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1978 Honda CB200 pt2

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EllisCork
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 13:26 - 21 Nov 2011    Post subject: 1978 Honda CB200 pt2 Reply with quote

Close, but no cigar. Thought I was ready for the MOT, new battery, new front tyre and new brake pads/cable, came to start it – click, click, click, click. That’s as far as I got yesterday and was thinking starter solenoid.

I started thinking about the broken kick start just moving freely, can these be related at all? Any Ideas?
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 14:15 - 21 Nov 2011    Post subject: Re: 1978 Honda CB200 pt2 Reply with quote

EllisCork wrote:
Close, but no cigar. Thought I was ready for the MOT, new battery, new front tyre and new brake pads/cable, came to start it – click, click, click, click. That’s as far as I got yesterday and was thinking starter solenoid.

I started thinking about the broken kick start just moving freely, can these be related at all? Any Ideas?


Dead man's click, means that the solenoid is actuating... whether current is getting through the contacts though is another matter!

Have opened up a few Benley motor solenoids, its a simple affair, and the contacts can go 'black' and loose you volts, so may be worth a bit of time with an old screw-driver and some emmery paper.

Terminals on the top, especially if the rubber insulation boots have gone walkies, and the leads furred up more likely culpret though.

But most frequent culpret though is duff battery, but you say you have fitted new one?

'78 model, is it the 6v or 12v system.

6v starter is not THAT strong.

All of them though do go tired. Not so often from burned out coils; the rotor sits on one bronze bush in tail of starter; other end has a pinion on it, supported by three idlers in a plannet gear, that gioves some rediculouse amount of reduction, then thats output shaft is on a bigger bush in the nose housing.

The two long bolts down the length of the starter can be a bit of a pig to undo, but soak with penatrating oil, and judiciouse use of an impact driver, then a pair of mile grips on exposed length near planet gear housing (or a hack-saw through them!) will get them out.

Stripped, you can clean and dress the armature ring on the rotor, and clean the brushes. I dont try and dress the contacting ends of the brushes, they are soft carbon, and bed to shape, and trying to tidy them up often does more harm than good; BUT they often get gummed up in the guides from wear dust.

Clean, and grease the planet gear and support bushes, and put it back together, its usually pretty darn useful after.

Bit of attension to the feed cable contact and cable routing.... they are supposed to be routed under the generator cover and actually clamped by a tang on it. Worth cleaning, lookig for breaks or nicks in insulation, and making sure its routed neatly, and got good contacts both ends, at starter terminal bolt and the solenoid.

Then earths; make sure that the earth strap between engine and battery is 'good'. Battery neg goes from one engine mounting bolt to provide earth to frame and motor. Worth pulling that bolt and cleaning carefully, and making sure its tight, and you have good earth on both frame AND engine.

Starter motor earths to engine block on the four feet it bolts down on; likewise, worth dressing the feet and the pads on crank-case they sit on, with file/emery to get good metal to metal contact and good earth.

OK, electrically sussed, the last niggle is the starter clutch.

simple arrangement; when you pull the generator cover off; you have sproket on end of the starter motor; chain to sprocket on the crank.

Crank sproket is actually running on a bush on the crank, and a boss is transmitting drive to the inside of the generator rotor, via three one way rollers, like a bicycle free-wheel, so when starter turns, tuggs against rollers, pulling flywheel round, turning engine, but when engine catches, it rotates ahead of free-wheel letting rollers drop off the ramps, dissengaging drive.

Cause of noisy starter, or non engaging starter on thee engines, when teh rollers start sticking.

If battery good, and solenoid good, and cabling good, then a tired starter can lack beef to over come drag of crud / old lube, inside, hence the cleaning, or the drag of a jammed free-wheel.

Needs the flywheel pulled, but once off, you can soak starter chain in oil to loosen that up, and clean and crease the free-wheel mechanism, to make that a bit easier to turn, and with good battery ALL should be OK!

Answeing Q on Kickstarter mech; shouldn't be an influence on non working starter.

Kickstart is engaging on the other end of the crank, a rack, engaging on the ring gear of the clutch basket, that's in direct drive with the crank pinion.

Two systems are pretty much utterly independent; and unless something 'broken' in the kickstart is jamming teh crank!

Reason its not engaging, could be broken mechanism, or could have been removed, actual starter lever shaft, left merely to stop oil leaking out the shaft hole!

HOWEVER; its a Benley engine, and that priomary drive cover NEEDS to come off anyway, to check the state of the oil strainer gauze, of nothing else.

Its main cause of most Benley motor siezures, and particularly on re-commissioning old derelicts where its been sat for years with sediment building up around it. Clogs, starves oil pump; camshaft eats head; cam-chain snaps!

So, I'd have that cover off, and have a poke, clean the filter, inspect the clutch, and see what I saw, regards the kick-start mech. Might simply be the sector return spring....
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EllisCork
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 21 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 16:19 - 21 Nov 2011    Post subject: Re: 1978 Honda CB200 pt2 Reply with quote

Thanks again Teflon-Mike, I'll be busy this weekend then. I just couldn't get my head round it starting the other week and now it wont. Is a 12v Battery, freshly charged, so it should be enough.

I've put a youtube vid up of it running from jump leads a few weeks ago, do they all sound like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znsxW1moN1Y
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MickC
Spanner Monkey



Joined: 27 May 2011
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PostPosted: 20:23 - 21 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a couple of other vids on utube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elaZP2wJTYs&feature=related

Have a listen to them and see if yours sounds the same.

On the possible knackered solenoid, you could 'jump' the connection with an old screw driver, if it starts fine then you will know for sure that it is duff
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Fizzer Thou
World Chat Champion



Joined: 06 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: 12:42 - 22 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have a multimeter,connect the resistance meter across the two heavy duty terminals after disconnecting the one from the battery.Press the starter button and if the resistance meter shows anything more than a few ohms then the main connectors inside that would put the high current through to the starter motor is corroded.
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