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Ducati Vs Japanese Motorcycles

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Wave2k
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Ducati Vs Japanese Motorcycles Reply with quote

Nipped from another forum and interesting read if not a /little/ biased Razz.


It is very difficult to compare a Ducati with a Japanese motorcycle: they are two different breeds, two parallel universes.

This might seem like a strong statement if it wasn’t backed up by the passionate devotion of countless Ducati fans from all over the world.

Let’s start from the beginning: Ducatis are born from a no-compromise design principle: they have always been developed directly from victory on the race-track.
Japanese motorcycles on the other hand, are created with the functional necessities of everyday biking in mind; from there they are transformed into race bikes.
These respective design philosophies are completely antithetical.

Now that we’ve introduced things, let’s take a closer look at those incredible features that make Ducatis unique.

First of all the heart of any bike, the engine. It is the engine that brings a motorcycle to life and also defines its character.
We don’t have to view the motorcycle as a rational sum of cold, lifeless mechanical parts: who can deny the existence of a specific character to their bike?
The heart of a Ducati is always a longitudinal L-twin cylinder, always a four stroke and, note carefully, always with Ducati’s trademark and track-proven Desmodromic timing.

What other motorcycle manufacturer can boast such loyalty to technical standardization, strictly derived from competition racing?

These unique factors could already be enough to make a drastic and definitive distinction between the red bikes of Borgo Panigale and any of those manufactured in the land of the rising sun.

But what do they mean in practice?

What differences can the “ordinary” (if a motorcycle rider can be defined as such) user perceive? Or do all Ducatisti have to be engineers in order to appreciate these subtleties?

The answer is very simple: it is the character, or rather the torque supplied and the power delivered that make the fundamental difference.

Thanks to its design, its desmodromic valve control that allows the finest valve timing with less power waste, and its well-tested and extremely sharp electronic fuel injection, the unique Ducati “Pompone” (Big pump) has a unique character throughout the rev range.

Torque and Power are two physical dimensions that represent the performance of an engine; they are expressed in Nm and KW, respectively, and their levels at different engine revs are shown as typical characteristic curves on graphs.

The driving torque is the capacity of the engine to pull, to accelerate the bike and its rider by projecting them inside the following curve: in practice, it is the measurement of how much the rear wheel manages to push on the road.

Japanese motorcycles also have good torque values with maximum values comparable even to our own, BUT what counts is the trend of the torque curve, not only its absolute value.

Indeed the torque available at low RPM is much, much more precious: and this is the precise advantage of our generous engines, the substantial torque at all levels.
In this way you get a really satisfying and successful ride, as our countless victories in the Superbike championships show.
How can someone handle and get the most out of an engine that gives maximum torque at 8000 RPM?
How big is the gulf that separates it from a Ducati twin cylinder that, at just 3500 RPM, is already delivering 85% of its maximum torque?

So far we have considered differences that could be linked to any two and four cylinder engine. In fact, a few years ago the Japanese began to use longitudinal V-twin cylinders, strangely enough a 90° V: practically copies of our engine…a design that is alien to their engine tradition and therefore, obviously imported.

Nonetheless, differences remain, even as far as those engines are concerned.
To understand them we have to forget the classic characteristic curves and think instead of something that isn’t represented by those charts, that happens when we open the throttle: the reaction of the bike to this movement - peculiar to motorcycles - is identified as power range.

It isn’t quite correct to think of torque when you feel, at the opening of the throttle, a “a big pull” and the bike tears you away from the handlebars.
In reality, torque is not so easily perceptible.

If we consider any engine, travelling at a constant pace (for example 90 kmph at 4000 RPM and in fourth gear) there is no notable “pull” but the torque is nonetheless delivered sure enough (see the torque curve…).

Another example: why, with the engine running at full speed, do we still feel the famous “pull”, even after the peak of the curve, when torque is falling?

Power delivery is not usually represented in charts but it qualitatively summarizes various technical aspects of the engine (torque trend during changes in load, degree of irregularity, etc) to describe the engine reaction.
Above all it is highly perceptible.

So, as far as power delivery is concerned, Ducati engines are at their peak in all capacities: from 600 to 1000cc we have a robust answer to every opening of the throttle.

What happens at the opening of the throttle, independent of the RPM, the bike speed or the gear selected, is truly the spirit of the engine.
It is obvious that this same generosity is the winning feature of the bikes that have dominated the world Superbike championships for more than 10 years… so there is no trick and no deception: our bikes are all sincerity and energy!


Another indisputable strong point in favor of the “Pompone” is the music it makes.

That’s right, music, not noise.
Ducatis don’t make noise but they create harmonious music: the low drone emitted by the exhaust joyfully combines with the tinkling of the timing system and the roar of the intake.
In sports models, this symphony is completed by the characteristic sound of the dry clutch, a real connoisseur’s piece…

And what about the engine’s song?
That’s what makes everybody on the side of the street turn round, that’s what impressively announces our arrival…let’s hear it in the words of a Ducatista: “…have you ever noticed how the sound of the exhaust evolves throughout the power curve?
When I open up the throttle the engine roars.
The filter case acts as a speaker, amplifying the low sound of a twin cylinder thirsty for fuel.
The intake port is finally free from limiting elements and the suction is heard in a muffled rumble, perhaps even more pleasant than the exhaust sound.
The engine revs up, between 5000 and 5500 the desmodromic roar is really hoarse and brutal.
The wicked sound that emanates during the intake stroke is mainly heard by those in front of us as the two intake horns face forwards.
More than once I have seen people suddenly turn round, taken aback by the aggression of the engine …”

Even stops at traffic lights become opportunities to savor the harmony of the Ducati’s engine:
"…the tinkling of that moving part (the dry clutch) is music to my ears, and is obtained, contrary to what one might think, without the throttle, when the engine is running at its slowest and the feels as if it could switch off at any minute… in these moments, when the idling teeters, the clutch resounds as forcefully as ever and the wait at the traffic light isn’t all that long and boring."
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quacker_boy
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PostPosted: 19:14 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes Only a LITTLE biased Wave? It hardly, if at all, mentions the strong points of IL4's.

It's all that personal taste crap again, i'm a multicultural kinda guy when it comes to this.

Example: An 05 Duke 749R and an 05 CBR 600RR with modifcations such as uprated forks, rear shock, braided hoses, discs, 'zorst etc are sat in front of me, i wouldn't for the LIFE of me be able to choose between the toy.

Either way, what's it matter, both bikes are fast as f**k and handle and corner MILES better than bikes 5 years ago.

Just my two pence.
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Wave2k
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PostPosted: 19:24 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

quacker_boy wrote:
Rolling Eyes Only a LITTLE biased Wave? It hardly, if at all, mentions the strong points of IL4's.

It's all that personal taste crap again, i'm a multicultural kinda guy when it comes to this.

Example: An 05 Duke 749R and an 05 CBR 600RR with modifcations such as uprated forks, rear shock, braided hoses, discs, 'zorst etc are sat in front of me, i wouldn't for the LIFE of me be able to choose between the toy.

Either way, what's it matter, both bikes are fast as f**k and handle and corner MILES better than bikes 5 years ago.

Just my two pence.


your comparing the wrong type of bike

an 05 749 Bip and and 05 CBR6RR

as the R has all round Ohlins and a tuned engine with a shorter stroke.

even the S model has a slightly tuned engine and Showa all round.
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syl
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PostPosted: 19:45 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Re: Ducati Vs Japanese Motorcycles Reply with quote

wave2k wrote:
Indeed the torque available at low RPM is much, much more precious: and this is the precise advantage of our generous engines, the substantial torque at all levels.
In this way you get a really satisfying and successful ride, as our countless victories in the Superbike championships show.
How can someone handle and get the most out of an engine that gives maximum torque at 8000 RPM?
How big is the gulf that separates it from a Ducati twin cylinder that, at just 3500 RPM, is already delivering 85% of its maximum torque?


That's a bit like saying diesel engines are better than petrol.

I still like Ducatis though.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 19:57 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Re: Ducati Vs Japanese Motorcycles Reply with quote

wave2k wrote:
The heart of a Ducati is always a longitudinal L-twin cylinder, always a four stroke and, note carefully, always with Ducati’s trademark and track-proven Desmodromic timing.


Written by someone with a very short and selective memory. Plenty of non L twin Ducatis (they only came along in the mid 70s) including singles, parallel twins and V4s, and quite a few with non desmo valve gear.

All the best

Keith
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 20:07 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

A load of wank.
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Wave2k
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PostPosted: 20:09 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

haha well its a good read if own a ducati.
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G
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PostPosted: 20:10 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
A load of wank.

I was just writing a long reply section by section, but that's summed it up a lot more eloquently!
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NC30UK
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PostPosted: 20:13 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ducati's are better than their equivilant jap bike, they also cost twice as much!

They are all just made by R&D teams and engineers, there is jap guys working for ducati, and italians working for jap companies. They found something that works well and has a good life span, but they are ultimatly good for only 1 thing, racing.

Jap bikes are cheaper, great quality, reliable, user friendly and constantly being improved, not much more you can ask for.
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G
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PostPosted: 20:16 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

NC30UK wrote:
Ducati's are better than their equivilant jap bike, they also cost twice as much!

Depends what you mean by 'equivilant' really, If you're going by CC, then the Japs have it really, until you get up to the Duke models with silly suspension. For fun I would take a Jap 4 anyday, even if I might be very slightly faster on a twin with a similar peak power output.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:21 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
For fun I would take a Jap 4 anyday, even if I might be very slightly faster on a twin with a similar peak power output.


Even if the 4 was a GT550? You can build a 4 with a boring power delivery just as easily as a twin (probably more easily to be honest).

All the best

Keith
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G
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PostPosted: 20:25 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd take a GT550 over a Ducati twin with the same peak power Smile.

I quite agree on the power delivery front, while I'm not a fan of SVs, I'm also not a fan of Hornets etc, thanks to their power delivery.

And thus I don't mind the TRX850, which despite being a twin, needs a lot more revving than many to keep going.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:27 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
I'd take a GT550 over a Ducati twin with the same peak power Smile.


So you would take the one with the mind numbingly boring and flat power delivery just to avoid a twin Wink ?

All the best

Keith
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G
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PostPosted: 20:32 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, first I'd worry about what ducati I was getting with the peak power of a GT550. I can't see it having a much more lively power delivery, really.

Then there's tart value, people might recognise me riding a ducati! The shame! Wink

I have actually said in the past that I quite liked the idea of the 748 for a road bike if it wasn't for me licence - got useable go for being lazy, but still a bit revvy.
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wristjob
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PostPosted: 20:40 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is a very simple reason why they keep on with the v twin with desmo valve gear.
thats what the factory is tooled up for.
if they had to produce an il4 aswell production costs would go through the roof due to the low volumes.
the japs however can swap and change as market forces demand.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:59 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Well, first I'd worry about what ducati I was getting with the peak power of a GT550. I can't see it having a much more lively power delivery, really.


Realistically close to that of a 600 Monster. Far nicer power delivery.

G wrote:
Then there's tart value, people might recognise me riding a ducati! The shame! Wink


And you would rather ride the GT550? About as much street cred as being seen with wool and claggy bits stuck in your flies.

G wrote:
I have actually said in the past that I quite liked the idea of the 748 for a road bike if it wasn't for me licence - got useable go for being lazy, but still a bit revvy.


Quite so. Some revvyness is great, same for nice kicks in the power delivery. But too high a tune and you land up with an asthmatic power delivery in the point in the rev range you are at most of the time, unless you sit in a low gear at which point the throttle becomes hyper sensitive.

All the best

Keith
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 21:03 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

wave2k wrote:
haha well its a good read if own a ducati.


No it's good if you buy into the Ducati lifestyle.

80's bikes. Unreliable pieces of old fashioned shite.

89 onwards. More modern but unreliable all the way upto the 97-98 model year.

916,900/750/600 monster. Built when ducati had no money so often come with strange mixture of parts. Also known as the parts bin specials.

First of the yellow 600 monsters. Resprayed red bikes.

First of the monster darks. Resprayed red bikes.

Latest bikes overpriced
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Silver
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PostPosted: 21:13 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Re: Ducati Vs Japanese Motorcycles Reply with quote

wave2k wrote:
Various Ducati propaganda...


Who the hell wrote that, the chairman of the Ducati owner's club, sat with erect penis in hand? Confused

wave2k wrote:
Even stops at traffic lights become opportunities to savor the harmony of the Ducati’s engine:
"…the tinkling of that moving part (the dry clutch) is music to my ears, and is obtained, contrary to what one might think, without the throttle, when the engine is running at its slowest and the feels as if it could switch off at any minute… in these moments, when the idling teeters, the clutch resounds as forcefully as ever and the wait at the traffic light isn’t all that long and boring."


Laughing

Translation: It rattles like fuck, and everyone within earshot thinks something is about to fall off the bike.
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G
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PostPosted: 21:18 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Realistically close to that of a 600 Monster. Far nicer power delivery.

Haven't ridden either, but from what I've seen I'd probably prefer a more linear power delivery to one that drops off quite a lot for a while towards the redline, as I believe the monster does?

Quote:
And you would rather ride the GT550? About as much street cred as being seen with wool and claggy bits stuck in your flies.

That's the thing, I don't value street cred gained from fourteen year old boys Smile. While a gt550 suggests a courier - someone that probably knows how to ride a bike Very Happy.


When riding for fun I'm happy to stay in a low gear and I like the hyper-sensitive throttle. Even when not going for it, I have been known to ride changing gears to always stay in the powerband - so if I do feel like it I can turn the throttle and get that kick.
(You could arque this is similar to low down power on a blander engine, but I'd argue that you don't really get the same 'kick' as when you are using high revs Smile ).
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Hotdog
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PostPosted: 21:27 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

They might be overpriced, unreliable junk that only wins races when the rules (power and weight) are grossly in their favour.....

But..they are still much better than Harleys.....

Smile

Hotdog.
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Bendy
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PostPosted: 21:54 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Re: Ducati Vs Japanese Motorcycles Reply with quote

wave2k wrote:
We don’t have to view the motorcycle as a rational sum of cold, lifeless mechanical parts: who can deny the existence of a specific character to their bike?


Character.

Nothing straight off the production line has 'character'.

Character has to be earned.
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Hotdog
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PostPosted: 21:56 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Re: Ducati Vs Japanese Motorcycles Reply with quote

Bendy wrote:


Character.

Nothing straight off the production line has 'character'.

Character has to be earned.


You can't argue with an authentic Ducati (tm) Press Release....

Hotdog.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 22:06 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Haven't ridden either, but from what I've seen I'd probably prefer a more linear power delivery to one that drops off quite a lot for a while towards the redline, as I believe the monster does?


What rev counter Wink . Both tail off, just the monster has a more interesting bit before that

G wrote:
That's the thing, I don't value street cred gained from fourteen year old boys Smile. While a gt550 suggests a courier - someone that probably knows how to ride a bike Very Happy.


Ah, so might be a dangerous wreck, kept going on bits the breakers threw out as too bad to sell.

What I tend to like is the change in the power delivery. Can be fun with a 2 stroke just changing up after the power band has kicked in to get it again in the next gear. Major reason why I am not keen on Charlottes Thunderbird (which she loves).

All the best

Keith
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Klause
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PostPosted: 22:41 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Ducati's, I like my monster, but that story above is gay.

Sounds awesome, wheelies easy and handles godlike and is good to commute on is why I like my monster. The monster is actually a very simple but clever bike. The 4 valver bikes are very, very race minded.

Most inline 4 jap bikes make me yawn, but a few tickle my fancy. Most of my friends bikes I have ridden and got rid of their chicken strips for them, they felt really light and fluffly in the corners whereas the monster digs into the ground and gives lots of grip, just something I like.

Another thing the japs do with V twins is make the bike huge!!! Argh, the whole point of the vtwin layout is to have a narrow chassis noobs!
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G
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PostPosted: 22:41 - 05 Jun 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:

Ah, so might be a dangerous wreck, kept going on bits the breakers threw out as too bad to sell.

Also find that look is good for keeping the shiney ducati riders from getting to close.

(And said riders of shiney Ducatis get annoyed when the old (gpz)550 is going around the roundabout quciker than them Wink .)
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