced and treat it properly. However, it's whether you'd want to go to the effort for something like Aprilia or the Husky. Worth checking up the service intervals of the Husky.

I suspect you'll have decent fun on any of the slightly lighter bikes on the road with supermoto style setup. On the road, I doubt you'll notice the difference in weight too much unless you want to ride like a complete nutter.

However, off road the weight will be much more apparant I suspect.

[Alex A]

This I really like:

https://w1.bikepics.com/pics/2003%5C12%5C17%5Cbikepics-89171-full.jpg

Final thought, CCM? R30? Are they still manufacturing?

[Hooky]

[Alex A]

I'm 22. Piles are not a concern.

That Honda is fugly as sin!

You have a KTM? Any problems?

[Rhino]

Don't worry about the seat on the Husky, if it's like the KTM, it'll either soften quickly, or your arse'll harden. CCM has a hard-core following cos their British, and engine reliablity and parts shouldn't be an issue, as it's a Suzuki I believe.

I'd avoid the Aprillia. It's supposed to be an awesome bike, but too race-focused and tempramental for everyday riding, from what I hear.

BMW - why not just come out and get a Pan European?

Honda. Hmm. It's a Honda, you know what to expect.

As G says, the smaller KTM's are lighter and better for off-road stuff, but you said occaisional off-road. To get the best out of them on road, I believe you'd need to re-valve forks/ bigger brake disc and new caliper, 17" rim wheels etc. and you'd lose M-way cruising speed to bigger singles.

G - I definately didn't beat the sports bike due to my riding - please trust me on that. It wasn't my intention to imply that supermoto's are faster than sports bikes. Just better suited to city riding in real world conditions, ie comfort, wet weather, pot-holes etc.