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£60 fines and CCTV crackdown on drivers who stop in bike box

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treeno
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Joined: 26 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: 21:38 - 30 May 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Stinkwheel, maybe they are going to try and enforce it for people who enter the box after the light has gone red or if it was otherwise safe to stop before the box? If that's the case it's inevitably going to lead to plod ticketing people who they see in the box regardless of why they are in there and those people having to prove they did it for a reason.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 22:16 - 30 May 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
treeno wrote:
Stinkwheel, maybe they are going to try and enforce it for people who enter the box after the light has gone red or if it was otherwise safe to stop before the box? If that's the case it's inevitably going to lead to plod ticketing people who they see in the box regardless of why they are in there and those people having to prove they did it for a reason.


They would have to do you for failing to stop at a red light. It's the same offence.

Given the amount of CCTV about in that London, plod would have to very careful not to perjur himself if he started handing out tickets willy-nilly for people he found stopped between the lines then standing up in court and saying they went through on a red.

A conventional red light camera wouldn't work in this situation either because they take a picture of your vehicle across the stop line with the red light in shot. You could quite legally sit and straddle the first stop line for the whole red light cycle on an advance stop junction. One picture wouldn't do it, they'd have to have one picture of you BEHIND the line on a red light then a second one of you over it. Or a dynamic image.

By rights if you're following regulations, in slow moving traffic there would be a car stopped in every advance stop area every time the lights go red.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 07:51 - 31 May 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
gorillaonabike wrote:
The safety issue is significant and maybe non-Londoners are unaware of the issue. Would you prefer to be sandwiched between two cars / buses / lorries whose drivers are unlikely to have seen you or slip through to the front of the queue, visible?

Given the choice of 'more likely to die,' or 'less likely to die,' I know which option I'd prefer.

I also cycle in London occasionally and don't see why my life should be made safer when on a bicycle and yet made more dangerous on a motorbike. I think that bicycles and PTWs sharing the box could work. Hell, it does at the moment and I have personally never heard of an accident involving a motorbike and bicycle due to their sharing of the green box.


The reason cyclists are given priority at ASLs is because they are Human Powered.
Those in powered vehicles can WAIT.

Why is everyone in such a hurry?

Too many Drivers/Road Users in London are fcuking wank and a massive 'thining' is really the answer.
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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 08:53 - 31 May 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
Chapter and verse for Roger

Awwwww. Sad

stinkwheel wrote:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/images/uksi_20023113_en_112.gif

And that's the fellow. No cycle lane = not a valid cycle box. You don't get to just throw some random paint down and start handing out tickets based on what you meant to do.

Although granted that's not stopping councils from doing exactly that and raking in millions in fines that then get overturned when the likes of the NoToMob or some local stickler gets stuck into them.

As a remote party, what I really think about this issue is [dis-gunna-be-good.gif]
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 12:23 - 31 May 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
SUM STUF


I still can't find the 'Official' Directions/Instructions for council contractor to make an ASL.

I know the cycle lane rules but the actual dimensions are left to whatever the painter thinks is a cycle lane. There are book on the subject of how shite cycle lanes are. I bet there is legislation guidance for design too.
But if the cooncils CBA to do the lanes properly is there any sign (no pun) of them suddenly complying just coz Boris the Buffoon started a shite fight in Lahndahn?
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Joncrete Cungle
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PostPosted: 15:02 - 31 May 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
The councils and TfL will fine anyone for as de minimis reasons as the cameras can possibly make out. Why? Becasue for all the parking / bus lane and box junction fines 99.7% pay up with little or no protest. Only 0.3% have the minerals to take it to PATAS. Of the 0.3% who drag the Councils or TfL to PATAS, half of them win their appeals and pay nothing.

But as so many mugs just cough up, without checking defective or missing signage, defective, missing or plain wrong road markings and TROs. Not to mention defective paperwork from the council / TfL, the state doesn't care while the cash from the numpties keeps rolling in. In fact the state will be expanding the CCTV for your 'safety' as at £60 or £130 a time it soon wipes its face and generates tensof thousands, hundreds of thousands or even millions of pounds of income per annum per camera.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 16:23 - 31 May 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Joncrete Cungle wrote:
The councils and TfL will fine anyone for as de minimis reasons as the cameras can possibly make out. Why? Becasue for all the parking / bus lane and box junction fines 99.7% pay up with little or no protest. Only 0.3% have the minerals to take it to PATAS. Of the 0.3% who drag the Councils or TfL to PATAS, half of them win their appeals and pay nothing.

But as so many mugs just cough up, without checking defective or missing signage, defective, missing or plain wrong road markings and TROs. Not to mention defective paperwork from the council / TfL, the state doesn't care while the cash from the numpties keeps rolling in. In fact the state will be expanding the CCTV for your 'safety' as at £60 or £130 a time it soon wipes its face and generates tensof thousands, hundreds of thousands or even millions of pounds of income per annum per camera.


The state doesn't make that much. The operators and equipment manufacturers are the winners.
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Joncrete Cungle
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 12 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02xcnpr

Quote:
When a CCTV camera snaps your car and you get a ticket in the post, how annoyed do you get? More motorists face this frustration as councils are now fining drivers in ever-greater numbers after capturing them on CCTV. They claim they do it to keep the traffic flowing smoother. But private emails obtained by Panorama reveal a different story, with officials congratulating each other on the number of tickets issued: 'Another record month, guys. Well done,' says one. The programme visits the box junction where the council fines so many drivers - 29,000 last year alone - that it's known as the 'Money Box', and tries to find new ways to cut down the mountain of traffic tickets now issued every year.


Daily Wail Embarassed

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2339877/Traffic-fines-hit-record--guys-Emails-reveal-councils-target-drivers-raise-cash.html

Quote:
Damning evidence of how councils use CCTV cameras to ‘sting’ motorists with unfair fines to raise extra cash is revealed today.

Emails expose officials’ delight that rising numbers of traffic fines are being issued, with one saying: ‘Another record month, guys. Well done.’

Hundreds of the documents were released to a motoring campaigner under the Freedom of Information Act and will be screened tonight in an investigation by BBC1’s Panorama.

They show how surveillance cameras are catching out cars performing U-turns and being stuck in box junctions as part of a ‘target-based, revenue-raising culture’.

The programme highlights Britain’s most notorious yellow box junction, which has been dubbed ‘the money box’ for raking in £2.7million a year by trapping and photographing up to 40,000 drivers before sending them a £130 fine in the post.

Motoring groups say such tactics ‘verge on entrapment’ and fear they will spread across Britain.

The programme obtained hundreds of emails between employees at the London Borough of Hammersmith & Fulham which show staff being congratulated on increasing the number of fines.

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Joncrete Cungle
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PostPosted: 16:09 - 12 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Now for those push bikes at the front of the queue at traffic lights boxes.

https://nutsville.com/2013/05/30/poorly-worded-law-could-scupper-boris-johnson%E2%80%99s-cycling-czar-andrew-gilligans-plans-on-cycle-boxes/

Quote:
In yesterdays Evening Standard there was an article by Ross Lydall explaining that“Boris Johnson’s cycling czar Andrew Gilligan wants Transport for London to enforce “advance stop lines” with CCTV cameras in a similar way to bus lanes.”



Gilligan was quoted as saying “At present, you have to have a police officer standing at the junction or in a police car. What we can do is stick a camera up and do automatic enforcement. That will sort out the problem.“

The cycling czars reasons for taking away responsibility for the enforcement of ASL’s from the Metropolitan Police seems to be that TfL can do a more efficient job using CCTV than the MET.



But papers handed to Nutsville from a member of London Councils’ Transport and Environment Committee show a large fly sitting in the ointment for Gilligans’ plans for the safety of cyclists and/or depending on your cynicism raking in a huge amount of extra cash for TfL (Download emails here).



The papers we’ve been handed contain an email from Alan Rickwood from City of London Police explaining why the current ALS’s are difficult to enforce, claiming there is an error in the legislation “They can currently only be enforced by an officer on the ground, and the officer has to treat the cyclists and other road users equally, meaning cyclists will get penalised for crossing the first stop lines unless they use the feeder lane/gate.”



The Police email advice from Alan Rickwood highlights two main problems with ASL’s in London;



“Many ASLs do not comply with current TSRGD, in that they do not have a feeder lane of gate to allow cyclists to enter the box.”
Due to an error in the ASL legislation which left out the word ‘motor’ instead just referring to ‘vehicles’ meant that cyclists are also committing same offence as motorists if they cross the first stop line into an ASL when the traffic lights are on red.



The frustration is clear in the email when it says “My traffic policy advisor, Alan Rickwood, explained this to the DfT, TfL and others in 2003 and asked them to amend the legislation.” and “Changing the law to create a penalty for motorists only for crossing an advanced stop line will take a number of years. Probably, particularly as they have already wasted the 10 that have passed since they brought this poorly written piece of legislation out. They just need the will to do it.”



So to be clear as the law stands, all vehicles are prohibited from crossing the ASL when the traffic lights go red. Bicycles are included in the definition of “vehicles”, but are exceptionally allowed access where a cycle lane exists. If the legislation was changed to say “motorised vehicles”, the problem would lessen considerably, and make it easier to prosecute offending vehicles.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:19 - 12 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Joncrete Cungle wrote:
https://nutsville.com/2013/05/30/poorly-worded-law-could-scupper-boris-johnson%E2%80%99s-cycling-czar-andrew-gilligans-plans-on-cycle-boxes/

Dude! Very Happy
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Microcut
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 25 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: 21:12 - 17 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry to dig this up...although it's not really old

Quick question. At present (so without all the talk of special cameras), how are these fines issued?- how is it proved at the moment?- being caught in the act by the plod and given an on the spot fine?

Has anyone been fined with this law or heard of someone? I see no difference in the amount of bikers entering these boxes since this story has surged.
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CyrilSwan
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PostPosted: 21:42 - 17 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
At present only the Police can issue fines. This is something that one of Boris' mates wants to introduce...
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st3v3
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PostPosted: 01:16 - 18 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
J7mbo wrote:
Minty wrote:

Why do you simply HAVE to be right at the front? Sit between car no.1 and car no.2?

You are no better that the BMW/Audi drivers you seem to despise. You paint them as 'I have to be right at the front, I'm all that' characters and then rock up and think "I have to be right at the front, I'm all that". Confused


What? The point of filtering is.. go on? It's to get to the front. So I can set off without being in traffic. Nothing wrong with that, we all do it...
It's to advance your position in traffic in a safe yet timely fashion.

Joncrete Cungle wrote:

You might well laugh at London for now, but I bet the greedy cash hungry council where YOU live can't wait to unleash their own plethora of additional CCTV cameras to catch moving traffic 'violations' in your area.
I'm in North Yorkshire.

Feck CCTV, we don't even have speeding cam's stuck in the ground. Smile

'cos we's coool. Cool


Don't get how so many people stay fed up in London, but dont change it tbh.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:32 - 18 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
'sake, the police can't "issue fines", and I'm not even sure that this "offence" can even be dealt with by FPN at the moment, so what they can do is to report you to the CPS for prosecution and then if the CPS touch it (really?) you get to argue it in court.
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stinkwheel
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 18:23 - 18 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
'sake, the police can't "issue fines", and I'm not even sure that this "offence" can even be dealt with by FPN at the moment, so what they can do is to report you to the CPS for prosecution and then if the CPS touch it (really?) you get to argue it in court.


I believe it would be either failure to stop at a red light or failure to obey traffic sign. Depending on the circumstances.

Both can be dealt with by a FPN.
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sebastianw
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PostPosted: 10:53 - 19 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
If th eadvacnce stop line and box allow cyclists to avoid filtering up the left hand side of vehicles (and they take advantage of the opportunity) there could be a lot fewer KSI cyclists when vehicles turn left at junctions.

There is no reason I can see why MC's should not be alloowed to do the same.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 10:55 - 19 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
sebastianw wrote:
If th eadvacnce stop line and box allow cyclists to avoid filtering up the left hand side of vehicles (and they take advantage of the opportunity) there could be a lot fewer KSI cyclists when vehicles turn left at junctions.

There is no reason I can see why MC's should not be alloowed to do the same.


Eh?

Because cyclists generally occupy the gutter (they don't have the speed/power to get a primary position at junctions easily), whereas motorcycles don't.
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sebastianw
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PostPosted: 10:57 - 19 Jun 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cyclists should not occupy the gutter and should take advantage of the chance to move to the right in the green box. Power has nothing to do with it.
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thebarber
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PostPosted: 07:59 - 13 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
The most likely person to kill me is taxi drivers and the most likely person I could kill is a cyclist. Driving into London everyday I have to say that alot are maniacs. The cycle box is a waste of time just give them wider cycle lanes. How are they getting a head start (presuming they haven't run the red anyway) They are all overtaken in ten feet anyway it just creates a obstruction for 5 seconds at every light. Motorbikes are the fastest vehicle on the road who create the least traffic, forcing them back between cars will just get more bikers injured. If cyclists really cared about their health so much they would all wear helmets stop running reds and stop undertaking turning lorries. Its nice that they want the roads safer because they choose to ride a pushbike but that's their choice for which I am not responsible why should we make changes just because they want to do something dangerous. If I wanted to jog in the road should I insist they make it safer for me.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:42 - 13 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
thebarber wrote:
<rant>

I like this one, can we keep him?
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Hefty
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PostPosted: 12:41 - 13 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
If cyclists are to be given their own road lanes, priority at junctions, advance stop boxes that no other road users can enter etc then why ain't they made to sit a basic test and aquire a licence before they use the road like the rest of us?
As the 'most vulnerable' road users surely it's the most necessary.

Anyways, back on subject..
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G
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PostPosted: 13:08 - 13 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mr Lee wrote:
If cyclists are to be given their own road lanes, priority at junctions, advance stop boxes that no other road users can enter etc then why ain't they made to sit a basic test and aquire a licence before they use the road like the rest of us?

They already are.

And because it'd be a bit ridiculous, frankly.
Do you think the cyclists you see breaking the rules don't know them?
Do motorcyclists follow the rules because they've done a test?
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 13:32 - 13 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why don't they focus on something useful like fining folk who stop in Box Junctions.
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G
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PostPosted: 13:54 - 13 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
chris-red wrote:
Why don't they focus on something useful like fining folk who stop in Box Junctions.

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=266636

Hmmm.
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goto10
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PostPosted: 15:10 - 13 Aug 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
I did Bikesafe a few weeks back with the Met, they told us all that this new ASL camera system was now 'live', so naturally I've been more careful to avoid these ASL boxes. I've even been raged at by a cyclist for not going into the box in the West end - he pulled up behind me between cars and started shouting for me to pull forward so he could get through and into the box, which would've meant me going over the ASL on a red. It was a busy junction so I didn't (in my mind the busiest junctions will be the most likely to have a camera somewhere ready & waiting...) - so in this instance it put the cyclist at more risk.
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