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Red888
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Rogerborg
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 Posted: 15:56 - 27 Oct 2011  Post subject: |
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YBR = "Chinky" bike.
CBF = Indian bike.
Not that I'm disagreeing with any of your points, but a recent Japanese branded 125 isn't the same as an older Japanese made one.
Personally for that length of commute I'd want something bigger than a 125. Yes, you might get 100mpg out of it, but you won't particularly enjoy NSL sections. I'd suggest spending a bit to get a license, then getting a 200cc+ bike.
My 305 (just for example, I'm not recommending!) returns nearly 80mpg when ridden at 125 speeds, but can keep up with traffic and even induce a few grins when shown the whip. Consumables costs are virtually the same and insurance is actually less than on a 125.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 19:47 - 27 Oct 2011 Post subject: Re: What are your thoughts on this? |
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| Red888 wrote: | New to forums so hello. Need some advice really.
I will soon be having to do a 60 mile round trip commute per day, |
Lets start there, and for a minute, forget the Chinese build, Japanese Branded, debate for a while.
You have a 30 mile journey to work, and you want to save pennies.
OK, first question, why do you think a bike will work out cheaper?
100mpg vs 40mpg
Nice maths, but a long LONG way from the FULL story.
Lets get you on the road, on that £1500 bike shall we and run some numbers for it.
Bike = £1500
Insurance = big variable, anything from around £150 up to £500 (for 'sensible' 125)
Crash Helmet = £100 can get them cheaper, but budget 100 for a reasonable one.
Riding 'gear' £100 for gloves, boots and water-proofs; the 'essentials', add £200 to as much as you can stomouch for dedicated 'protective' riding gear.
Security; Disk Lock, Chain & maybe a cheap alarm as the basics; aprox £50, up to a few hundred depending.
So we are looking at something in the order of £2000-£2,500 for 'Hard-Ware'
You need a CBT course to validate your provissional entitlement (few exceptions, but not worth taking. Starting out; get trained) These tend to be around £100-£150.
After CBT you CAN ride, unsupervised, on your own on L-Plates. You are NOT a qualified rider. And the tests are NOT for a BIG bike licence, tyhey are for a FULL bike licence. Provisional entitlement is just that, provisional, given PROVIDING you intend taking tests, in order you can 'practice' for them. Reason bikes THE MOST DANGEROUSE form of motorised transport get to ride unsupervised is dint of legacy from years past when practical radio supervision wasn't possible..... L-Platers are one of THE highest accident risks on the road, and motorcyclists, well, we aren't a great risk to begin with, and 'soft bit on the outside' dont tend to fare too well when we do!
Training for FULL LICENCE ought to be factored into your sums, with lessons starting at about £25 a session and going up to full courses, which for Direct access Scheme, tend to be in teh order of a grand. Tests themselves, cost just £121.50, over price of CBT.
OK, so having spent almost double bikes price, to get you on the road, you are now trundling about, scared... bike wobbling about beneath you, cars every where not seeing you, trucks trying to push you along the by-poass becouse you are struggling to hold 55 and they want to do 60, and being blown into the verges by manic white van men, treating you like a push bike, over taking with barely three inches to spare, the wind washe buffeting you about like a wind in the breeze, chucking you a lanes width to the side as they go past then sucking you back again as they pass......
Its autum, and weather's wind is barely any kinder, and it will be chucking rain at your neck, and beading on your visor, so you will be looking at blury shapes all trying to kill you.... cold, wet, miserable, and tips of your fingers will be stinging, and any eposed bit of skin, or even not that exposed, numb and stinging.....
And THEN, on a damp, dark roundabout, or junction, you will have THAT crash. The car infront thats just a blury shape will have a dodgt brake light and you wont see it until the last second, or car will come careering around a corner just as you have decided to pull out of a junction, OR no-one else involved... you'll come up to a T-Junction, slowing down, and ther will be a pollished patch of tarmac where they have done some road works, and you will 'Just FALL off!' inexplicably....
Wont kill you.
Unlikely even to result in an insurance claim. Probably wont do much damage to the bike. If you pick it up, in all probability you could carry on and ride it home.
Question is; cold;' wet; miserable; in pain, hurting and NOW injurured to boot...... do you WANT to?
This is the 'Reality' of riding motorbikes, not the romantic ideas of cruising accross continents on a Chopper like Denis Hoppa, or a big BMW Dirt Bike Like Charlie & Ewan, and stuff like that.
Its frought; its uncomfortable, its miserable, it hurts, and there is NO RESPITE...
Occassionally, and I do mean occassionally, we get a gloriouse 'bright' but not too sunny day, when its nice and clear, and we can SEE, but its not so hot we are poaching our wedding tackle in our leathers; for some reason, maybe a soccer match on telly, theres no other traffic on the road, the trees, have mystically opened the curtains down the sides of the road, and we can see for miles, nice, winding open EMPTY roads, and we can..... for FIVE MINUTES, be our favourite GP or Film Hero.........
Rest of the time; its misery we live with, for those few moments of pleasure..... becouse we are 'Enthusiasts'....
And here in is the point; there is NO SUCH THING as an 'Ecconomy' biker; the bloke with NO enthusiasm for the masocism of the persuit, merely a desire to beat bus fares.......
There has to be a 'spark' of enthusiasm for bikes to begin with, and even if the interest and passion doesn't grow in the direction of more expensive and more exoteric forms of masocism it HAS to grow.....
There are all kinds of car driver; good drivers, bad drivers, mad drivers, sad drivers, sunday drivers, and even Volvo Drivers..... only two kinds of Bike Rider; Good Riders and New Riders. New riders, get good, get cars or get killed.....
Its an old addage from my youth, when Volvo's were made in Sweeden and came with a Golden Retiriever as standard accessory in the boot; which these days may be slightly challenged by shifts in rider attitudes and stuff, but still hass a pertinant 'message'.
Its a great idea, and we LOVE bikes, but no 'sensible' person would suffer the down sides easily, and certainly NOT for the penny savings on travel costs that are to be found.
So, DO you have enough interest, to hack it? Can you get PAST the romantic ideas and huge financial savings you imagine, and in cold light of day, WOULD you still want to 'do it' even if there WERE no savings to be found?
Lets run some more numbers for you.
I have, as a runaround, a fifteen year old Honda Civic 1.4 Auto hatch-back. Its worth, 'Maybe' £500. Costs me, and old duffer at 40, less than £300 a year to insure. Costs I think £120 a year to tax, and in the last two and a half years has had two MOT's and I dont think even an oil change...... It had a new exhaust just before I got it, and I have replaced the battery. That was £70, but that is pretty much ALL I have had to spend in two years of warm, start on the button, comfortable, practical, hassle free, trauma free motoring.
Returning about 30-40mpg, its not great on fuel, but its not bad either.
100mpg from a motorbike, sounds a huge saving..... BUT.....
Take out service costs, and motorbikes demand a lot more attension; they need oil changes usually every 1000-1500 miles or so, chains and sprokets adjusting, and periodically adjusting, tyres, wear out much faster, and aren't cheap, and this all starts denting the 'savings' on petrol quite significantly.
Having 'invested' however much to buy a bike, kit up, get trained, you have a big initial investment to recoup from that saving, and it could take quite a long time to claw back that set-up overhead on fuel savings, EVEN if they are as numbers suggest, and they frequently aren't, AND longer still, if they are costantly erroded, by small, constant maintenence costs....
'Sensible' 125, probably would be cheaper than a car, and could offer 'some' useful saving.... I have half a couple of 125's as well as big bikes, and the cars, and I try not to admit, but DO know the costs rather too well.......
BUT, the savings wont be as great as you expect, AND while they 'suggest' 100mpg fuel consumption, I can tell you straight away, that while possible for SOME bikes, few in practice achieve the 'book' consumption, same as I get 30-40mpg from the civic, which book says ought to return something like 45mpg 'best'...... Have seen it, on occassional 'balmy' run doing 200miles at constant speed down the motorway, not going over 55mph...... real world.... never happens.
Round town, using 125 lightweight in its 'Comfort Zone' 30-40mph urban streets, making progress from filtering, rather than sitting burning juice in traffic light queues... you can get pretty close and people will report higher figures,. but check the Workshop, there are HUNDREDS of posts from Newbies presuming there must be something desperately wrong with thier 125, becouse they are getting as little as 60-70mpg from it..... No, nothing wrong, its the nature of the beast in use its getting; which in hands of less competant newbie, is not efficient, and even LESS so if they are thrashing the poor little blighter along 50-60mph roads, trying to keep up with traffic for longer distances.
SO, if the book says 100mpg, for a 125, reality is likely to be 'around' 75mpg...... and a quarter of your ecconomic insentive has dissapeared at a stroke.
Discount that further for more demanding maintenence costs, and numbers are looking less and less favourable all the time.
Hence, if it was NOT for the possible savings WOULD you still want to do it?
Becouse IF thats the only reason for trying, you are likely to be dissapointed, as well as cold, wet, miserable, hurting and injured, and very unlikely to want to get back on that bike ling in the gutter.....
Now; 30 each way commute....
This is NOT going to be a 'nice' daily ride, and even LESS so on a lightweight, under powered 125, like a YBR or Pulse Adrenaline.
These are 10bhp bikes that struggle to do 60mph, the Pulse, a dirt bike even more uncomfortable curtecy of being a dirt bike, with wide bars, narrow seat and 'human parachute' riding possition, stretching you out to catch the wind and be buffeted about by the slightest breeze. YBR soft and squidgy, tad more comfortable, but we are talking degrees of misery here.....
Struggling for long period to keep up with, and do battle with traffic, working at the limits of bikes capabilities, it is going to be HARD WORK, and even more miserable than first suggested.
There are 'better' 125's you can ride on a learner licence, that have the full 14bhp permitted, and can 'more' comfortably cope with this kind of use, and bikes like the Veradaro, that are a bit heavier and more substancial and have better saddles and erganomics to make them a bit more comfy..... we are STILL talking degrees of misery!
For THAT kind of distance, EVERY DAY.... I would be thinking about a 500cc Commuter Twin.
The 500 commuter Twins are a good Newbie Bike, they often live in the same shed along side 125's as DAS bikes at the schools; so no more daunting a prospect to ride than a tiddler. Also begs suggestion of DAS, so you can ride one as 'first bike'... but thats another matter.
Bigger; they are more comfortable. They are heavier, so more stable, so you dont get buffeted around as much, and have more power, so they can more easily hold road speeds, and with just THOSE two things sorted, means the bikes are less effort to ride, and keep on the straight and narrow, so you have more attension to deal with these idiots out to get you.... and its STARTING to get a bit less miserable, and every little advantage magnifies, so the misery is a lot less, incrementally to the point that might not need a 'perfect' riding day to actually enjoy it, just a 'not too bad' a one...
500 commuter twins, will generally have book MPG around 70ish, used in the same was as 125, not thrashed, good chance you will get closer to boog coinsumption, and they can actually 'match' that of a 125.
Insurance on them, often not a lot greater than 125's, with full licence taking a loading off the premium.
Bigger, more durable, still need fair bit of maintenence and servicing, but not SO demanding of it, and parts and spares wil tend to be that bit more expensive.
Do the maths on a real scenario, and a 500 commuter, is 'about' as expensive to run as a 'cheap' car. Potential savings ARE there though, though may not be as great as anticipated, and an awful lot depends on situation, vis insurance significantly, how you use and how you ride the bike, your journey, how you look after the bike, and what use above and beyond the daily grind you give it.
SO...... backing a long way up, before looking at what might be the better bike for you, lets work out first if ANY bike might be right for you!
Then WHAT bike likely to do the job you want it to, your 300 miles a week........
Brand New Pulse Adrenaline; 10bhp push-rod CG copy motor, in human parachute chassi, its NOT going to be the nicest tool for the job, before any debate about Chinky Bike Reliability.
Second Hand YBR125; slightly more sophisticated Chinese built to Yamaha tolerence OHC engine, slightly less uncomfortable, pottentially a tad more dependable...
Either way, not the most suitable machines for the gig.... leading to oft suggested alternatives, Veradaro being reccomended frequently, NSR125 plauded, perhaps even a CBR 125... all offering different flavours of 'compromise' not necesserily aliviating so many..
Really a 500 Commuter twin, is the more suitable tool for the job; more expensive to run, so less saving to be found, but still a reasonable and not instant death Newbie Bike, so a lot fewer compromises to be made....
BUT, end of the day its ALL going to come down to some kind of compromise..... and question is to look at the perameters and decide how to make the compromises work 'best' for you....
And starting point is to rank the priorities of whats in the compromise, and whats REALLY important, and how much financial saving do you really want or need to make it viable, and how much discomfort and hassle are you prepared to put up with.
I DONT often reccomed Chinky bikes to Newbies, but depending on circumstances I can recognise thier merits; I have lived with one (The Girl-Freinds), and provided you know what you are getting, know what compromises will be demanded AND are prepared to live with them, they CAN be made to work for you..... BUT..... they RARELY work well, and fullfill the hopes and aspirations of the typical nieve, optimistic Newbie, expecting, becouse its a 'brand new' motorcycle, to deliver everything they expect a brand new motorcycle to deliver.
I'm not a fisherman; but they ARE like the 'My First Fishing Rod' sets they sell at the seaside.... they LOOK like what Daddy Has and you can dangle it over a canal bank, and stand as much chance of catching a cold as any one else...... whether you will catch any fish with it is another matter, how hard work it will make landing teh little minow another, and whether, by the time you have got it home, it will be in a fit state to use on another fishing trip, yet another still....
But we are a LONG way from THOSE kind of questions being all THAT pertinant.
Long had think about the down sides of biking; some soul searching on how much real enthusiasm you have for it; some thoughts about how much the idea is influenced by 'presumed' financial savings, and then some more thought about the fact that you are talking about a long haul commute, and a short hop motorcycle, and asking whether if you bought an electric sack cart, you could shift furnature pro's use a transit van to..... yes you could.... but not easily, or for very long!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| FerretFing |
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FerretFing
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Posted: 19:51 - 27 Oct 2011  Post subject: Re: What are your thoughts on this? |
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FFS Mike.....I visibly aged reading all that!!!!  |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
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| LordShaftesbu... |
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LordShaftesbu...
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| Posted: 20:05 - 27 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
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OK, that gave me a chuckle.  
Don't take that as encouragement though. |
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| Red888 |
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Red888
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 22:11 - 27 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
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| Red888 wrote: | Well all in all i need to think about this a bit more, thanks guys |
I'm a leisure biker. and readily admit it. I started out in School-Boy Trials, which is purely for 'fun', because I was MAD about bikes, to the point, becouse weren't ritch enough for parental indulgence, I worked my arse off for five years 'saving up' to be able to afford a bike, at 15.
I have 'toyed' with road bikes, since I was old enough to ride, but bar a couple of very brief interludes, i have NEVER relied on a motorcycle as every day, sole means of transport.
Doesn't make me a week-end warrior though, by a long stretch. My enthusiasm for biking has always been such that I have nearly always reached for my hat, before the car-keys.....
And its made the miserable bits that much more 'tolerable', knowing that I HAVE the choice, and I don't HAVE to be doing 'this'....
When sat at traffic lights; in pissing rain, in near freezing cold, cuddling the engine to warm my fingers, and some-one in a car along side, looks, and shakes their head in incomprehension, or I'm peeling off wet not-so-water-proofs in the gents at work, and fishing through my hold all for dry pair of trousers and undies, as THIS TIME I have come prepared for the crotch-pond, where the water that gets through the zips collects...... a collegue actually says "I dont know WHY you ride a motorbike!?"
And rather than puzzling, and questioning my own sanity, fact I DONT have to put up with it, I have to think WHY I voluntarily put up with it, I have the simple answer......"Because I ENJOY IT"
THAT is why we ALL ride a bike, and with every logical argument stacked against us as to why we shouldn't, the ONLY answer that has any real validity.
And I DO enjoy it.
Made it sound bleak; and in the worse, biking IS bleak. But, I was riding 1000cc bike, that was a beast, that would spin its back wheel, at will, on the throttle, in the first three of its five gears, in the dry, and a bludy liability in the wet, let alone cold near icy conditions; which sat in the garage along side Fiesta XR2, which demanded little by way of maintenence or care, did more miles to the gallon, cost less to insure, despite being at the time one of the least insurable cars on the road, did 70,000 miles on a set of £1509 tyres, compared to the bike that needed a £150 rear tyre barely every 1500 miles, even if I DIDN'T let it rip on the throttle..... and with all THAT.... I WOULD be there, in the cold, in the damp, warming my mits at traffic lights on the engine block, wasting any savings in journey time, togging up at the beginning and togging off at the end...... PURELY because I enjoyed it.
And THAT has to be the way you look at it; any savings in journey time you find, any economic savings you achieve, they have to be 'bonus', to be found on TOP of the pleasure of riding, NOT the entire reason for riding.
You have some interest and some enthusiasm; thats good. And biking could prove 'right' for you..... but I think you need to aproach it from a different angle, and not look for a reason to 'justify' doing it, for any other reason that you simply DO.
From that approach, the costs are academic, they dont have to account for themselves, and its merely a case of how much can you afford to try doing something you think you 'might' enjoy.
I'd suggest looking around for a one or two hour 'Get-On' taster ride.... but if you have ridden before, and off-road, then booking a full CBT course, as a 'Toe in the Water' excersise may be a good eye opener.
About £150 for a day's basic training, with bike hire. You get a lot of good info about bikes, and road riding, and half decent school should give you not just a morning on the play-ground doing basic manouvers and signalling and stuff, but give you full two hours on the road.
This time of year, weathers a bit crap, but pretty 'typical', ought to give you a good idea whether you might enjoy road riding....
Maybe not as an every day commuting excersize, but for leisure, a leasure you might, make odd ecconomies with, commuting on those days when the weather is nice and you feel more comfy doing it...
A 'Cheap' 125 of your own, is possibly a good paddle in the shallows, not ideal for your commute; but to pop to the shop, or nip round a mates, a bit of fun.
And you can take lessons, weekly or so, checking on your riding 'progress' and practicing what you learn in nice bite sized chunks, gaining a wider experience, between lessons giving what you learn relevence, gaining useful experience, without there being pressure or demands on you, and NOT having to do it unless you WANT to, finding the fun.
Currently you can test, and gain full licence, taking tests on a 125. In just under 145 months, now, licence & test rules change and you wont be able to do that, it will all effectively be DAS and to get a licence you'll have to train up on a DAS course, probably a short, 'cramming' intensive course, and likely to be expensive, around £1000.
If that is an incentive; you might like to follow the idea of getting a 125 as a toe in the water excersize, and seeing if you can get your licence on it. Would give you a two year 33bhp power restriction, but that would lapse automatically when the times up, and you wouldn't have to take any more tests.
This COULD be 'cheaper' than doing a full DAS course to 'just' get a licence, and that ecconomic incentive may be a lever to 'help' justify it.
But, having shown the 'interest' would seem worth while following it and seeing where it leads.
Start with a CBT...... see if you enjoy, see if it kindles the spark of enthusiasm you have. If so, ponder how well lit it is.
Your own 125 and gentle experience aquesition, weekly training and test for Restricted A group licence, could be an ecconomical, and fun way to a licence, and once you have it... well, you will always have it, dont HAVE to have a bike to go with it.
A DAS course and straight onto a bigger bike; might be attractive, and become the ambition of the enthusiasm stoked by a CBT course...... and again, done you have licence, dont HAVE to use it.
With licence in your pocket, armed with some experience, your enthusiasm at whatever level its attained....
THEN, is the time to start thinking about what direction to take it, and what bike you might want, and for what purpose you intend putting it to, and whether commuting need even come into that equation....
Here and now...... you could easily over think it..... so having given you the pause for thought needed to temper nieve optimism....
Just book a CBT and see how it goes! Doesn't require more thought than that, for now!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Cheerfulgrin |
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Cheerfulgrin
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| Posted: 10:50 - 29 Oct 2011 Post subject: |
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I decided to buy a bike for very similar reasons i.e. commuting 50 miles a day and getting sick of sitting in traffic and the huge costs of diesel in my car.
i have found that although i dont spend as much on fuel there are other costs that mean the bike isnt as economical as my sums had suggested. ok, so some of this is down to my personal experience in buying bikes (very long story, might tell it one day) BUT, once you have taken everything into account, i really enjoy riding my bike, not just to work too, i want to go everywhere on it and ride it when ever i can.
i'm now looking to get rid of the L plates and get something fairly economical but bigger.
Mike's post weighing the pros and cons is very interesting, wish i had so much insight when i started a few months ago, and yes, biking isnt all about saving money, or having the sun on you whilst you ride to work or whatever, but even in the wet, wind, cold you might find you still enjoy having a bike between your legs rather than being stuck in your 'tin cage', i do!
good luck in making your decision and if you do get a bike, think longer term, L plates are supposed to be temporary, remember that and plan for getting into biking properly.
PS. from personal experience i would reccomend a YBR over a chinese bike anyday, i've had both, i might not be an expert, but i know a shit heap when i see one (now!) lol
____________________
--Current Bike: '98 Hornet CB600F
--Previous Bikes 2012 Hyo GT250R - 2010 YBR125 - Back in '91:Suzuki 50cc moped & Honda CB125T Superdream
--CBT -Feb '11, Theory -Nov '11, Mod 1 -Jan '12, Mod 2 Feb '12 |
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