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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 00:45 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaNsA wrote:
hitting google images with Slap A Bitch

And it used to be just "slap".

We'll have a lot of apologising to do to our sons. Very quietly, where no one can hear.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 00:50 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowlydoesit wrote:
try not to let adverts on TV in the UK and the US that portray men as being a bit thick compared to their cool, competent female partners get to me, but they really irritate. "So easy even a man can do it", anyone? Why can't I be seen as an equal person?



Has it never occurred to you that these ads are insulting to women as well ?
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 00:59 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boozehawk wrote:
Has it never occurred to you that these ads are insulting to women as well ?

I think the whole premise of modern feminism, which in essence is that women are weak, helpless and need special treatment, is insulting to women.

EDIT: Not sure if you're making a subtle satirical point or being serious.
FURTHER EDIT: But if you're being serious, your comment typifies the attitude that it's always somehow women who are hurt by or get the raw deal in any given situation even if it appears as if said situation is disadvantageous for men, because misogyny.


Last edited by slowlydoesit on 01:06 - 10 Mar 2014; edited 2 times in total
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 01:00 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaNsA wrote:
Do you remember the recent fuss about getting a woman on one of the notes?

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isnt there a woman on every fucking 5/10/20/50 quid note?


The fuss wasn't about putting a woman on the note it was the hate campaign launched over social media at the woman who suggested it.
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Benno
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PostPosted: 01:16 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boozehawk wrote:
CaNsA wrote:
Do you remember the recent fuss about getting a woman on one of the notes?

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isnt there a woman on every fucking 5/10/20/50 quid note?


The fuss wasn't about putting a woman on the note it was the hate campaign launched over social media at the woman who suggested it.


No...no, that's not what I saw on the BBC. I saw a woman campaigning because she thought women were underrepresented on our paper money. Why does the gender of the person matter Surely we're above such petty things, right? Right...?

Also see this
https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/womens-rights-activist-charged-with-rape-threat-hoax-on-face

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=4731

Happens more often than you think


Boozehawk wrote:
slowlydoesit wrote:
try not to let adverts on TV in the UK and the US that portray men as being a bit thick compared to their cool, competent female partners get to me, but they really irritate. "So easy even a man can do it", anyone? Why can't I be seen as an equal person?



Has it never occurred to you that these ads are insulting to women as well ?


[Falls into criteria: "over-analysis"]

WARNING: You are exhibiting symptoms of FEMINISM! I suggest you seek treatment at once!
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Last edited by Benno on 01:20 - 10 Mar 2014; edited 1 time in total
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 01:19 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bubbs wrote:

Wtf is mumsnet?


Its like BCF but populated by women and instead of motorcycles they have people carriers and 4x4s.
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krarkol
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PostPosted: 01:45 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm definitely all for equal rights, that's why if a woman hit me I'd whack her back.
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Benno
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PostPosted: 01:51 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mumsnet is the labour government's "how2govern" manual
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Bubbs
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PostPosted: 11:32 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to see feminism the same as most of you. Had a lot of heated arguments with these warrior types that seem to start an argument about everything. I'm not really talking about the bandwaggon women who hate men and are stuck up their own arse.

My guidance has come in the form of having stoned conversations and just talking things through with chilled out (lady) friends. They are calm and listen to your arguments, and have the time to calmly talk things through.

The whole rape culture thing is what got me riled up originally, but when it was explained to me that 90% of women who are raped are not dressed provocitively and a hight percentage also get raped in their own homes... Thought that was quite a staggering statistic. My argument was that if they dress like sluts then they should have known better.... I was proved wrong.

Thanks for the negative karma by the way Laughing
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 11:39 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is feminism not responsible for the Emasculation of men in modern day society?

As the years gone by I have noticed women becoming more like men, and men becoming more like women.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 12:23 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bubbs wrote:
The whole rape culture thing is what got me riled up originally, but when it was explained to me that 90% of women who are raped are not dressed provocitively and a hight percentage also get raped in their own homes... Thought that was quite a staggering statistic. My argument was that if they dress like sluts then they should have known better.... I was proved wrong.



So your still suggesting that the women who dress "provocatively" somehow invite being assaulted. It really dousent matter if all women all of the time dressed like they were trying out for a job posing in porn mags that dousent justify or lesson the serious nature of sexual assault.
To use an analogy that folks here might understand, its like saying that because a minority of road users choose to ride around on two wheeled machines with no big metal box around them that they "deserve" to be smahed into by car drivers.
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Tracey Suntan-King
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PostPosted: 13:26 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhilDawson8270 wrote:
shereen wrote:
When women still do not get equal pay and most high ranking job positions are filled by men is it not acceptable for women to have a hissy fit about it?


When Men get a year off paid at the age most people are making a career and can then walk back into a job demanding specialist treatment, then we can discuss equality in work.


And when you squeeze something the size of your own head out through your todger, I'll pay YOU for a year. Wink
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 13:33 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boozehawk wrote:
To use an analogy that folks here might understand, its like saying that because a minority of road users choose to ride around on two wheeled machines with no big metal box around them that they "deserve" to be smahed into by car drivers.

I don't think they deserve to be smashed. I certainly think it's incumbent upon riders of two-wheelers to take additional precautions given their lack of visibility to car drivers, limited traction and relative vulnerability in a collision.

Rape is never right. A rapist has committed a crime in the way that somebody who commits violent assault has committed a crime. My objection to the "wear anything you want, go anywhere you want, do anything you want" attitude supported by feminists is a simple one: we should not be encouraging potential victims to adopt behaviours that are likely to result in them becoming actual victims.

Let me propose another analogy. You are a West Ham fan and attend a game in which the Hammers beat Millwall 3-0. Afterwards, wandering the streets of Bermondsey after a few too many drinks with your mates, you encounter a pub overflowing with resentful Millwall supporters. Your mates beat a hasty retreat while you - for reasons unclear - walk into the pub in your West Ham shirt and start singing "Threeee niilll, threee niilll" at the top of your voice. A short while later you are admitted to the St Thomas A&E department with several serious injuries including a depressed fracture of the cheekbone, a stanley knife slash to your ear and two broken ribs. You are no longer singing.

Did you break the law? No.
Did the people who assaulted you break the law? Emphatically yes.
Did you act in a manner guaranteed to be provocative? Yes.
Should that influence the judgement of a court of law? I'm not qualified to say whether in reality it does or not but I think it probably should not. A serious crime has been committed.

Most normal people would agree that you put yourself in a dangerous situation and you paid the price. They would also agree that your attackers should be found and brought to justice. But off the record, I'm sure that a majority of people in the UK would agree that your actions were unnecessary and indeed downright stupid. The phrase "no common sense" would no doubt be invoked by many. We know that although trouble can usually be avoided, men who go out looking for trouble are going to find it.

What feminists are saying is that if a woman goes looking for trouble, she has the right not to get into trouble. She must always be protected from the responsibility for her actions, however immature or unwise those actions are. I disagree. I believe that adult women, just like adult men in the above example, should take sensible precautions against getting caught up in dangerous situations. As a practical matter, the law cannot be there to look after you 24/7. If women go looking for trouble they will find it, just as the man in the hypothetical situation above found trouble. Crimes will be committed against them, crimes that could have been avoided.

In some future utopian world, both men and women may be able to walk around and say and do anything they like with no fear of being attacked, raped or murdered. We do not live in that world. Until we do, both men and women should take responsibility for their actions. Unfortunately the idea that women should be held responsible for anything is anathema to modern feminists so they encourage young women to behave in ways that make a crime likely to be committed against them. It's a triumph of dogma over reality and the victims are the girls who thought they would always be safe.


Last edited by slowlydoesit on 12:35 - 05 Apr 2014; edited 3 times in total
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Bubbs
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PostPosted: 13:46 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boozehawk wrote:
Bubbs wrote:
The whole rape culture thing is what got me riled up originally, but when it was explained to me that 90% of women who are raped are not dressed provocitively and a hight percentage also get raped in their own homes... Thought that was quite a staggering statistic. My argument was that if they dress like sluts then they should have known better.... I was proved wrong.



So your still suggesting that the women who dress "provocatively" somehow invite being assaulted. It really dousent matter if all women all of the time dressed like they were trying out for a job posing in porn mags that dousent justify or lesson the serious nature of sexual assault.
To use an analogy that folks here might understand, its like saying that because a minority of road users choose to ride around on two wheeled machines with no big metal box around them that they "deserve" to be smahed into by car drivers.


See slowlydoesits response. I was going to cover the same points but I wouldn't have been as clear and concise.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 13:47 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowlydoesit wrote:

In some future utopian world, both men and women may be able to walk around and say and do anything they like with no fear of being attacked, raped or murdered. We do not live in that world. Until we do, both men and women should take responsibility for their actions. Unfortunately the idea that women should be held responsible for anything is anathema to modern feminists so they encourage young women to behave in ways that make a crime likely to be committed against them. It's a triumph of dogma over reality and the victims are the girls who thought they would always be safe.


But you get my point?

This stuff has been well discussed in the past. Camille Paglia was writing about this over twenty years ago. The was a spate of feminist-correctness in American universities that was having young men thrown out of colleges just for making a pass at a fellow student.

CAmille Paglia aslo recognised that there was a culture that gave a dangerous impression to women that their right to be safe did not mean they were safe and that really a culture of sensible risk assesment should be encouraged instead.
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Bubbs
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PostPosted: 13:58 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boozehawk wrote:


CAmille Paglia aslo recognised that there was a culture that gave a dangerous impression to women that their right to be safe did not mean they were safe and that really a culture of sensible risk assesment should be encouraged instead.


I totally agree with that point. This is where I was having massive disagreements with feminist warriors. I was saying - well if a sadistic rapist wants to rape you then he would more likely get turned on more by a woman dressed slutty. Just because women should have the right to be safe does not mean jack shit if the were going to do the deed.

It's a dangerous world out there.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 14:04 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boozehawk wrote:
CAmille Paglia aslo recognised that there was a culture that gave a dangerous impression to women that their right to be safe did not mean they were safe and that really a culture of sensible risk assesment should be encouraged instead.

I think Paglia mostly makes sense but she doesn't represent modern feminisim. Indeed she was reviled by the usual crowd for a recent interview in which she gave opinions they deemed to be unacceptable for a woman to hold. Thoughtcrime, in other words. [EDIT: Typically OTT but amusing A Voice For Men rebuttal to Jezebel article here.]

I'm not sure I take your point unless your point is simply that rape is a crime, in which case we are in agreement. I don't believe in giving either men or women a free pass to behave irresponsibly in high-risk situations.


Last edited by slowlydoesit on 14:18 - 10 Mar 2014; edited 1 time in total
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bazza
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PostPosted: 14:10 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benno wrote:
Mumsnet is the labour government's "how2govern" manual


Where "equality" actually means "significant advantage", but only when applied to the sisterhood...
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 14:10 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bubbs wrote:


I totally agree with that point. This is where I was having massive disagreements with feminist warriors. I was saying - well if a sadistic rapist wants to rape you then he would more likely get turned on more by a woman dressed slutty.


That's not true. Its the basic misconception around sexual violence. Men who rape are men who exploit a power differential in order to excersise their violent sexual impulses.

It does sound that despite your "feminist" stance your still holding onto the idea that women by wearing certain clothes women are hanging a big symbolic sign round their neck saying "please take whatever sexual gratification from me you want in whatever way you want". So what do you mean by "dressed slutty" anyway?
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 14:22 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boozehawk wrote:
It does sound that despite your "feminist" stance your still holding onto the idea that women by wearing certain clothes women are hanging a big symbolic sign round their neck saying "please take whatever sexual gratification from me you want in whatever way you want". So what do you mean by "dressed slutty" anyway?

Er, are you seriously suggesting that visual stimuli are irrelevant in male sexuality?
That physical appearance has no role in triggering feelings of desire/lust in men?
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 14:58 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowlydoesit wrote:
Boozehawk wrote:
It does sound that despite your "feminist" stance your still holding onto the idea that women by wearing certain clothes women are hanging a big symbolic sign round their neck saying "please take whatever sexual gratification from me you want in whatever way you want". So what do you mean by "dressed slutty" anyway?

Er, are you seriously suggesting that visual stimuli are irrelevant in male sexuality?
That physical appearance has no role in triggering feelings of desire/lust in men?


And are you suggesting that once in a state of sexual desire a man is then compelled to rape? Dressing to feel attractive or to conform to a culture of sexyness is not an invitation to be assualted. If you think it is you may as well bunk up with the Sharia law lot and have all women dress top to toe in a big blanket.
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Benno
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PostPosted: 15:24 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bubbs wrote:
The whole rape culture thing is what got me riled up originally, but when it was explained to me that 90% of women who are raped are not dressed provocitively and a hight percentage also get raped in their own homes... Thought that was quite a staggering statistic. My argument was that if they dress like sluts then they should have known better.... I was proved wrong.


Why would you argue that? It was never the argument to begin with. They invented it themselves and then argued against it. The Canadian police officer that originally said it was only saying "you might be safer if you dressed more sensibly" which is akin to saying the same about how one might dress in a crime-ridden neighbourhood. They overreacted and started walking around Toronto naked.

Why is it a staggering statistic? Crime happens. This is like saying a high percentage of spousal murders happen IN THEIR OWN HOME! Shocked

https://cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/captain-obvious-5-nobrain1.jpg


Honestly I don't even get why this is something people argue about. Or anything to do with feminism really. It's simple stuff yet people twist it and misinterpret it (deliberately sometimes) and yell about it.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 16:20 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boozehawk wrote:
slowlydoesit wrote:

Er, are you seriously suggesting that visual stimuli are irrelevant in male sexuality?
That physical appearance has no role in triggering feelings of desire/lust in men?

And are you suggesting that once in a state of sexual desire a man is then compelled to rape?

No, I'm suggesting that the kind of men who rape women (to repeat, an unambiguously criminal act) will be attracted by women who are dressed in a way that emphasises their sexuality. In most situations a potential rapist presumably has a choice of victims. Why would he pick the girl with no makeup, a shapeless woolly jumper and baggy cargo pants if there is a more obviously attractive victim in a barely there minidress and high heels?

I don't mean that women should just wear the hijab and be done with it. Most of the time dressing in an overtly sexy style isn't going to cause problems but as a practical matter it's neither safe nor sensible to treat all situations as identically risky. Most men modify their dress and their behaviour according to the situation, women should do likewise and presumably most already do.

To reuse the analogy I suggested earlier, it may be perfectly acceptable to wear a West Ham shirt to Sunday lunch at your local country tavern. It's probably a bad idea to wear it to some grotty Rotherhithe pub on a Saturday night after a disappointing result. Context is everything. Obviously modern feminists disagree.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowlydoesit wrote:

No, I'm suggesting that the kind of men who rape women (to repeat, an unambiguously criminal act) will be attracted by women who are dressed in a way that emphasises their sexuality. In most situations a potential rapist presumably has a choice of victims. Why would he pick the girl with no makeup, a shapeless woolly jumper and baggy cargo pants if there is a more obviously attractive victim in a barely there minidress and high heels?

I don't mean that women should just wear the hijab and be done with it. Most of the time dressing in an overtly sexy style isn't going to cause problems but as a practical matter it's neither safe nor sensible to treat all situations as identically risky. Most men modify their dress and their behaviour according to the situation, women should do likewise and presumably most already do.

To reuse the analogy I suggested earlier, it may be perfectly acceptable to wear a West Ham shirt to Sunday lunch at your local country tavern. It's probably a bad idea to wear it to some grotty Rotherhithe pub on a Saturday night after a disappointing result. Context is everything. Obviously modern feminists disagree.


Rapist are not just like some version of you with a boner on but in overdrive. Rapist are all about opportunity not "sexyness". Rape dousent happen as an accident caused by some guy going into a frenzy of an overly active sex drive. Thats one of the basic misconceptions around rape. The perpetuation of that misunderstanding needs challanging as it was one of the reasons so many women in the past have not been taken seriously when they went for help.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 16:50 - 10 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benno wrote:


Why would you argue that? It was never the argument to begin with. They invented it themselves and then argued against it. The Canadian police officer that originally said it was only saying "you might be safer if you dressed more sensibly" which is akin to saying the same about how one might dress in a crime-ridden neighbourhood. They overreacted and started walking around Toronto naked.




Honestly I don't even get why this is something people argue about. Or anything to do with feminism really. It's simple stuff yet people twist it and misinterpret it (deliberately sometimes) and yell about it.


They went nuts because an officer of the law who should know better made a statement which could be easily interpreted as upholding the damaging misconception that getting raped is a womans own fault because of the way she dresses.

Its easy to forget that its not that long ago in our own culture that women had no more rights than they do in places like Afghanistan today. I think anyone sensitive to that, who aspires to the development of civilisation would react when elements of society are seemingly happy to regress.
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