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Fettling a Kawasaki KMX 200

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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 06:44 - 09 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevo as b4 wrote:
I do however like the design of modern trials bikes, where they use a small front disc, and a 4pot caliper. I don't know as I said how well something like the summitomo 4pot would work on a small disc, but for off road use, I think using a reasonably small disc would be better?

There's one on ebay from an FJR1300 and the listing mentions that the mounting holes are 100mm apart, vs the 45mm of the KMX. So you'd need some kind of adapter bracket I suppose. It would have to be some accurate machining. Thinking I also wonder if a caliper like that wouldn't just make the KMX stand on its head every time you touched the front brake! Laughing
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Kawasaki KMX200 with broken fixed powervalves and a stutter
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 17:56 - 09 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Not sure how much benefit you would get from just swapping the caliper to a 4 pot one. Twin pot sliding calipers have some advantages (they are stiffer generally - not really an advantage over the 4 pot Yamaha blue spot calipers).

You still would have the smaller disk. Bigger disk gives more heat dissipation, the disk is moving more quickly over the pads at any given speed generating more heat, plus possibly the caliper has more torque on the wheel (not that certain on this).

All the best

Keith
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 21:55 - 10 May 2014    Post subject: Re: Brakes done, sticky carb, slow rev counter Reply with quote
slowlydoesit wrote:
Next step is to clean and rebuild the carb.

A wet and very windy day in West Wales, made all the more obvious by the hilltop location of the workshop in which the KMX currently sits. The carb refurb kit arrived safely and seemed to have all the bits. While my friend worked on his car, I removed the carb from its mountings and started to strip it. Taking off the float bowl was complicated by the ruined heads of the existing screws but we muscled them off anyway with a molegrip-type tool.

Inside the carb was in pretty good shape. There was some crud in the float bowl, but nothing major. I cleaned it out with carb cleaner, a toothbrush and blasts from the compressor. (Apologies in advance for variable quality of pictures!)

Before:
https://i.imgur.com/mlEpy2r.jpg
After:
https://i.imgur.com/XjcZx6Q.jpg

The body of the carb was similar - mucky but not too bad. We replaced the main jet and most of the other components and cleaned it up a bit.

Before:
https://i.imgur.com/shgI0bN.jpg

After:
https://i.imgur.com/37HbRmc.jpg

I checked the float height, which was spot-on at 21mm. Then I put the carb back together. Thanks to my mate's stocks of useful odds and ends we were able to use new allen-headed M4 bolts to reattach the float bowl. At one corner the bolt interfered with the mixture screw, being just a bit too long. I took the bolt off and screwed a nut on the end leaving just a few millimeters of the bolt sticking out. I put the bolt and nut combination in the vice vertically so that the head of the bolt and the nut were both gripped and hacksawed the protruding bit of the bolt off by cutting horizontally. Then I unscrewed the nut to leave a clean thread. Worked fine. Thumbs Up

https://i.imgur.com/zpgIhf3.jpg

Then I put the carb back on the bike. Getting the throttle cable through the throttle valve while holding the spring and the retaining clip in took me ages. The spring got away from me a couple of times and I got paranoid about the spring exploding out of my fingers and into my eye. A pair of safety glasses made me more confident, but I escaped unscathed anyway.

Eventually I got the job done by compressing the spring into the throttle cap and holding this in one hand with the throttle cable sticking out, then poking the cable UP through the hole in the throttle valve, which I was holding inverted in the other hand. Well, I guess you had to be there.

When I had finished the valve didn't initially slide into place - it had to be prodded before it snapped shut - but that didn't strike me as a problem.

So, we put more petrol in the tank, took the bike outside and bump-started it. It ran fine once we had sorted out the idle, so we bumbled around the garden. It was very slippery on the wet grass and moss and I almost had an embarassing moment when the rear wheel slid, then gripped suddenly. A vision of myself highsiding at 10mph flashed in front of my eyes - oh the shame! Embarassed Fortunately I didn't come off.

Then we noticed that every now and again the throttle wasn't returning properly, leading to runaway revs. Sticky throttle cable? Throttle valve slide sticking? Probably the latter.

Then when we put it inside a little petrol came out of the overflow again, the same symptom as last week. Disappointing in one sense but a productive day in another - at least we've taken a peek inside the carb and we know that the new parts should be fine. For me it was an educational few hours, as I haven't stripped a carb for twenty years.

Next week we'll take the carb apart again and have a closer look to see what we might have missed.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 09:09 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just to recap, I bought the bike with an aftermarket expansion chamber (probably Big One brand) and two silencers, a DEP and an OEM Kawasaki silencer, but it's the silencer for the KMX125 not the KMX200. Frankly even with the OEM silencer the bike sounds horrible, not just two-stroke loud but harsh and buzzy.

Based on advice in this post from dangerousdave, who's already been through the whole "how can I get a better exhaust" cycle, I decided to try to get an OEM KMX200 pipe and silencer. After a little googling it looks like I may have been able to source one of each, but it will be a week or two before I take delivery and can check the quality of the items. The silencer looks okay other than a little dink on it, the pipe also looks all right, bit of surface rust but claimed to be otherwise fine.

The perils of buying on auction sites. Rolling Eyes

https://i.imgur.com/qCU5nPE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OFy6yop.jpg
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Kawasaki KMX200 with broken fixed powervalves and a stutter

Last edited by slowlydoesit on 22:21 - 15 May 2014; edited 1 time in total
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dangerousdave
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Silencer looks minty fresh. I'd be well happy with that.

Expansion will clean up well with a wire brush and some heat proof paint. A decoke would probably do it good aswell.

I bung the end up and fill it with caustic soda solution, and leave overnight. Then flush it with clean water until it runs clear.

If you do this be careful with the caustic soda as it's seriously corrosive. Always wear goggles, and gloves.
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1988 Kawasaki KMX 200

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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 22:19 - 15 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
dangerousdave wrote:
Silencer looks minty fresh. I'd be well happy with that.

Yeah, it's not that the Japanese don't mod bikes, but the proportion of people who are prepared to buy secondhand parts (or indeed secondhand anything) is much lower than in the UK. You should have seen the wife's lip curl when she heard I was buying a secondhand bike.

Anyway, the silencer looks pretty good for £40. Pipe was £55. Postage will be eye-watering though.

Decoking tips noted, ta. Already quite frightened of caustic soda so I think I'll have no problems being very, very, very careful.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 17 May 2014    Post subject: Re: Brakes done, sticky carb, slow rev counter Reply with quote
slowlydoesit wrote:
Next week we'll take the carb apart again and have a closer look to see what we might have missed.

Well, it's not clear what we missed but to begin with the conclusion, the bike is no longer pissing petrol everywhere and I'm going to book an MOT next week.

An absolutely glorious day here in West Wales and a nice drive over to my friend's workshop. About five minutes from his house I come up to a shallow junction on a back road and see a bike coming down the hill with a car behind it. The bike peels neatly off the main road into my side road - and promptly loses both wheels on the sheet of gravel that covers the centre of the junction. As it does so, I realise that the face behind my visor is that of my friend. Somehow he controls the slide, recovers, and zips off down the road behind me. His hoon was nearly over before it started.

While he's out I take the carb off the KMX and strip it again. I look thoughtfully at the pieces of the carb refurb kit that we didn't use last week. There is a mystery rubber O-ring that doesn't seem to have a place, a float valve and a tiny circlip for the needle jet. We didn't use that as the existing circlip seemed fine.

https://i.imgur.com/2ygCRck.jpg

We didn't use the new float valve partly because the old float valve looked good enough to use. There is some wear on it, but very minor and not enough to change the form factor of the component. Still... I whip off the float pivot pin, remove the float and have another look at the old float valve.

https://i.imgur.com/C3QdCjk.jpg

As I'm comparing the old and new float valves, my friend comes back from his ride, parks up the bike and bustles up to the workbench. He has another look and notes that the new float valve doesn't have a little spring on it like the old float valve - that's the other reason we didn't use the new valve last week. The little spring on the old valve goes over a tang on the float and is what opens and closes the float valve. Not only does the new float valve not have a spring, it doesn't seem to have anywhere to attach a spring. Have we dropped the spring? Quick search on hands and knees. No. Nor do we remember ever seeing one. I don't have a good picture of the new float valve, but you can see it blurrily in the image below.

https://i.imgur.com/oSurGh0.jpg

My friend prods the tiny nub on the end of the new float valve and realises that it's spring loaded. One end has the tip that seats in the carb body, the other end has a sproingy bit. So with that in mind, do we even need a spring like the one that on the old float valve? We reason that the valve can't fall out once the float is in place, even if there is no spring attaching the valve to the tang of the float. Hmm. We decide to reassemble using the new float valve.

Back together goes the carb, in goes the needle into the throttle slide. While replacing the carb, my mate uses cable ties to compress the spring under the carb cap until he's managed to thread the throttle cable through the body of the slide. This works well - should have thought of this myself. Once he's done that he goes back to work on his bike. I faff around getting the inlet and outlet rubbers back on the carb, then reattach the choke and the fuel pipe.

We turn on the ignition and it starts second kick. Nice. The carb no longer leaks petrol. We take it in turns riding round the garden and field and agree that it's idling a lot better now. It's smoking quite a bit but not worryingly so - probably needs a good run.

I will book an MOT for the end of next week. The front brake may need another bleeding before then - it's still not very good. Hopefully it will get me through the MOT. Beyond that, I have ordered the brake upgrade kit described in this post and that may make a difference to braking performance.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 10:46 - 18 May 2014    Post subject: Re: Brakes done, sticky carb, slow rev counter Reply with quote
slowlydoesit wrote:
I don't have a good picture of the new float valve, but you can see it blurrily in the image below.

Having poked around a bit more on the internet I have found a good picture of a genuine Mikuni needle (see below) that looks similar to the one I just installed. It has the same little spring-loaded nub and those concave sides.

https://i.imgur.com/50A3oaq.jpg

The item is on Ebay.co.uk and is described as "Mikuni Needle & Seat #2 VM26/26-2" and "VM26-VM28 BN34 BN38 BN44 - Metal Tip". I'm hoping that this is the needle mentioned in this post by dangerousdave who inevitably has already looked into this. Apparently the UK KMX200 had two needles fitted, one delivering 30bhp and one 24bhp. The part you want is the 4FL46-2 needle, not the 4FL44-2 needle. However, the Ebay listing mentioned above calls it "#2" which isn't helpful as it could be either the 4FL46-2 or the 4FL44-2 needle.

I note that if push came to shove and if the problems with the existing carb were to resurface there are a lot of new VM26 carbs about. The sticking factor is that there were/are loads of subtypes and the KMX200 seems to have used a specific variation called the VM26SS. It would be interesting to see whether a new VM26 would fit in place of the existing carb. Guess you'd have to look carefully at the jetting.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 23:18 - 18 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Mate, If your VM26 is knackered, you should find any other VM26 can be jetted the same, and a lot of the differences in sub types as you describe it are often for things like carb mounted choke vs remote choke, and handed carbs where everything is on opposite sides etc. Nothing insurmountable I would say though if you found a new carb cheap, with such differences.

Can I ask a favour when you remove the Big one/Fresco pipe to fit the OE one? If you can take some external measurements of the header pipe diameter, the belly section, and the stinger diameter, I could do the same and compare my 125 pipe, just to put to bed if the Fresco KMX 125 and 200pipes are the same volume and shape etc.

My 125 pipe is coming off after running in and once it's been on the dyno for a power run and fueling check. If it performs well then I'll get it shot blasted and plated, but if not I'll be trying another pipe to compare performance wise.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 23:29 - 18 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevo as b4 wrote:
Can I ask a favour when you remove the Big one/Fresco pipe to fit the OE one? If you can take some external measurements of the header pipe diameter, the belly section, and the stinger diameter, I could do the same and compare my 125 pipe, just to put to bed if the Fresco KMX 125 and 200pipes are the same volume and shape etc.

No problem at all, I will do that, take some photos side-by-side and post them with the measurements on here. Would be good to contribute something to the store of KMX information. It will probably be another couple of weeks before the new items arrive.

Thanks for the comments re the carb.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 23:33 - 29 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
The KMX200 passed its MOT this morning. Advisories on disc wear, wheel alignment and the bush on the shock.

I rode it five miles there, five miles back. Bike behaved itself, despite the engine racing when I kickstarted it first thing. It was very smokey at times - perhaps oil pump needs adjustment.

I was pretty tense as it was the first time on the bike and the first time on any two-wheeler for nearly two years but it was pleasant and easy to ride. Pulls fine, not that I went above 40 on the way or coming back.

When I got back to the workshop and parked up, the carb was pissing petrol again. That didn't happen at the MOT place. Next step is to strip down the fuel tap and replace the rubber bits. Perhaps the throttle cable needs oiling as well.
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dangerousdave
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PostPosted: 22:56 - 30 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
slowlydoesit wrote:
The KMX200 passed its MOT this morning. Advisories on disc wear, wheel alignment and the bush on the shock.

When I got back to the workshop and parked up, the carb was pissing petrol again. That didn't happen at the MOT place. Next step is to strip down the fuel tap and replace the rubber bits. Perhaps the throttle cable needs oiling as well.


Any rust in the fuel tank? A bit of muck can make the float stick and cause that carb to overfill. My bike does it sometimes.

Wouldn't worry about the smokey exhaust, they need a good run to clear them out. The oil builds up in the exhaust. Once it gets up to temperature it burns off.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 23:06 - 30 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
dangerousdave wrote:
Wouldn't worry about the smokey exhaust, they need a good run to clear them out. The oil builds up in the exhaust. Once it gets up to temperature it burns off.

Thanks, will look at the fuel tank. Might buy a new one if I can see something nice, as POR 15 and all the associated stuff easily runs to 50 quid. A few KMX125 tanks, not many 200 tanks though. Or they lack the tank cap.

The exhaust and silencer I bought have arrived in the UK but haven't made its way to my place yet. That new two-pot Tokico brake caliper also. Want to try that soon, front brake was not at all confidence inspiring when I rode it to the MOT.
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dangerousdave
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PostPosted: 23:36 - 30 May 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I remember when I bought this second KMX, the front brake was damn near seized. I mucked about with it a lot, rebuild, new pads etc. It was better, but never great.

I seem to remember the brakes being ok back in the day, but then I'd just ridden bikes equipped with drum front brakes. After a decade on Japanese sports bikes which offer blistering braking, the kmx's front brake seemed scary in comparison.

There is a lot to be said for gentle braking off-road, especially for novices. Don't want to loose the front end and all that. However, especially on the road I want to know I can stop quick if the need arises!!

One of the by products of swapping the front end is the improved braking. I can't fault it. Makes the knobbly squirm all over the place on tarmac, will be great when swapping to road tyres. People may say I have taken away the original spec of the bike, but it's not about that for me.

I hope your 2-pot caliper gives a good boost to the braking
At the very least, being a brand new part, it will work perfectly out of the box so won't have the faults associated with a used part.
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Previous: Yamaha YZF1000, ZZR600, KMX200, DT50, KX80, CG125, PF50
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 09:44 - 05 Jun 2014    Post subject: New expansion pipe Reply with quote
The expansion pipe arrived from Japan. It has surface rust, but otherwise it looks in pretty good condition. This is probably the most important part for me, as I really dislike the noise the KMX is making with its aftermarket pipe. I guess I should decoke before using...

https://i.imgur.com/e5mzffK.jpg?1

The worst of the rust? Wire brush needed.
https://i.imgur.com/uf6Hyl5.jpg?1

Rust-coloured but doesn't look deep:
https://i.imgur.com/ErD5cfH.jpg

Looks solid:
https://i.imgur.com/GnGyXtJ.jpg
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Kawasaki KMX200 with broken fixed powervalves and a stutter

Last edited by slowlydoesit on 09:52 - 05 Jun 2014; edited 1 time in total
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 09:52 - 05 Jun 2014    Post subject: Shiny silencer Reply with quote
New silencer. This looked good in the listing pics and is just as good in the metal. Really very clean.

https://i.imgur.com/i7gsw0H.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/EMVf5qT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bmSNS5M.jpg?1
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 09:58 - 05 Jun 2014    Post subject: Tokico 2-pot Reply with quote
As discussed earlier in the thread, here's the Tokico caliper with two pots. Brake pads were included in the deal. In the second image it almost looks as if those pistons have been inserted upside down! Nice of them to include copper washers for the banjo bolt. I'm hoping that when I get round to fitting it everything will go smoothly...

https://i.imgur.com/rKBDdSi.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BzijklJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5nWAHTk.jpg
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 17:50 - 05 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice shiny caliper you got there dude!

I'm really looking forward to seeing how this fits and how it works on your bike, so keep us posted.

Are KMX200 OEM pipe's very rare hard to find over here now? I don't know what they fetch but I my old pipe is in the same condition as the one you have brought I'd say, and has no dents or serious damage. I was never intending on fitting it to my 200cc originally as I wanted a one-off custom pipe. Now it's likely to be an off roader only I suppose a tough double skinned OEM pipe is a better plan though?
You'll be amazed at the weight difference between your current pipe and the factory one though!

I'm getting my new tyres fitted this weekend hopefully, I went for a Continental Trail attack2 front in 90/90/21 (tubed fitment) and a tubeless Conti classic attack rear in 110/90/18. Should be more than enough grip for road use and a smooth tyre to stop ponies escaping at the dyno too!

They recommended me Bridgestone BT45's as another choice and they do a 120/80/17 which I think fits your rear wheel. If your staying on the road then something like this I reckon would be a good bet, but the Pirelli MT60 would be a good choice for dry trails etc.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 12:58 - 06 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevo as b4 wrote:
Are KMX200 OEM pipe's very rare hard to find over here now?

Well, there have been lots of pipes advertised as "KMX200" on Ebay but none OEM so far. And I would need to verify the exact product number, as I don't trust people not to accidentally list a 125 pipe as a 200. I plan to do little rides out early in the morning but I live in a quiet village and I want to keep on the good side of the neighbours, so a less noisy OEM exhaust is a big thing for me even if it adds weight.

stevo as b4 wrote:
They recommended me Bridgestone BT45's as another choice and they do a 120/80/17 which I think fits your rear wheel. If your staying on the road then something like this I reckon would be a good bet

Yeah, Bridgestone does offer a BT45 in 120/90-17 which is my rear size, as well as a 90/90-21 for the front. So that's looking like a leading choice. Reviews are good.

Caliper is embarassingly shiny isn't it...
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 20:08 - 06 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's simple to tell the KMX125 and 200 OEM pipes apart though, they are shaped a little differently.

Not so easy to tell the Fresco/Big One pipes apart though. I will get around to taking some measurements of my 125 pipe and It'd be interesting to see if your 200 pipe is much different.
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dangerousdave
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PostPosted: 20:28 - 06 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
I bought a "200cc" Big one pipe a while ago to test on my bike.

I'll have a go at fitting it soon and see if the results are the same as I had before.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 07:58 - 12 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Apparently my tank has sprung another leak. Sad I will have to check it at the weekend. I have seen lots of KMX125 tanks on Ebay but not many KMX200 tanks. Does anybody know if the KMX125 and KMX200 tanks are interchangeable?
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dangerousdave
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PostPosted: 10:13 - 12 Jun 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, 125 and 200 tanks are interchangeable.

The later 125 tanks had a mount for a fake radiator shroud on the right hand side, that is the only difference.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 20:40 - 15 Jun 2014    Post subject: Baby steps Reply with quote
Not much good news despite working on the bike this weekend. It was really just a process of eliminating things one by one.

My friend welded the pinhole in the tank that I previously filled with putty and did a nice job of it. I then sprayed the bare patch on the tank with rattle cans and it looks fine. At the least it will prevent rust for a while.

We added the new brake caliper, which seems to work well.

I replaced the o-ring and other parts in the fuel tap.

The new exhaust I was worried about, but when it came to removal it came off easily, perhaps because I doused the bolts in Plus Gas a couple of weeks ago. The new exhaust is, as advised, comically heavy compared to the one I took off. It sounds much, much quieter as well and that's a good thing.

Unfortunately the problem with the revs running away is still not fixed. It doesn't happen always, just every now and again. I bought a fuel filter to exclude the possibility that crud in the fuel is getting trapped in the carb and preventing the float from returning smoothly but the filter turned out to be too large to fit in the space between the tank and the carb. So. Looking for a smaller filter. Might also try to strap the big filter somewhere close by and run longer fuel lines to the tank from the top of the filter and to the carb from the bottom of the filter.

Also ordered a new spark plug, just in case.

Ho hum. I'm making progress but it's slow, and the summer is passing by. This is why I advise people to buy new. Rolling Eyes
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 18:19 - 21 Jun 2014    Post subject: Re: Baby steps Reply with quote
Well, I think I found the cause of the flooding carb. I went over to the workshop this afternoon and attached a new, smaller filter inline between the tank and the carb with some new 6mm fuel hose, like so:

https://i.imgur.com/swMaI23.jpg

Then I started it. When I turned on the fuel and started kicking I smelt petrol. Looking down I could see that the carb had overflowed once again and fuel was trickling on to the floor. I rapped the side of the carb and it stopped. I went back to kicking and it started, initially with some smoke. Then it settled down and I revved it a little while watching the rev counter. There was no sign of the revs running away as they had been doing. Rev the bike and the tacho needle swings round, release and it swings back. Good. I took it for a few laps of the yard and it was tractable and running well. I stopped and watched the exhaust while I revved it. No smoke. Then I got off the bike and checked the fuel filter, to find this:

https://i.imgur.com/0WuMQot.jpg

I don't know what that sludgy stuff is, but this was the result of the engine running for five minutes. Initially it was white-ish but then turned brown. Once I saw this I called it quits for the day because the fuel filter would have filled with that crud had I kept going. I was hoping for a ride today, so that's a pity.

So, stuff is coming out of the tank. My hypothesis was that flakes of rust or metal were getting into the carb and jamming the float open and that's why I wanted a fuel filter with a see-through body. I seem to have been half right: it's not metal, as far as I can see, but it's something. The filter seems to be cleaning the fuel and in doing so stopping the racing engine problem, while the smoke from the exhaust has largely disappeared. (Previously it kept smoking while running - perhaps it was burning that crap that was creating the smoke?) All in all, a promising step forward.

I'm considering my next move. If I want to do a proper job I could empty the tank, wash it out, treat it with something to clean it all, then do a POR15. On the other hand, if I can get a good secondhand tank it would certainly be easier, more reliable and may be not much more expensive to just replace the tank.

Oh, here's the new brake caliper on the bike. Looking fine.

https://i.imgur.com/EETuelo.jpg

And the tank after repainting the bare patch with rattle cans last weekend:

https://i.imgur.com/Z2ac0nR.jpg
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Kawasaki KMX200 with broken fixed powervalves and a stutter
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