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Dyslexia, an unfair advantage in education?

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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 17:08 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon B wrote:
Don i'm with you here.

At our uni not only does a dyslexic student get an extra hour to do a typical 3 hour exam. They also get to do it on a computer.

I'm much faster at typing on the computer and also why don't I get tippex to cross out a word decently if I spell something wrong by hand? It's not like I have a "backspace" button on my keyboard ANNNNNNDDDDD when I am writing in an exam my hand fricking kills!


WTF? A FUCKING COMPUTER? Jesus, if only, I can easily pump out 100 words a minute, and i dont even have to look at the keyboard anymore - to think how much more I could have written into my genetics exam the other week had I been able to type it out......Crying or Very sad

An I'm with you on the hand pain, which is another point in that if I was given an extra half hour, maybe my writing would be somewhat more eligible since I am not scrambling to get everything down on paper in the alloted time.

Im willing to bet Branson didnt get extra time in tests.....or a computer....an he did alrite!!!

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Dragonfly
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PostPosted: 17:11 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only thing that gets me about this is the amount of people that claim to have it that use text talk. I seen loads saying the are dylexic and have to use words like "wud" OR "wood" instead of the proper term "would" I dont think thats dylexia. I do except people have it but wish others wouldnt claim they did when they dont. They are just lazy spellers, lazy texters or cant spell at all. I aint perfect by the way and thats not dylexia I am just a bit thick in grammar and spelling sometimes. Least I admit that.
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TheDonUK
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PostPosted: 17:12 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon B wrote:
At our uni not only does a dyslexic student get an extra hour to do a typical 3 hour exam. They also get to do it on a computer.


Wow, If i could hand write 5 pages in 2 hours in an exam i could easily manage 15 on a computer if i had enough to say on the subject. Plus we so rarely hand write things now when it comes to exams my hand is absolutely thobbing by the end...

I mean technically i can be classes as disabled due to problems i have with my leg, but i dident even declare it, i suppose im a fool, everyone else plays the system left right and centre but my pride doesent allow me to...

If someone is clearly severely dyslexic i suppose some extra time is in order, its just as i said, anecdotally all the dyslexics i know are highly intellgent and in my opinion borderline/fake dyslexics, yet they gain this massive advantage, Oh and the disabled student bursaries wouldent half help with rent and the bike...
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arry
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:

Very true, but from the original post it appears he is commenting that some are given a quite possibly unfair advantage to compensate for a perceived disadvantage.

If the time taken is an important factor in what the qualification puts someone in a position to do then it is unfair to increase the time for one group. If it is not important then there is no real need for the time limit of the exam to at all challenging for anyone taking it.

All the best

Keith


Again, completely agree with you Keith - there is the possibility of them (the dyslexics) having an unfair advantage, but then equally there's just as much chance they still are disadvantaged compared to the majority. It swings both ways so to speak. What I'm saying is that if you compare yourself to the 'norm' rather than the exceptions then it all balances out in reality - yes, these people might well take advantage, that is a possibility, but it's not really a risk to 'you' individually.

In fact, arguably, you could say that all the dyslexics in the country actually assist more average students to gain higher grades because of the fact that grade pass marks are set by national average on % basis, so if there's 10% 'thickos mascherading as dyslexics' on the course, they'll wipe out and actually drag the % pass mark down for the rest of us clever, witty art loving types who drink high quality red wine in the evening, rather than Carling or Chardonnay (or even worse both mixed together)
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

dragonfly wrote:
Only thing that gets me about this is the amount of people that claim to have it that use text talk. I seen loads saying the are dylexic and have to use words like "wud" OR "wood" instead of the proper term "would" I dont think thats dylexia. I do except people have it but wish others wouldnt claim they did when they dont. They are just lazy spellers, lazy texters or cant spell at all. I aint perfect by the way and thats not dylexia I am just a bit thick in grammar and spelling sometimes. Least I admit that.


I think people who are genuinely dyslexic yet can text talk run purely off phonetics. This of course would not bode well in an assessed exam paper, thus where the problems like for them. The genuine ones mind. Not the "I have a little trouble spelling" kind.

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Mister James
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PostPosted: 17:25 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

I view the Dyslexia industry in the same way I do the ME brigade, or the Race Relations industry.

I'm sure there are plenty of genuine cases, and that it is indeed an unpleasant condition - I just don't believe that most people who claim to have it actually do.

Instead we get the usual scenario where millions of people use a minority's problems to get a bandwagon rolling, then lots of do-gooders get involved to make a name/living for themselves by turning a minor learning disability into A National Issue.

EDIT: I've also never understood the extra time in exams - should thick people get more time than me because they aren't as smart?
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JonB
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PostPosted: 17:28 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet the hayfever I suffer during the exam period hampers me more than being unable to spell a word longer than 10 letters. Sad
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arry
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PostPosted: 17:29 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon B wrote:
I bet the hayfever I suffer during the exam period hampers me more than being unable to spell a word longer than 10 letters. Sad


I suppose that applies equally to those with sweaty bollock syndrome
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Mister James
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PostPosted: 17:30 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm reminded of a Chris Rock skit about people trying to find excuses for white school kids massacring each other in the playground: "Whatever happened to just being plain crazy!?".

We live in a sanitised social-worker's paradise at times, where everyone is equal, and where no mistake or failure can be your own fault.
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 18:01 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said before, dyslexia has been the term used to cover a wide spectrum of learning issues, just because you learn and retain information in a different way does not make you thick as long as others understand the way you learn,
If you can only learn in French does it make you thick if all the questions are in English? what you need top do is translate it from English to French then back again. This is just another way of learning that the system isn't set up for. It has been branded as dyslexia and people get hooked on the term. But then there are some people are just thick, or their key skill hasn't ben found.
Take ice skating, i couldn't ice skate straight off, but I learnt how to ski and from that went back and was able ti ice skate better than those who did learn straight away. Was I a thick ice skater or di I have to learn in a different way? It is that need to learn in a different way that we are calling dyslexia.

I do agree though that some are being labelled dyslexic who are just too lazy to learn and want to blame some else for it.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 18:14 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
Again, completely agree with you Keith - there is the possibility of them (the dyslexics) having an unfair advantage, but then equally there's just as much chance they still are disadvantaged compared to the majority.


Completely depends on the level of positive discrimination that they are given. As I cannot see how you can realistically manage to set an amount of extra time that each individual would require I don't think it would work out in any way fair and just.

arry wrote:
In fact, arguably, you could say that all the dyslexics in the country actually assist more average students to gain higher grades


Quite the opposite I would think. The thickies who have managed to blag longer exam time on a possibly dubious claim to dyslexia means that they would get a higher mark than the equally dim who didn't manage to blag it. Hence increased marks.

All the best

Keith
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 18:36 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Not sure who else has been tempted by this thread to do a so called online test for it.

However this page has a basic list of question.

Seems a bit odd. After all with Do you find it difficult to say the months of the year forwards in a fluent manner?, how can you tell. Something that could easily be regarded as difficult to learn, but once you have done it you probably remember it much the same as a song (at least I do, possibly why I wouldn't stand a hope in hell of reciting it backwards at any reasonable speed).

All the best

Keith
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Visitor Q
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PostPosted: 18:50 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have ADHD. Under extreme pressure to pay attention I often don't, ie revision and exams.

I got jack shit extra time. I still got a 2.1

Don't really see how it is fair, but then I resent all the buggers with the temperament to memorise /everything/ from the material and extra research.

They can't apply it for shit, but just remembering... ? Sorted.

It'll catch up to them in later life (I hope), but until then it devalues my degree.
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igiyf
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PostPosted: 18:55 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

that almost made me fall off the chair
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Visitor Q
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PostPosted: 19:40 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

mad_man wrote:
that almost made me fall off the chair


My post?
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Fnatic
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PostPosted: 19:53 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

At GCSE level in my secondary school the 'slow' kids got about 30-45 minutes extra depending on the original exam length.

Now I'm sorry but GCSE is supposed to assess every one on an even playing field so by giving people more time aren't you trying to get a balance of results and not the true picture.

I thought fuck it and asked for the same treatment but they refused as my target grade was too high.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 19:54 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhostRider wrote:


I think people who are genuinely dyslexic yet can text talk run purely off phonetics. This of course would not bode well in an assessed exam paper, thus where the problems like for them. The genuine ones mind. Not the "I have a little trouble spelling" kind.

GhostRider


L8r m8 is not phonetic, it is a learnt language substituting letters for numbers. If you can learn a language that substitutes letters for numbers why can't you learn a language that uses just letters?
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
GhostRider wrote:


I think people who are genuinely dyslexic yet can text talk run purely off phonetics. This of course would not bode well in an assessed exam paper, thus where the problems like for them. The genuine ones mind. Not the "I have a little trouble spelling" kind.

GhostRider


L8r m8 is not phonetic, it is a learnt language substituting letters for numbers. If you can learn a language that substitutes letters for numbers why can't you learn a language that uses just letters?


Yeah thats fair enough, I was meaning more "i cud not b bovverd to rite proplee cuz im a fick kunt"

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Robby
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PostPosted: 22:26 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

GhostRider wrote:
Yeah thats fair enough, I was meaning more "i cud not b bovverd to rite proplee cuz im a fick kunt"


Commonly referred to as ebay English. You know from reading it that the FSH is going to be stamps with receipts, the recent service was 2 years ago, the little ding means a door is missing, and the boot is full of maimed puppies.

And because of this, the vehicle commands a lower price. Come across as an idiot and I'll treat you like one.
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igiyf
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PostPosted: 23:15 - 14 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the attitudes in this thread are the usual close minded crap i expect to see,but there is one poster here ( normal i refer to posters like him as disinfo agents..this guy,well i call him a dis-anything agent)

Anyway in this thread he seems to be at the top when it comes to understanding,funny how experience changes attitudes hey.

What is school anyway?The institution of creativity?Designed to build up kids to stand on there own feet and learn how to use his/her mind to the top of there possible ability's?Sadly not,for the most part its focused on providing instruction,not learning,most teaching methods give a slow and boring input of information to the student that have nothing to do with the students immediate interests,most of the time no real thinking is involved on the part of the student,no stimulation,how many hours did you spend copying from a white board of book?

Inputting information is supposed to do everything,and the student? All they have to do is binge on the information then purge everything thats gone into the head back up onto an exam paper at the end of the year,information goes in,information comes out,and remembering it all is the highest form of success,now add stress and social concerns to the situation,time pressures,fuck all support,examinations,oh and of course a pretty big disinterest for most.

The schooling system is not there to help you flourish as an individual and maximize your ability,its there to program you to take a job in society and keep society ticking over.

And the ones who's learning(intake of information) styles are inline with what the school has to offer take the most on board,and if the interest is there go on to build complex working models of subjects created from the instructions gained in education,to become society's doctors,engineers,scientists..of which just a few go on to expand those working models with fresh developments.

And for the ones who's learning style is not inline with what the school has to offer?Well they take on a new education,most of the time the subject of not giving a fuck..loss of interest appears to be fast,some create self limiting beliefs and support them for a life time,others scrape through and make the most of the ability they appear to have and don't make the grade to be a big player in society,others throw chairs at the teachers and others don't go.

And for the dyslexics,the ones who do have structural differences in the part of there brains that process reading and writing,needing in some cases a completely different approach in learning style..what do they get?oooo they get a few hours a week of specialized education,30-60 minutes extra in an exam and some times a laptop so they can cut the difficulty's of hand writing out of the loop and focus 100% on the information..and what do they get:lol:

Quote:
WTF? A FUCKING COMPUTER? Jesus, if only, I can easily pump out 100 words a minute


Yes a computer would do you good but why are you SO OUT RAGED someone with learning difficulty's get one:lol:

Quote:
I mean technically i can be classes as disabled due to problems i have with my leg, but i dident even declare it, i suppose im a fool, everyone else plays the system left right and centre but my pride doesent allow me to...If someone is clearly severely dyslexic i suppose some extra time is in order, its just as i said, anecdotally all the dyslexics i know are highly intellgent and in my opinion borderline/fake dyslexics, yet they gain this massive advantage, Oh and the disabled student bursaries wouldent half help with rent and the bike


Let me get this straight,technically you are disabled due to problems with your leg you feel your a fool for not declaring it as
"every one is playing the system left right and center"and the disabled student bursaries would"t pay your rent and i am presuming finance your transport.Your leg issues have no effect upon your ability to perform in an exam,how ever if you were dyslexic this would reduce your ability to perform,yet you expecting the disabled student bursaries to help you with an issue that has nothing to do with your ability to be educated or perform in the exam room is ok?

But for a dyslexic to have the aid they need for a problem that does effect there ability in an examination room is "gaining a massive advantage"


Quote:
If someone is clearly severely dyslexic i suppose some extra time is in order, its just as i said, anecdotally all the dyslexics i know are highly intellgent and in my opinion borderline/fake dyslexics


The lack of understanding is your problem,it has nothing to do with intelligence,just because they are intelligent does not mean they are fake,and just because its not severe does not mean they don't need or deserve help perhaps you would have to be a cripple before the disabled student bursaries helped you out,or perhaps you could get over your pride(fear),declare it to the right authority's and receive the help you feel you need?

But has it not even Crossed your mind that them having a laptop and other aid has put them in a position to get through there problems and thats whats allowed them to express there intelligence?

As for Mrs Brandson,he did crap in school but by the age of 15 had started and failed two business ventures moving on to his first successful business at age 16.

Quote:
We live in a sanitised social-worker's paradise at times, where everyone is equal, and where no mistake or failure can be your own fault.


This is good on a comical level but don't you want to live in a world in which every ones ability's are bought out,even if an individualized approach is needed instead of blanket education?
Its hardly a case of a fat teen with 4 kids and a self inflicted crack and dole habit at 19 with no future is it.Why not find the fault and work to over come it if the person is willing and not to blame for being at fault?

There is more than likely are those who mutter "im dyslexic" as an excuse..but for the Most part,they aren't self proclaimed,there found to be suffering along the way you don't say "i think i am dyslexic" and get a special card for extra time in the exam room, for me looking back it took about 8 months and a lot of testing before they told my parents i was dyslexic,i was in year 5 and so far behind the class in terms of reading and writing it was funny Laughing

6 months of two mornings a week with a specialized teacher
i was exactly where i should have been for my age group,secondary school year 7-11 set one for English and Sciences, i had a laptop for 6 months in year 9 it helped,missed 8 months of year 11 got the course work and revision done 3 weeks before the exams and walked away with C"s in all..used 20 mins extra time in English lit because i fell to sleep and 5 mins extra time in all others to just have one more look over the paper.

My friend who was worse off than me used all his extra time got good results and he would"t of gained them without the help,last time i heard of him he was in uni, now this is the part you don't get,and to be honest if you lot had a gram of working intelligence in you that was not given to you in instruction by the education system,you would of picked up straight away.

The hole exam system is wrong None of it should be timed its not a bomb disposal "lets assess your nerves under pressure" test is it,its an assessment of the knowledge gained through out the course and nothing more if you spend one hour completing a paper or ten,in relation to the world means fuck all,if you enter the room with nothing but writing instruments and complete that exam paper with nothing other than whats in your mind,well you passed the course.

Time restraints are really a complete waste of time and resources,resources being the money spent on educating those who fall under pressure and fail, you should take your exam and have the time you started and finished recorded,and when you get your results you should have the time it took you to complete the exam next to it.

A+one hour fifty eight minutes.
b+ two hours 20 minutes.

Its when you go on to the job the learning curve really starts,your ability to apply what you have learned in the field and learn how to be a professional and for an employer to see the times a person has achieved there grade in would be more than useful..high stress jobs,quick information processing needed?fast times only..and this way every one gets to do there best in there exams,not just the best they can in the time.

The learning offered in schools is the lowest form of learning there is,it does not build ability it does not help you grow as a person,it does not increase creativity,they don't teach you NLP techniques to access memory fuck me theres people that can read a page second its called photo reading, a process that bypasses the conscious mind and accesses the subconscious,you learn the technique look at a page and you automatically know what it says without reading it word by word Rolling Eyes

With the technology's and self development we have now days,the schooling process is in the stone age,producing very able people in there chosen careers,but at times lacking the basic wisdom to know if what there doing is even right for the world., as well as producing many no hoper's in life due to there experience at school.
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Visitor Q
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PostPosted: 00:09 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest, the time limit is there for the sake of the marker.

Remember exam technique lessons, if theres 3 essays and 90 minutes, you spend ~25 minutes per essay after 15 mins planning them all.

Because people mask a lack of knowledge by waffling. In my law exams they had a great system, which was subjective. If it's obvious you know what you're on about, you score highly (only time I ever got 100% in a 'proper' exam Mr. Green).

But at uni (in 3rd year mainly) the skill became knowing what to put in, cherry picking the information to create a flowing essay. Any munchkin could of recalled verbatim all the information from the course (the very system you were condemning at the beginning of your post), and even with the time to do that you'd of only got 50% (if lucky). Because it would of taken hours to mark, and hedging bets never wins you favours with lecturers.

Putting a time limit on exerts pressure of course (luckily my mind works very well under pressure so I never minded them), but it also assesses the candidate a lot better as they have to understand the question/material to formulate a concise answer.

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From September 2014 to January/February 2015 I will not be using any English, nor reading any. As such, I won't be on here. PM at will, but I won't be checking/posting unless in emergencies. Certainly not for the first couple of months. Please berate me savagely if I break that rule...
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 00:40 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

mad_man wrote:
There is more than likely are those who mutter "im dyslexic" as an excuse..but for the Most part,they aren't self proclaimed,there found to be suffering along the way


There is a large range of how much it affects people. At which point do you start positively discriminating in favour of those who are affected?

mad_man wrote:
The hole exam system is wrong None of it should be timed its not a bomb disposal "lets assess your nerves under pressure" test is it,its an assessment of the knowledge gained through out the course and nothing more if you spend one hour completing a paper or ten,in relation to the world means fuck all,if you enter the room with nothing but writing instruments and complete that exam paper with nothing other than whats in your mind,well you passed the course.


Largely agree, but when others are struggling in an exam with time constraints it seems a bit off to greatly aleviate those time issues for some of those taking part. Similarly if spelling is going to give the examinor an impression which will lead to a lower grade, then allowing some to use a computer to spell check their work is also a bit off.

All the best

Keith
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G
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PostPosted: 00:47 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have terrible hand writing; a free lap top would have have been nice, but not sure that's 'fair' really.
Also, I was often very lazy at school when not 'challenged'. Should I have been allowed extra time for this, with people to help me along?.. it was a condition that I didn't want and may well have been genetic, something that most probably quite significantly reduced my achievement.

There are courses which don't rely on exams; I chose one of these instead of doing two GCSEs and did even worse, due to my above condition.
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 00:50 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm dyslexic aparantly and completely agree with the OP, Personnally I believe everybody should be based on there own merit. Just because I can't spell well and miss out words, I don't think it is fair I get given extra time in exams. (Not that I didn't take it!)

I think I have dispraxier (SP.) too I'm really shit at organisation and I always lose things I'm on my 3rd issue 9 of my debit card Laughing I have gone through loads of sets door keys too. I also can't really read analogue clocks, which is weird I understand them but I have to look at them for ages to work it out.

They where also giving free laptops out to people with dyslexia at uni, the where clever about it though you had to fill in half a tree's worth of forms to get it I looked at the forms and laughed the the special needs woman who tried to give them to me and I said "You expect a dylexic to fillout all those forms?" She muttered something about proceedure and I walked out.
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 01:08 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amen Ricardo.

Whilst Mad Man, I agree with many a point you have made, and would happily interject with my own points and justifications, my only excuse as this very time will be that I have just got back from the pub and am far too drunk to argue against all your points, and I'm off on holiday 2moro morning and thus wont have the time then either, however, I'll happily debate this upon my return.

But, on Bonny's points, I don't condemn the exam time as such because a) the marker has to sit down and read everything you have read, if you give a person 5 hours to answer a question, you can bet your ass that a good percentage of that will be utter shite spouted out to make up space in the belief that quantity equals quality.
b) (which ties in with a) The idea of sitting through a lecture is that you take the current knowledge (i.e you are given a starting point based upon experience and tried and tested models/theory's) , think about it in your own time, go do research on the subject area by yourself, then when it comes to exam time you are asked to answer a given question surrounding the subject area in a concise and to-the-point manner, making it easier for the examiner to determine whether you understand fully the topic, or whether how good your ability is to regurgitate other stuff you have read about.

Granted it isnt't a perfect system, but jesus, formulate a system where everyone is tested to their unique ability and I'll happily participate (given the fact that at times I'm unsure if I'm in the right career - but you go ahead and ask 100 people whether they feel they are an see what results you get, sometimes some people are just good at a particular ability, whether they like it or not).

I could go on, as I said at the start, but I feel I'm rambling already not to mention that we are probably going to end up in a tirade about the education system as a whole, dyslexic or otherwise.

I'll be back in 2 weeks if you still want to debate this, and may I point out that is exactly what I mean, a debate, not a fight over who's right or wrong, you have points which I wholeheartedly agree with and thats fine, but other points which I totally disagree with. Just felt I had to point that out as a lot of the time on the forum it seems that these days you can't look a man in the fucking eyes and tell him how you feel without being made out to either totally right or totally wrong (metaphorically speaking of course).

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