Soldiers to get life in jail for refusing to act as occupier

[zaknafien]

GERRI PEEV / The Scotsman | May 19 2006

SOLDIERS who object to taking part in a military occupation of a foreign country will face life in prison under measures due to be rubber-stamped in the House of Commons on Monday.

The little-noticed Armed Forces Bill will have its third reading in the Commons on Monday and left-leaning MPs are alarmed that it will legitimise pre-emptive military strikes.

It will change the definition of desertion to include soldiers who go absent without leave and intend to refuse to take part in a "military occupation of a foreign country or territory".

Under the current Army Act, desertion is defined as "going absent intending not to come back, going absent to avoid any service overseas, or going absent to avoid service when before an enemy".

Campaigners have seized on the inclusion of "military occupation" as evidence that ministers are trying to scare soldiers from objecting to future preemptive strikes - a charge denied by the Ministry of Defence.

The move comes as tensions escalate with Iran and follows a reported rise in soldiers absconding from the British Army since the invasion of Iraq.

Ben Griffin, a former SAS soldier who quit the army without facing punishment after being "appalled" at what was happening in Iraq, accused the government of changing the law ahead of any possible action in Iran.

"The government are kicking themselves in the teeth," he said. "Currently the British Army is a volunteer force, but using this sort of stick to beat soldiers into doing what they are told is turning it into a conscript army."

Mr Griffin, 28, from London, said that this would hamper morale and ultimately the effectiveness of the military.

Anti-war campaigners claim the change means it would expressly legitimise occupation and force soldiers to contravene the Nuremberg Principles, limiting their right to becoming conscientious objectors.

The Ministry of Defence has denied these charges and said that in fact the legislation introduces a new, lesser sentence of two years' imprisonment.

John McDonnell, the left-wing Labour MP, has tabled amendments to slash the maximum sentence for any desertion from life imprisonment to two years. He is also urging other MPs to throw out the new definition of desertion.

Angus MacNeil, the SNP MP who also spoke at the meeting, urged as many MPs as possible to debate the bill on Monday.

"There are a number of alarming measures in this bill that have appeared with little debate that need further scrutiny," he said.

The Ministry of Defence denied that the scope and definition was new or tougher than the existing law.

"Under current legislation the maximum penalty for all offences of desertion is life imprisonment. In most cases we have reduced this in the Armed Forces Bill to two years," a spokeswoman said.

However, where an offender deserted to avoid active service, such as the Iraq war, the maximum penalty would be applied, she said.
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02 Firestorm.

[Itchy]

phew I sure am glad some interviews started coming through I was this > < close to signing up ,

me thinks that there will be an even greater recruitment crisis coming up if this comes in , as there will defo be somebody who deserts and doesn't know about it gets life in prison which makes people not want to join even more.

unfortunately this may well be a ruse to get conscription back on the books,
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.

[colin1]

its not a ruse to get conscription back on the books

however it is is a way of compelling soldiers to obey orders regardless of whether the order is lawful

it used to be that someone in the armed forces only had to obey a lawful order

technically a pre-emptive strike invading someone elses country is an act of aggresion and isnt legal. If I believed we were under threat from Iraq, I would have wanted soldiers to obey orders to invade, but I didnt believe it.

After WWII the germans said 'orders are orders' or 'befehl ist befehl'. You obey orders without question when you are a soldier so you are not responsible.

However the Nuremburg trials said that individual soldiers were responsible for crimes they were ordered to do.
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[Itchy]

I think I just read something that was a relief , in that this can't apply to conscripts , in that you can object to be conscripted and hence this rule not apply to you.
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.

[biggerjohn]

Why would you become a solder if you where going to refuse to do the job you applied for where trained for and get paid for. No one goes into the army without knowing the score.

[Itchy]

its not so simple , it was like fareheit 911 where people with no other choice joined up simply since there was no other choice but to join up as there were no jobs elsewhere.


and that its not always so straight cut , soldiers today are ruled by politik almost as much as COs , and hence soldiers issued illegal orders canbe hauled up before a civvie court , refusing to act upon such orders can result in a court marshall = rock vs hard place,

lets say if you were asked to flatten a town you know was full of civvies would you do it?.

You do it = you are a mass murderer when you get back to the UK you'll be hauled before a civvie court

you don't do it = you are served a court marshall and imprisoned for life.
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.

[kawakid]

Why would anyone want to join the army, it can't be fun.

If I have a bad day, worse that can happen is I get sacked.

If they have a bad day, they're shot dead or doing life for not wanting to get shot.

Poor gits.
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