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Lathe rebuild/restoration

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pdg
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PostPosted: 16:11 - 12 Nov 2014    Post subject: Lathe rebuild/restoration Reply with quote

Ok, so it's not a bike...

Following many futile attempts to find a lathe that was A: affordable, B: in a condition to be worth the money and C: not sold to someone else after I'd left a deposit (grr) I had decided the best course of action was to make one. As happens in chat, people were chatting and I mentioned this plan - cue sickpup "I might have one for you".

A couple of days later and some pictures turned up of a (possibly 1950's) Smart and Brown Model L "precision plain turning toolroom lathe" that has been sat in a corner of a garden for about 4 years.

https://i.imgur.com/3gveMGV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TSEjvNM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LOSC2Dl.jpg

Mint innit, just needs carb clean and back brake Wink Still, rebuilding is a damn sight easier than building.

So, Monday saw me heading off to that there Londiniumshireland to drop off wheels and pick up lathe. Picking up required mechanical assistance... (as seen in pup's lightweight thread)

https://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad297/750RK/Lathe/2014-11-10144809.jpg

As an aside, the engine went well following the post-cambelt-snap rebuild.

So it followed me all the way home and I made a professional and complete assessment of the condition (I had a bit of a fiddle with some of it). Cosmetically it's rough so that's enough said about that. I shall be repainting eventually but first I need to strip and clean and see what, if anything, is broken/worn/missing.

Starting at the top (sort of) with the stripping and checking:

Headstock

https://i.imgur.com/tenDK05.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/I0erHXm.jpg

Is good. The nose bearing is a huge adjustable bronze sleeve, the end is a pair of preloaded ball races and the drive pulley runs on it's own set of bearings to reduce driveline vibration transmission to the cut. To be 'safe' I squirted oil down the lube holes and it turns easily and smoothly. I have now also freed off the collet closer so nothing needs actual repair or replacement there.

Tailstock

https://i.imgur.com/hyM2I5u.jpg

Was pretty much totally seized... Oil and wiggling saw it stripped then reassembled as in the pic above for 'testing'. All good, the handle now spins extremely smoothly with very little backlash (I may make a lash compensator at some point though). The device to lock the tail to the bed is partially missing and what's there is quite badly damaged - so that is on the list.

Bed

https://i.imgur.com/0uYjsGl.jpg

Looks bad... But, a couple of minutes with a nylon scouring pad and a bit of oil does this

https://i.imgur.com/q97g0lb.jpg

Less bad. There's some very slight dings here and there but no real damage and little wear.

Chuck

This was very seized... Heavy rust deposits in places and quite a lot of mud/dirt/crap stuck everywhere.

https://i.imgur.com/K8q3xrI.jpg

It came apart in the end though and it's good enough to put into service after proper cleaning - nothing broken and all there.

Cross slide (or compound screw feed unit)

Again, all seized (anyone see a pattern here?) - In one of the first pictures this is on the floor, partly covered in leaves and containing water.

https://i.imgur.com/bQKwcZq.jpg

Some stripping and it's looking to be serviceable as well. The sliding surfaces are in remarkably good condition under the crap.

https://i.imgur.com/o8K2QaJ.jpg

One of the hendles is a bit bent and one of the retaining pins snapped on removal - but certainly nothing major. I've got it apart some more since that picture and everything is still looking good internally.

The long bit sticking up is the locking bolt - I think this should be alright but the original big wingnut is missing.

Cabinet/base/motor/electrical system

No pics of this lot, but the cabinet is all good - solid cast iron, no cracks, no damage.

Motor looks and feels nearly new (in fact, it still has the stock/price sticker on it) and conveniently it's a single phase unit. The drive pulley has some damage to one of the three slots, but I can either dress it out enough to use or remake/replace the pulley. The intermediate shaft bearings and pulleys are all good too.

The electrics were a bit of a mish/mash - originally there was a 3phase motor and all the control for that was still there. When collecting it, bearing in mind the motley collection of wiring, the quickest and easiest way to deal with it was to chop it all out - it needed rewiring really anyway.


I think that's pretty much where I stand now so - to be continued. Questions/comments to the usual address.
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Last edited by pdg on 00:56 - 30 Dec 2015; edited 3 times in total
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alt tab
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PostPosted: 17:18 - 12 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice one chap, certainly looking forward to seeing it all shiny and ready to tear your arms off Thumbs Up
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 17:52 - 12 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Posting to watch.
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lihp
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PostPosted: 22:00 - 12 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subscribing then I can get you to make me shit when it's done
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 22:03 - 12 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice little plain-turning lathe.

For those who don't know, a plain-turning lathe is one that has no feed or lead-screw so all turning operations are manual and there's no screwcutting capability. You can still do a lot of good work with them though.

To clean that rust off the ways you are best-off using a slightly dulled flat carbide scraper. I can lend you mine if you like. It will push the rust right off and leave completely un-touched clean iron behind, finish with some WD40 and scotchbrite.

Need any help/advice just shout.
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Fisty
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PostPosted: 23:29 - 12 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

English lathe after 50 years of abuse.

https://i.imgur.com/TSEjvNM.jpg


Chinese made lathe bought in 2009 after 5 years of abuse. (its on the left about 1/3rd the way down)

https://apicalgroup.in/images/product%20tab/scrapimage.jpg

In my last year as an apprentice they scrapped all the colchester student lathes (from 1969) and replaced them with chinese made ones. These had all broken within 2 years. The sad thing is the colchesters were probably shipped to China as scrap and used to make shit ones.

We really don't make em like we used to. Good on you for saving it.
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evoboy
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PostPosted: 23:45 - 12 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an old Colchester sitting at the back of the workshop awaiting re-commissioning.

It came with the unit I'm currently renting.

Looks no where near as bad as this one rust wise, but I'm a lathe noob. Laughing
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pdg
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PostPosted: 01:22 - 13 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:

To clean that rust off the ways you are best-off using a slightly dulled flat carbide scraper. I can lend you mine if you like. It will push the rust right off and leave completely un-touched clean iron behind, finish with some WD40 and scotchbrite.

Need any help/advice just shout.


Cheers for the offer - I should be alright but I'll bear it in mind, never know.

The little bit that I cleaned off was using scotchbrite (I can use that word because it's the real name of the stuff I used Wink ) and gun oil. Took very little effort.

For the cross slide section, I used a stanley knife blade... I have found that if you use a brand new blade bare you can't apply enough pressure to start scraping the iron because it becomes uncomfortable to hold - get the angle right and it glides over the smooth iron surface and shaves off the rust/crap. I also run the new blade over an oilstone first to make sure there are no burrs on the edge. You can see how clean it got those bits while leaving the original (probably hand applied by a man in a shirt and tie under his shop coat) oil bearing flaking untouched. The main bed ways will probably get the same treatment.

Once the bulk of the 'garden patina' is gone, I may experiment with electrolysis to deal with the remainder of the rust/paint/crap - there are quite a few places that would be extremely awkward to get to by hand. I want to play around with some other bits first before I trust the process on the lathe parts.

Fisty wrote:
We really don't make em like we used to. Good on you for saving it.


The 'don't make them like we used to' is a phrase that's bandied around a lot, but in this case it really is true. Of course, machines of the same sort of quality are still made but they tend to be big, advanced and mind-bendingly expensive. Old iron like this deserves a bit of saving I think.


So, not so much an update but additional information.

The cabinet - as well as holding the bulk of the machine up off the floor, it contains the motor and an intermediate shaft. This shaft takes the drive from the motor via a rivetted vee belt on a choice of 3 pulley ratios, and the output side has 3 more pulley ratios but this side uses a flat belt that goes up to the headstock.

https://i.imgur.com/aT4Kft5.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/sqGDg10.jpg

The bunch of linkages are for keeping the belts tensioned using the weight of the motor. Everything in here moves nicely, the intermediate shaft bearings feel very good indeed.

This pulley combination gives 9 gear ratios to choose from:

https://i.imgur.com/Z1fjMjb.jpg

Of course, those speeds are based on using the original motor. As the motor has been replaced I'm not sure if the speeds are still relevant. It may become a moot point anyway as a reversable variable speed drive is possibly on the cards in the future but the fixed ratios will still be useful for making the most of the motor torque.

This leads to a couple of probable modifications I intend to make. While I like the machine as it is, some things would make it that bit easier to use. Initially, a tachometer for the spindle and digital readouts for the cross slide and tailstock.... Watch this space for those.

Harking back to the quality of build of this machine, it was obviously built to be serviced with the minimum of fuss. There is almost nothing on it that is difficult to get at/out with nothing more than standard tools (or at least, tools that would have been standard at the time). For example, all of the pivot shafts on the motor mount/belt tensioner are retained with (imperial) allen head grub screws, the handles on the slide are held on with taper pins, not sweated onto a spline making them almost impossible to remove - there is much to be said for traditional manufacturing techniques.

I should get some more playtime tomorrow, so hopefully more of an update then.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 02:39 - 13 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

pdg wrote:
The cabinet - as well as holding the bulk of the machine up off the floor, it contains the motor and an intermediate shaft. This shaft takes the drive from the motor via a rivetted vee belt on a choice of 3 pulley ratios, and the output side has 3 more pulley ratios but this side uses a flat belt that goes up to the headstock.


Crowned belt.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 02:40 - 13 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fisty wrote:
We really don't make em like we used to. Good on you for saving it.


I didn't want to throw it away as it was so well made just unfortunately had nowhere to put it which is why it was given to pdg. Seemed like he would take care of it.
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pdg
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PostPosted: 03:13 - 13 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:

I didn't want to throw it away as it was so well made just unfortunately had nowhere to put it which is why it was given to pdg. Seemed like he would take care of it.


With any luck, it didn't come across as disparaging when I said it was in a corner of your garden - things happen, situations change and sometimes stuff has to go wherever it can at the time.

Hopefully, the way I treat it won't make you regret passing the (very much appreciated) stewardship of it to me Thumbs Up
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 06:13 - 13 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

pdg wrote:
With any luck, it didn't come across as disparaging when I said it was in a corner of your garden - things happen, situations change and sometimes stuff has to go wherever it can at the time


Not disparaging at all. No more workshop but didn't want to throw it away, things happen the world changes.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 07:25 - 13 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you got a flat belt for it? If you have to buy one, I have a belt-lacing tool. Don't have any actual laces but they are cheap to buy. You get the one that suits your belt thickness.
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331X2
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PostPosted: 07:53 - 13 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuck me Pete, is there anything you haven't got?!

Watching this with interest, comes from the same era and class as my lathe. I've got a couple of 1.5KW single phase VFD's, if you motor is or can be wired in delta give me a shout Thumbs Up
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lozzypop1
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PostPosted: 11:12 - 13 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
pdg wrote:
With any luck, it didn't come across as disparaging when I said it was in a corner of your garden - things happen, situations change and sometimes stuff has to go wherever it can at the time


Not disparaging at all. No more workshop but didn't want to throw it away, things happen the world changes.


And it wasn't allowed to live in my kitchen. Mr. Green
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pdg
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PostPosted: 01:42 - 14 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
Have you got a flat belt for it? If you have to buy one, I have a belt-lacing tool. Don't have any actual laces but they are cheap to buy. You get the one that suits your belt thickness.


I don't currently have a belt, no. I'm undecided whether to go with a leather belt or a rubber one. Whichever type will need to be joined as it passes through the bed twice... A leather one would obviously require stitching, but I don't know whether I would do metal stitches or not yet... If that is the route I take, I will be in touch Thumbs Up

Lee Wright wrote:
I've got a couple of 1.5KW single phase VFD's, if you motor is or can be wired in delta give me a shout


Are they 1ph in, 3ph out? (I assume they must be if the motor requires to be delta wired...) If that is indeed the case, then they won't work with the motor I currently have - data plate for reference:

https://i.imgur.com/evQfNhL.jpg

And it is wired thusly:

https://i.imgur.com/N0uehxO.jpg

I definitely (think) I want variable speed and the presence of a capacitor makes me think that may not be viable with the current unit - what would you be after for one of the VFDs if a suitable motor made itself available to me?



I did get a little while to have a bit of playtime, so to continue with the electrical theme for a minute...

Some of you may have noticed that there is a worklight fitted. This apparently uses a 12V bulb so it requires a transformer to operate from the (originally) 3ph mains. The transformer has seen better days:

https://i.imgur.com/uA7eDWZ.jpg

I didn't get a picture, but the casing is in pretty good condition (on the outside), and the lamp unit itself isn't bad either - with a lick of paint and a new transformer put in the original box it'll work nicely and look pretty 'period'. (Pics of lamp later - I forgot, then when I remembered the camera battery ran out.)

That wasn't the extent of my playing - I thought I'd have a bit more of a look at the ways... A quick wipe off with an oily rag (honest guv Wink ) and now:

https://i.imgur.com/dZlbSiH.jpg

I consider that to be improved. As I was getting carried away it seemed a good idea to see how the slide would slide if it was allowed to be slidey, obviously rust makes not a good bearing so that needed a little wipe off too:

https://i.imgur.com/B4jpyXS.jpg

Wherever I choose to sit the slide on the ways there is not a hint of rock or misalignment, putting a drop of oil on the ways and then lowering the slide into place results in the slide 'floating' on the oil until it oozes out of the ends, at which point I can push it along the bed with light fingertip pressure from end to end - seems any wear is negligable which shouldn't really be a surprise given the slide isn't a powered carriage.

There are a few dents and dings in the ways, but I could only feel a slight burr on one of them, which got dressed off with a stone without any problems.

Oh, I also finished stripping the remainder of the slides - but flat battery........

More later I'm sure
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331X2
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PostPosted: 06:51 - 14 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Downer, someone has single phased it! Are you not looking to get the gearbox working? Might be the easiest way to get a range of speeds without forking out although 3Ph motors crop up cheap where people have swapped them out.

Re price, we'll talk if you need one, I'd rather trade for something useful in all honesty, they're unlikely to get used in my case as my new mill needs a 3KW and when I upgrade my lathe I'll be looking for something pretty monstrous by home bodger standards!

Good work on the lathe, there looks to be very little wear, which is nice.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 06:55 - 14 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

pdg wrote:

There are a few dents and dings in the ways, but I could only feel a slight burr on one of them, which got dressed off with a stone without any problems.


On your machine it doesn't really matter, but stoning the ways is not considered as good practice as using a burr file. Take a normal flat file and rub it on a stone lightly to dull the very edges of the teeth. now you can use the file flat on the ways to take off any high spots and it won't touch the ways at all.
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 11:38 - 14 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

lozzypop1 wrote:

And it wasn't allowed to live in my kitchen. Mr. Green



Times have changed Laughing
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pdg
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PostPosted: 00:15 - 15 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:

On your machine it doesn't really matter, but stoning the ways is not considered as good practice as using a burr file. Take a normal flat file and rub it on a stone lightly to dull the very edges of the teeth. now you can use the file flat on the ways to take off any high spots and it won't touch the ways at all.


I think I used the wrong term - it was more of a 'bruise' than a burr... It looks like the chuck (or a heavy piece of work) was dropped onto the front way which is an inverted v, which peened a small section down but meant the metal only had one place to go - out the back as a lump. I'm not sure a burr file would have shifted it as due the new higher density I would imagine the lump was harder than the original surface. It's not like I used a 'normal' fast cutting artificial stone all along the way either, I was very selective.

Anyway, I'm currently pretty happy with the finish - although there may be a future case made for flaking...

Now, the bed itself. It's a bit of a pain to clean out as it's a hollow casting with blind ends, slotted top and bottom. I've taken 3 good sized handfulls of old swarf and dirt out already and there is plenty more in there still. Even when I get that out it'll be a challenge to use any mechanical cleaning methods due to lack of access. So that means finding an alternative process.

I mentioned the possibility of experimenting with electrolysis, and I've also said the chuck was in a pretty bad way with rust deposits so I thought I might as well give the chuck a go - the first cutting job when the lathe works is going to be refacing the chuck anyway so if it didn't work out it's no loss. This picture doesn't really express it well enough, but it's what I have...

https://i.imgur.com/rFP05hP.jpg

That is like a scale, very hard and very stuck. Having not used electrolytic action for this purpose before, I started small...

https://i.imgur.com/qer7b9V.jpg

Yummy!

Due to the size of container there is very little sacrificial electrode submerged (although what is there is in a reasonable place) so the current flow was lower than I would have liked to have seen for effectiveness. There was also time working against it working 'properly' (I only gave it about 3 hours or so when at least a day or two would be better).

Ok, enough excuses - on with the show.

https://i.imgur.com/UEJRj1g.jpg

I'll admit, I cheated there... It did not come out of solution looking like that. It came out looking only very slightly better than it went in. There was a massive difference though - whereas before the rust/scale simply refused to budge with anything less than a sharp coarse file (the scratches can be seen in that picture), afterwards about half of it slid off while I was rinsing it with a hose and yet more fell away using an old toothbrush. The remainder was just a case of a gentle rub with a bit of plain scotchbrite.

As proof of concept (to myself) I declare it a resounding success. I'm now willing to put a bit more effort into the electrolysis vessel and power supply to see how effective I can really make it. If I can make the internal surfaces of the bed ready to be sprayed after treatment and rinsing then I will be very happy.
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PostPosted: 00:24 - 15 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

pdg wrote:
post



Looking good man, that electrolysis malarkey seems to have helped a treat Thumbs Up
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 00:38 - 15 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Interesting. I do have a lathe in the garage that needs work . A lot less work than that one (suspect someone who knew what they were doing could sort it out in a few hours with a new motor). Main thing is sorting out a motor that will work on a domestic power supply.

All the best

Keith
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pdg
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PostPosted: 01:04 - 15 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee Wright wrote:
Downer, someone has single phased it! Are you not looking to get the gearbox working? Might be the easiest way to get a range of speeds without forking out


In a way, it's quite handy to be single phase - it means when I get to that stage I can just plug it in - well, I can if the motor works, I haven't actually tested it yet. Because of the design of the transmission I don't think that the difference in smoothness will translate to the work.

As for the gearbox, it doesn't have one... There are a total of 9 different speeds available by moving the 2 belts across the pulleys.

I don't think I'll be hindered much without continuously variable speed, it would just be nice to have at some point.

Kickstart wrote:
Main thing is sorting out a motor that will work on a domestic power supply.


There are a few ways of running a 3ph motor (if that's what you have) on a normal domestic single phase supply, from simply dropping a leg and working in a start cap, through a variable frequency drive, up to making a rotary phase converter. Some of it depends on what size the motor is of course - you wouldn't have much luck plugging a 10hp into a 13A socket...
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 01:19 - 15 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

pdg wrote:


I think I used the wrong term - it was more of a 'bruise' than a burr... It looks like the chuck (or a heavy piece of work) was dropped onto the front way which is an inverted v, which peened a small section down but meant the metal only had one place to go - out the back as a lump. I'm not sure a burr file would have shifted it as due the new higher density I would imagine the lump was harder than the original surface. It's not like I used a 'normal' fast cutting artificial stone all along the way either, I was very selective.

Anyway, I'm currently pretty happy with the finish - although there may be a future case made for flaking...


The density won't have changed nor the hardness. It's common for dropped chucks to raise a burr as you say it has only way to go. Getting rid of the burr is imprtant, by stoning, filing or grinding. If there's a burr the saddle will rock and you get chatter. There's no need for flaking except to make it look pretty and it's the underside of the sadle that should be flaked, not the way. If you do want to scrape or flake any part of it I have the tools and some experience. Flaking is easy to pick up, scraping not so much so.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 09:23 - 15 Nov 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris-red wrote:
Times have changed Laughing


They have, apparently I need to grow up as well! Shocked
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The last post was made 9 years, 136 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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