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Dyslexia, an unfair advantage in education?

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WildGoose
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PostPosted: 03:56 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

I struggle with understanding this whole dyslexia thing, because I don't suffer from it. I think it's overused, most definately. Genetic proof or otherwise, similar with ADHD. I'm not a scientist, however, nor have I done extensive reading on the subject of either. I have perhaps seen it in some children that seem intent on being unable to learn, no matter how many times or different ways you explain it, but who knows.

It's hard for me to sympathise with what a lot of people claim to struggle with academically. Especially basics like tables. It's not a case of understanding or teaching methods with most things, you just need to accept that 6 multiplied by 8 is 48, and learn it. Then learn all the others. Just like writing your name or learning a phone number. The fact is, some will be genuine, and a lot will just be riding the lazy fuckers bandwagon.

Exam time limits are for one reason only, to attempt to extract a concise relevant answer from the person being tested. Given enough time any monkey can reel off the entire syllabus in the hope of ticking all the boxes.

Something amusing perhaps in madman's support of unlimited time in exams, running parallel to his inability to write a concise post that is to the point.

madman wrote:
This is good on a comical level but don't you want to live in a world in which every ones ability's are bought out,even if an individualized approach is needed instead of blanket education?


Perhaps that would be nice, but the fact is we don't, nor will we likely ever. It's a dog eat dog thing, and after corruption and "who you know" it is supposed to be the best man for the job.

How can you possibly have a mass education system tailored to everyone individual needs, you'd have a jedi academy one side of the campus, and a bin lining school on the other. Want your kid to be educated to an exacting standard then pull them out of school and do it yourself, or play the richs mans card and get a tutor.

It smacks of people wishing to remove themselves from responsibility, a lot parents and the education system is right up there with the worst offenders. An institution and set of exam boards that are already losing credibility by the day.

Focus on letting teachers do their job, and not on arse covering, planning and paper trailing every second of every school day. We might see the return of some standards.

It's positive discrimination against joe regular, as with everything else in the UK.

By implementing laptops, longer exam times, cushions on chairs and whatever else, its going

1) Best man for the job, the high flyer.
2) Those 'medically diagnosed' with needing a leg up.
3) Everyone else.

It's nothing new, in the forces the ladies get to do fewer press ups than the men, and with their knees on the ground (another can of worms). Wanna be a policeman? Black and yellow first in line please.
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G
The Voice of Reason



Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 10:22 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

WildGoose wrote:
Wanna be a policeman? Black and yellow first in line please.

To be fair, people with gentic fatness or any registered disability should be give at least twice as long to do everything too Smile.

I suspect Branson didn't have any more time in exams and he seems to have done ok for himself.

(However, despite all that, I'm not suggesting that extra time in tests is the wrong thing to do.)
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JonB
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PostPosted: 11:00 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

WildGoose wrote:

It's nothing new, in the forces the ladies get to do fewer press ups than the men, and with their knees on the ground (another can of worms). Wanna be a policeman? Black and yellow first in line please.

Without wanting to divert the thread slightly, you have also brought up another good point and another example of positive discrimination crippling our country.

I am White, British and Male. This is not particularly unusual considering I was born in England, to two white parents and through no fault of my own, I possessed the Y chromosone. I also happen to be genetically perfect, in that I have no apparant defects and the luxury of having no known disability. Apart from maybe a little bit of long-sightedness.

So why then, after 100 years of fighting for womens, blacks and disabled rights am I now the lowest in the pecking order for 75% of jobs? I can picture it in my head right now. I have some application forms at the table at various private and public sector companies right now and I can already visualise some monkey looking through my application; see that I am W, B + Male and throw my application in the bin, without even reading to see if I match the required criteria for the job.

Is this fair? Is this what "equal opportunities" was devised for? Why is it that on every application form there is an equal opportunities form? If the government and the people want a purely skills based workforce why not do this: -

Arrow Scrap the equal opportunities questionnaire.
Arrow Don't ask for a name, date of birth, ethnic origin, place of birth or sex until after an initial skills based application is submitted. If you want to go further, make it only able to be filled out on a computer so as to not give away any incidence of gender or ethnicity that may or may not come through on the application form.
Arrow Stop positively discriminating for your sexuality. Being gay should not be an green light to get a better job. But then neither should choosing to follow a natural biological pathway be a reason to get the job either.

If this so happens that there are more White, British, Straight Males doing the jobs, this would only ever be purely down to the fact they had better skills and vice versa.

I'm sorry for this mild rant. However over the past few months I am feeling like nothing I can do will change the fact that I just an "overpopulated" species in the work place. Through absolutely no fault of my own.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 11:13 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon B wrote:
Stuff.


I've wondered why they don't do in that jobs for a long time to be honest.

Yes it would be much easier if they simply blanked out all the names and sexes on CVs, but that's far too logical for this government.
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MinhDinh
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PostPosted: 11:19 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

quite frankly i think it is fair. how often do you need to actually spend all of the time in exams?

also there are kids in school who do not get diagnosed with it. i remember a black kid who pretty much couldn't read or spell. he had no extra help but after 4 years with him, i kinda felt maybe he wasn't so dumb and had dyslexia.
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Tarmacsurfer
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon B wrote:
So why then, after 100 years of fighting for womens, blacks and disabled rights am I now the lowest in the pecking order for 75% of jobs?


How do you maintain that youthful skin? /camp
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Visitor Q
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PostPosted: 15:01 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

MinhDinh wrote:
quite frankly i think it is fair. how often do you need to actually spend all of the time in exams?


Wait until you get to /proper/ exams. We not talking the multiple choice or retard friendly ones, but the big essay ones. I finished every single exam for third year bang on the money, usually doing the 'if I finish this paragraph they won't mind Shifty' trick.

What I find annoying as well is that not only do dyslexic people get extra time, but they usually put them in a room on their own with about 5 people in. Less distractions, less tense atmosphere, less time waiting before and after to get started etc.

That seems almost as annoying to me, speaking from experience of having one or two exams in seperate rooms (I forget why now Thinking)
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 15:10 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon B wrote:


So why then, after 100 years of fighting for womens, blacks and disabled rights am I now the lowest in the pecking order for 75% of jobs?



They've met you? Wink
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igiyf
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PostPosted: 19:12 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I struggle with understanding this whole dyslexia thing, because I don't suffer from it. I think it's overused, most definitely. Genetic proof or otherwise, similar with ADHD. I'm not a scientist, however, nor have I done extensive reading on the subject of either. .



Always good to start a post by stating your understanding of a situation

Arrow I have never experienced it
Arrow I cant understand it
Arrow I haven't researched it
Arrow I don't care what the genetic proof says

Quote:
I have perhaps seen it in some children that seem intent on being unable to learn, no matter how many times or different ways you explain it, but who knows


Seen that in children who aren't dyslexic as well,it comes down to not giving a fuck,which i can relate to,i can also relate to being explained some thing in a number of ways and still not understanding it, i wanted to understand it but no matter how many ways it was explained by an average teacher i could not, this leads to frustration,especially when you are young,you seem like a person with the mentality needed to pull through:

Quote:
It will ultimately come to nothing. Castles made of sand, ironically, just like everything else.


This being your attitude as an adult when it comes to a simple situation out side of your self concerning government issues, i can only imagine the attitude you would have created if faced with learning difficulty's in your youth and failed to comprehend subjects in the same way as your class mates,but it does not matter,your awareness is boundless and thats certainly compensation for a negative attitude:

Quote:
It's hard for me to sympathise with what a lot of people claim to struggle with academically. Especially basics like tables. It's not a case of understanding or teaching methods with most things, you just need to accept that 6 multiplied by 8 is 48, and learn it.


Yes thats correct wild goose,living on a planet with the most diverse life forms in the solar system,you your self being part of a 6 billion plus species..you fail to see how any one other mind could possibly work and learn in a different way..i mean how could it?

Quote:
Exam time limits are for one reason only, to attempt to extract a concise relevant answer from the person being tested. Given enough time any monkey can reel off the entire syllabus in the hope of ticking all the boxes.


Let me add a bit of common sense,theres a thing that would be used called an allotted space per question/essay answer,the people running the exam system know what they are looking for,the average space needed for a concise relevant answer would be given and that would tests your skills even more.

When you get an essay do they not tell u how many words to convey it in?( for the highly critical no i am not suggesting you be made to count the words in an exam)

Quote:
if you give a person 5 hours to answer a question, you can bet your ass that a good percentage of that will be utter shite spouted out to make up space in the belief that quantity equals quality.


At a GCSE "i did"t revise my parents are going to kill me" level yes,at a university level they would have failed anyway timed or not because they haven't put the effort into the course,lets get real here no amount of waffling to mask a lack of knowledge is going to get a pass,those who haven't put the time in to the course will fail under all circumstances.

It takes what? 30 to 60 minutes extra for a dyslexic to produce a paper of the same grade as his non dyslexic class mate?
If this system came in do you really see a class of 30 taking the finals for a degree having 10 people in the exam room 15 hours and 7000 pages of dribble later?

For the majority of students its going to be a final check over the paper,for those who need the extra time such as dyslexics its going to be the same time its always been(they have the time they Need-its not going to increase by ten hours just because its there)
and for those who say "40 more minutes and it would of been an A+" well there you go..it would be.

A serious candidate is not going to treat it differently...Bonny you would be out of that room in three hours,
a candidate who needs an extra hour for a higher grade is going to be out in the time it takes them to do there best.Is 60 minutes extra on a paper going to make someone a worst scientist than someone who shaved that time off?Possibly,hence the times are given and an employer can decide what position is right for you.Although a person could be amazing at exams enter the work place and be a complete mess under the pressure.

Theres always going to be wafflers who haven't invested the time along with those who haven't got the ability needed..i get the feeling some here feel i am suggesting they be given an easy ride..thats not the case and they will not make it through.


Quote:
There is a large range of how much it affects people. At which point do you start positively discriminating in favour of those who are affected?


To the degree it effects them?

Quote:
Largely agree, but when others are struggling in an exam with time constraints it seems a bit off to greatly aleviate those time issues for some of those taking part.


Hence i said take away time issues for all but people seem to see people in the exam room 16 hours later Laughing

Quote:
I was often very lazy at school when not 'challenged'. Should I have been allowed extra time for this, with people to help me along?.. it was a condition that I didn't want and may well have been genetic, something that most probably quite significantly reduced my achievement.


Although it seems you are "taking the piss",Na you should"t of been allowed extra time for being lazy,you should of been allowed a learning style that stimulated you,creating interest?

Quote:
I have terrible hand writing; a free lap top would have have been nice, but not sure that's 'fair' really.


Hand writing to bad to read? yea i would say a laptop is fair,why not? We have technology to advance our life right? If you could of used a laptop in class and keept up on education,providing you were willing to take extra lessons to improve your handwriting and use the laptop until it came up to the standard..whats unfair about that?

I mean why waste a human resource over something that can be so easily sorted? Or you could just fall behind never learn how to read or write,going through life totally unqualified making it "fair" for those who had perfect writing ability's and glare at you for having a laptop Laughing..

We aren't in the 1950"s the work place world wide is computer based..why schools are still slogging away at hand writing from start to end i don't know,clearly every person should learn how to write to a high standard,once they have achieved that cut the shit and move on to computers.

The amount of information processed would more than double and if laptops where used 50/50 with hand writing when a person was learning to spell the learning time would be cut in half due to the spell checker being an instant teacher always on hand.

All exam markers are looking at your spelling and hand writing ability,yet only English Exams place heavy focus on hand writing the rest are looking at the knowledge you have and your ability to apply that..so why restrict the amount a person can learn/apply with an slow technique when you can learn the basic first then move on to an efficient writing technology?

Quote:
having a spell check in the exam room is unfair

Use a computer without a spell check???

By implementing laptops, longer exam times,mind technology's,photo reading/image streaming its going to produce more people with qualifications at all levels,oh no lets see

Quote:
1) Best man for the job, the high flyer.
2) Those 'medically diagnosed' with needing a leg up.
3) Everyone else.


1-Theres always going to be a best man for the job

2-Those 'medically diagnosed' with needing extra help would have received it,made it to a qualified level and from there its down to them,if they succeed in the work place is another issue.they arent getting no breaks for it mate.

3- Everyone else including me and dam i don't want that Laughing

I don't even care about this issue its all about to come apart anyway,its just the stupidity and the way every one over exaggerates everything Laughing i guarantee you theres some who have read this far and have a vision of hole generations who can only write on pc"s if my suggestion were followed.

At the end of the day people perform in different ways,finishing an exam in 2 hours instead of 4 will not necessarily make you more efficient in the work place,its about harnessing what ability people have and bringing it out to the full.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 22:20 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

mad_man wrote:
Quote:
There is a large range of how much it affects people. At which point do you start positively discriminating in favour of those who are affected?


To the degree it effects them?


And how do you determine that down to the individual and the particular paper that is being done.

After all it seems you were granted extra time yet chose not to use it all and instead just used an extra 5 minutes. Seems that the degree that it was decided it effected you was far in excess of what you felt you needed. As such it would appear that had you used all the extra allocated time it would have put you at an advantage over the others doing the exam.

mad_man wrote:
Hence i said take away time issues for all but people seem to see people in the exam room 16 hours later Laughing


Some probably would take a hell of a lot longer. The standard would just increase. Some would do their answers in a draft form, then write them out a second time (or more), correcting mistakes. The quality would go up, yet not sure it would make any difference in grading between the levels of ability and knowledge.

mad_man wrote:
Although it seems you are "taking the piss",Na you should"t of been allowed extra time for being lazy,you should of been allowed a learning style that stimulated you,creating interest?


Quite possibly, and there is (to me) a very big difference between tailoring the teaching of people to testing peoples skill / knowledge.

All the best

Keith
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J0Al1
World Chat Champion



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: 22:33 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

My brother is slightly
My cousin is very
My X said he was
My current bloke says he is
My Mum thinks she is
and Ive thought I might be a little

maybe its just an excuse for some people? ... hard to diagnose? differnt forms?

I think any learning dissorder makes for a tougher time at school, however it doesnt mean you cant be sucesfull
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eddyh
Nova Slayer



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PostPosted: 23:48 - 15 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tbh I am dyslexic and even though i was given an extra 20% time on my exams at A level, i don't think it really gave me an advantage over people who didn't have extra time. Mine effects my spelling with words such as 'feel' which i constantly spell as 'feal', i get letters mixed up all the time and find it difficult to pronounce some words. The extra time allows me to be able to read and write at the same pace as someone with out dyslexia.
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bazza
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PostPosted: 00:35 - 16 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I've got a plan to stop all this picking on the special people.

Just get normals to take 2 lots of exams then give the best results to those more deserving who, as befits their specialness, can lie in bed and eat cake.[1][2]

Easy peasy - everyone's happy. Thumbs Up Mr. Green Thumbs Up

[1] Apart from the cake-intolerant specials who can have choccy biscuits or something.

[2] Of course, if they fail both, they'll have keep taking the exam until the special is awarded a pass.
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WildGoose
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PostPosted: 00:40 - 16 Jan 2009    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Always good to start a post by stating your understanding of a situation


For the express benefit of you, basically, who insist on chastising everyone who hasn't done their research, thought I might save you the time.

Quote:
I don't even care about this issue its all about to come apart anyway,its just the stupidity


Allow me to point out that any view that doesn't align with yours is considered stupidity, and you dare to criticise others for a narrow world view.

Hypocritical as well, complaining about your perception of others 'attitudes' i.e. not giving a fuck, whilst you claim to not give a fuck yourself. Sure seem to post some laboured points, considering that you do not care.

As for, "its all going to come apart" can you kindly carry yourself and your tin foil hat back to current affairs, it appears you have spread.

Still I notice paragraphs are beginning to be utilised outside of current affairs, good effort. Next maybe you could try substituting most occurances of the word "of" for "have". Don't push too hard though, baby steps...
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 15 years, 75 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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