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£60 fines and CCTV crackdown on drivers who stop in bike box

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natefz6
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PostPosted: 16:58 - 14 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

goto10 wrote:
I've even been raged at by a cyclist for not going into the box in the West end....

^this

I used to always avoid going in the boxes and sit back either between traffic or on the right hand side of the first car and pull off quick, but I have on a couple of occasions been verbaled by a friendly cyclist to get out the way. Now it depends on traffic conditions and number of cyclists as to what I do.

If this is live I can see it making the ASL boxes somewhat pointless in many places as cyclists will not be able to advance to the box due to motorcyclists filling all of the gaps.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:03 - 14 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

As discussed earlier, pedalists are also committing the offence unless they enter the box from a dedicated pedalist lane. If there's no lane, or they don't use it, you should knock them off their bike and kneel on their neck until a constable arrives to punish them properly.

FACT.
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 08:11 - 15 Aug 2013; edited 1 time in total
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 06:57 - 15 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
As discussed earlier, pedalists are also committing the offence unless they enter the box from a dedicated pedalist lane. If there's no lane, or they don't use it, you should knock them off their bike and kneel on their neck until a constable arrives to punish them properly.

FACT.


Does that mean that only the ones which have the feeding cycle-lane sporting a solid line can be enforced as an offence for motorcyclists who happen to enter the box via the cycle lane?
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Jim Mc
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PostPosted: 08:04 - 15 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

wotsthestory wrote:
esullivan wrote:
I don't understand the hostility to cyclists. About the only thing more dangerous than commuting in London on a motorcycle is commuting in London on a bicycle. Let them have that box!
You have already answered this and echoes what I have said above, cyclists don't use them, they are worse than drivers/riders because they are not culpable. That's the hostility.


That just isn't true. Cyclists do use the boxes, particularly in London. They are especially useful for turning right and not getting wiped out by the vehicle behind.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:10 - 15 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
As discussed earlier, pedalists are also committing the offence unless they enter the box from a dedicated pedalist lane. If there's no lane, or they don't use it, you should knock them off their bike and kneel on their neck until a constable arrives to punish them properly.

FACT.


Does that mean that only the ones which have the feeding cycle-lane sporting a solid line can be enforced as an offence for motorcyclists who happen to enter the box via the cycle lane?


I've corrected my 100% factual post above to make it 110% factual. We discussed this earlier, if there's no cycle lane leading into the box, and no picture of a bicycle (of the correct size), then it's not a valid advanced stop line.

Here's the definitive description of pedalist boxes. If a box doesn't match this, then it's not valid, and you can cheerfully ignore it, although you may find that the forces of Idiocracy don't know that.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/images/uksi_20023113_en_112.gif
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 08:20 - 15 Aug 2013; edited 2 times in total
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Ludford
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PostPosted: 08:12 - 15 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

The title of this article should be "London police come up wih new way to steal more money".
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 08:14 - 15 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some use the boxes, others fly straight through.

Some lemon yesterday came late into the box where Brixton Rd joins the A3, cut across diagonal and then the lights changed but he was in the wrong gear, wobbled, put his foot down after a lot of clattering from his deraillieur and nearly got ploughed into the tarmac by three lanes of traffic (including cyclists).

As with everything, there are sensible people at it and there are complete fuckwits.
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Doovy
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PostPosted: 10:05 - 15 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crackdown of this with coppers at Northumberland Ave. leading up to Traf. Sq off of the Embankment today. Spotted in time and trundled past in first gear with the TL giving it some meaty revs.
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goto10
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PostPosted: 11:04 - 15 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doovy wrote:
Crackdown of this with coppers at Northumberland Ave. leading up to Traf. Sq off of the Embankment today. Spotted in time and trundled past in first gear with the TL giving it some meaty revs.


Yeah I saw that too, I think I might have been spotted being a bit naughty though - not for sitting in ASL but for skipping past the traffic queueing to turn right whilst the left lanes are on green - I pulled back into lane and carried on up the embankment then did a U-turn further up, waited for a bit and then came back around from the other direction. They ignored me so I might have got away with it....
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Doovy
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PostPosted: 11:08 - 15 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll be fine, they would have stopped you Thumbs Up
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Vracktal
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PostPosted: 10:29 - 16 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seen them doing this all week so far, up 'til today they were on the embankment just before Parliament Square, now they've shifted to York Road, at the traffic lights and the turn-off for Lombard Road (next to the Land-Rover dealership.)

Seen at least ten cars being given opportunities to bribe just this week, plus three motorcyclists stopped including one waved over right in front of me for filtering up the blue cycle lane (but not going in the box.)

Bet the Met are raking it in from this. Especially since they're now very clear that motorcycles aren't allowed in.

Of course, letting motorcyclists in would no doubt ease up congestion, and be safer for us to.

But on the other hand, money.
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natefz6
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PostPosted: 11:52 - 16 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny thing is I have seen more push bike being done for jumping red lights this week in London. I guess that's a good thing and might make them start to actually use the boxes which have seemed like a waste of road space for so long.
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goto10
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PostPosted: 12:08 - 16 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:
Seen them doing this all week so far, up 'til today they were on the embankment just before Parliament Square, now they've shifted to York Road, at the traffic lights and the turn-off for Lombard Road (next to the Land-Rover dealership.)

Seen at least ten cars being given opportunities to bribe just this week, plus three motorcyclists stopped including one waved over right in front of me for filtering up the blue cycle lane (but not going in the box.)

Bet the Met are raking it in from this. Especially since they're now very clear that motorcycles aren't allowed in.

Of course, letting motorcyclists in would no doubt ease up congestion, and be safer for us to.

But on the other hand, money.


I saw them there again today, I couldn't really make out what they were doing - I kept my nose clean and pulled in behind the ASL (a nice motorist had stopped well short of it so I managed to get in) - a policewoman was standing next to me and another bike ('busa) nosed over the line followed by a coach that went completely past the ASL box and sat waiting to turn right whilst blocking most of the traffic trying to go straight over, the police turned a blind eye to that. So some very selective tugging going on.
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 14:18 - 22 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Italic their emphasis, bold mine.

I have been forwarded an email from yourself concerning enforcement of Advanced Stop Lines (ASL's). I apologise for the delay in returning your mail.

The Metropolitan Police in partnership with Transport for London are focussed on making London's road network as safe as possible for all its users. The ASL is a proven safety measure which allows pedal cycles to 'get ahead' of traffic at automatic traffic signals and therefore place them in the safest possible position on the road.

The current tactics targeting these stop lines form part of a wider operation which has seen significant engagement and education prior to this enforcement stage. We are not specifically targeting motor vehicle at these junctions and we are ensuring that all road users comply with the highway code in relation to these ASL's. The purpose of the operation is not to penalise but to change behaviour.

I would like to reassure you that all road users, including cyclists, are being dealt with in the same way. I accept your argument that powered two wheelers, due to the high power to weight ratio, are able to accelerate away from the traffic quickly but ultimately the law does not make provision for these vehicles in the 'ASL'. Therefore, all motor vehicles must stop at the first solid white line at the ASL.

I can assure you that our activity is recorded and logged throughout the operation and so far over 150 cyclists have been issued with fixed penalty notices for contravening the red ATS, compared to 103 motorcyclists and 28 car drivers.

I hope that I have answered your concerns but do feel free to contact me should your require any further explanation.


-----------



You are correct in your belief that technically cyclists should not cross the first solid white line against a red light and entry to the box should be made via gated entrance or cycle lane. However, this is a technicality and a minor infringement. Our focus is on cycle safety and clearly it is more important for the cyclists to be in the safest position on the road. We are proportionate in our approach and as such motorists who only slightly encroach the ASL would not be issued a fixed penalty but instead 'words of advice' are given.

You are also correct in your understanding that if the lights change as a vehicle approaches the line and it is not safe to stop at the first white line, the 'Highway Code' advises that the motorist should stop at the second line. For this reason our officers are instructed to ensure that the light is showing red for at least one second prior to the vehicle entering the ASL.

Ultimately, our aims are to reduce the number of people seriously injured and killed on the roads and these measures are taken with that goal in mind.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:14 - 22 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

"What the law meant to say was..." Rolling Eyes

Going through Glasgow this weekend, it only just registered with me that many of the ASL boxes have been given a "cycle lane" entering them that's the precise length and width to contain a picture of a bicycle. Clapping

Granted I rode straight through several red lights, but I consider this a technicality and a minor infringement since my focus was on Rogerborg safety and also I wanted to.
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map
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PostPosted: 15:59 - 22 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
...I would like to reassure you that all road users, including cyclists, are being dealt with in the same way. ...
You are correct in your belief that technically cyclists should not cross the first solid white line against a red light...However, this is a technicality and a minor infringement. ...

Hmmm Thinking
Rules for cyclists Highway Code Section 69 (my favourite number...ohhh Matron!)
Highway Code wrote:
69

You MUST obey all traffic signs and traffic light signals.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD reg 10(1)

...so not obeying the law is a technicality then. Must remember that one. Please say that email came from the office of Boris Rolling Eyes
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G
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 22 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the appropriate police force.
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 22 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO it's more dangerous for cyclists to be in front of motorcyclists at a red light than the other way around. Because a motorbike can usually find a way through the thicket of cyclists where a car cannot, yet there is still the risk of some wobbly noob doing something very unexpected.

We shall see. It's very rare that I see any enforcement of any road law whatsoever down my end (E1, E2, E3).
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G
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PostPosted: 17:48 - 22 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just found this - it's the TRL reports on motorcycles using the cycle box too. BCF members were among the guinea pigs.

Get it here.

Not very conclusive; I'm not convinced they asked the right questions.
This is perhaps the most interesting conclusion:
Quote:
With regards to participant comments that specifically mentioned motorcyclist safety: 23% of cyclists and 33% of motorcyclists remarked that there was a safety benefit for motorcyclists. Regarding cyclist safety, 9% of cyclists and 0% of motorcyclists remarked that there was a dis-benefit for cyclists.


Also, 69% of cyclists and 92% of motorcyclists thought that motorcycles should be allowed to use the cycle box.
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G
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PostPosted: 14:49 - 23 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no specific offence of entering a 'Bike Box'. The offence is contravening a solid white line at an automatic traffic signal. This is why the ASL has a gated entrance. You are correct in thinking that if a pedal cycle crosses the solid white line it would commit the same offence but clearly the intention of the box is to allow only pedal cycles to get in front of the waiting traffic. Obviously, the police must exercise common sense when enforcing these ASL's.

KSI data is provided by Transport for London and MPS intelligence units and this particular campaign is not the only action the MPS are taking in relation to KSI's but one of many initiatives to reduce these casualties on the roads in London.

I appreciate your personal view on these matters but unfortunately, they are just that and I can only work within a framework which has been legislated for by parliament. As I have already stated, the MPS are not targeting specific vehicles but simply enforcing the law at these locations to raise awareness, change attitudes and behaviours and ultimately save lives.


----

They are not targeting specific vehicles.
They are simply enforcing the laws.
They can only work within a framework legislated by parliament.
If a pedal cycle does the same thing as a motorcycle it is committing the same offence.
The police must use 'common sense'* when applying these rules.
* (By their own judgement, not parliament's, the TRL results, or other peoples, it seems - almost seems like, ya'know, they are actually targetting specific vehicles when enforcing the law Smile.)
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 23 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

2nd post in a row:

Metcops must:
act with honesty and integrity, fairness and impartiality
not abuse their powers and authority
act in a manner that does not discredit or undermine public confidence in the police service.
If you feel that someone working for the police has not met these standards, you can make a complaint.
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goto10
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PostPosted: 17:05 - 23 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if the actual offence isn't entering the bike box but rather going over the solid white line on a red, what if I used the cycle lane's gated entry instead? (Where it exists) Surely then I get to use the bike box for a bargain £30 (for using the cycle lane) and no points VS £60 and 3 points..?
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 17:07 - 23 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if I go around the side and enter via the parallel white line rather than the perpendicular one?

Or if I go through the junction on the other side of the road where there isn't a white line?

Surely there's more to it?
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 21:17 - 23 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a police team at the junction of Hackney Road, Shoreditch High Street and Old Street this morning on my way to work.

But rather than police the cycle box, it looked more like they were policing cyclists who were running reds!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9RwRfR30yQ
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