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headlamp
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Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 17:03 - 06 Apr 2005    Post subject: Response From The Mayor Reply with quote
I wrote the following letter to the Mayor (Ken Livingstone)

Quote:


Dear Mayor,

Quoting from TFL's website

"TfL is looking at all aspects of motorcycle use in London. The Mayor’s Transport Strategy recognises that motorcycles take up little space and are relatively low cost, but also notes the high number of collisions and injuries involving motorcycles and riders."

And from the Congestion Charge website: -

"Congestion charging is a way of ensuring that those using valuable and congested road space make a financial contribution.

It encourages the use of other modes of transport and is also intended to ensure that, for those who have to use the roads, journey times are quicker and more reliable."

Given that motorbikes take up little space, MAKE journey times quicker and more reliable, are environemntally efficient and do not cotribute to congestion, why are you and TfL proposing to charge for bikes?

I read that it was to do with accident rates but figures quoted show that despite an increase in usage, accidents have fallen - if you were to analyse your figure in greater depth you I reckon would find that most of these accidents would be with riders who have ridden for three years or less - statistically the period when most bikers have accidents. As these riders become more experienced then the rate of accidents will fall - I'm sure you could use the vast army of statisticans at your disposal to correlate this. It might be that you have already done the maths - and if bikes are asked to pay then 'show' that the charge has reduced accidents rates.

The cynic in me thinks that because of the success of the Congestion Charge - you are facing a shortfall in revenues & are looking to raise income through other modes of transport. I fail to see how you can justify charging motorcyclists - particularly those who have heeded the advice on your website and sought 'other modes of transport' to make London streets less congested and environmentally cleaner. Surely you should be paying bikers £5 a day for switching to this mode of tranport, and reducing congestion on the roads, buses, tubes and trains.

Yours sincerely


I got this response earlier

Quote:


Our Ref: TfL 42323
Dear Mr Headlamp
Thank you for your e-mail to the Mayor concerning motorbikes and the congestion charge. I have been asked to reply on his behalf.
I would like to confirm that both motorcycles and scooters are exempt from the congestion charge because they do not cause congestion. Mr Livingstone also wishes to make it crystal clear that he has absolutely no intention whatsoever of making scooters and motorcycles pay the congestion charge. Indeed, despite the increase in numbers of motorbikes and scooters in the zone, there continues to be a decline in the number of accidents involving
powered two-wheelers since the introduction of the scheme.
Yours sincerely
Jasmine Howard
Central Customer Services


I am inclined to believe this came from him as Customer Services people don't usually say 'crystal clear' & 'absolutely no intention whatsoever' suggests that whoever said this is irritated by the source of information. I have also sent a copy of the response to Ross Lydall, the correspondent who wrote the piece in the first place - no reply from him as yet. Anyway it looks like there is never going to be charges for scooters or motorbikes - if he ever changes his mind this can be used as ammunition.
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Gracie Jones
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 17:05 - 06 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Headlamp,

Good shit. Well done for writing him.

Luke
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Dom
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PostPosted: 17:19 - 06 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
There was a similarly strongly worded clarification in MCN a little while ago. Whether there ever was any truth to the rumour or they were testing the waters I guess we won't know, but they certainly realised that this would cause more negative publicity than they were willing to deal with. Laughing
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instigator
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PostPosted: 17:20 - 06 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Good stuff. Glad to hear it (not that I live anywhere near london)
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Gazdaman
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Joined: 12 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 17:33 - 06 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's worth it just to see a letter addressed to Mr. Headlamp, unless you edited that in to hide your name.

Good on ya for writing to them, and it's good to know we're safe-ish for a while.

Gaz
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headlamp
World Chat Champion



Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: 17:39 - 06 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gazdaman wrote:
It's worth it just to see a letter addressed to Mr. Headlamp, unless you edited that in to hide your name.

Good on ya for writing to them, and it's good to know we're safe-ish for a while.

Gaz


Laughing Laughing Wink Laughing Laughing Actually it's Mr. Lamp, Head's my first name!
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 18:11 - 06 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dom wrote:
but they certainly realised that this would cause more negative publicity than they were willing to deal with. Laughing


That doesn't seem to bother them. They are already getting it in the neck for the 60% increase in the fee for entering central London, implemented despite a total lack of support for such a measure.

All the best

Keith
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Dom
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PostPosted: 18:59 - 06 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Dom wrote:
but they certainly realised that this would cause more negative publicity than they were willing to deal with. Laughing


That doesn't seem to bother them. They are already getting it in the neck for the 60% increase in the fee for entering central London, implemented despite a total lack of support for such a measure.

All the best

Keith


I guess they just look for a balance between revenue and pissing people off. Whilst charging cars a ridiculous amount is going to annoy people, there doesn't seem to have really been much of an uproar about it, at least nothing they can't ignore. If they introduced the charge for bikes I would expect some pretty big protests at the least.

That said, I still wouldn't trust it never to happen.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 19:38 - 06 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

There is certainly opposition to the charge for cars:-

https://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/17687642?source=Evening%20Standard

If that is true it will make any revolt by the small number of riders look like a McDonalds party.

If the rumours are true that KL does not intend to stand for the next election for mayor then he really does not have to care about anoying people at all.

All the best

Keith
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Dom
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PostPosted: 22:15 - 06 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Hi

There is certainly opposition to the charge for cars:-

https://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/17687642?source=Evening%20Standard

If that is true it will make any revolt by the small number of riders look like a McDonalds party.

If the rumours are true that KL does not intend to stand for the next election for mayor then he really does not have to care about anoying people at all.

All the best

Keith


Oh I wasn't disputing the opposition to it at all, I just don't see any real action's as a result. A letter's fine but as you say, Livingstone genuinely doesn't seem to give a damn, which is why I would say the only way to have any affect would be a more extreme method of protest.

In this case I don't think it matters how many people are opposed to the changes, it's how many people actively fight againt them. And not by writing letters. Smile
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 00:33 - 07 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Check who the letter is from.

Suspect a load of major companies moving out of the city will have rather more impact than a few thousand rider blocking the streets one day.

All the best

Keith
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map
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PostPosted: 09:49 - 07 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
headlamp wrote:
Quote:
...Mr Livingstone also wishes to make it crystal clear that he has absolutely no intention whatsoever of making scooters and motorcycles pay the congestion charge...

Now I may be being cynical but just because Mr. Livingstone has no intention etc. that doesn't mean TfL as an organisation or Ken's replacement will not introduce charges Rolling Eyes

Go on, convince me I might be wrong Wink
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headlamp
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 07 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Go on, convince me I might be wrong


Let me start by going on record that I am no fan of KL! Anyway, the note they passed to me acknowledges that motorbikes do not cause congestion and that accident rates are falling - the two reasons quoted in the article why it might be introduced. TfL 'reports' to the Mayor. If the Mayor says no congestion xcharges for bikes, then TfL will not pursue. With regards to his successors, who knows? - The increase to £8 is deeply unpopular, and potentially could lead to a Conservative Mayor (Steven Norris-who has vowed to scrap the Congestion Charge altogether). Any successor to Ken in the Labour Party is likely to be less left wing - Nicky Gavron, the Deputy Mayor is a possible candidate and she was 'uncomfortable' with the increase. They would need some pretty amazing excuse to introduce the charge for bikes. In fact I am going to write another letter to the Mayor shortly, acknowledging and thanking him for his response, telling him to 'encourage' bike use in London - with more motorcycle parking bays, allow bikes to use bus lanes, training courses etc....
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Dom
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Joined: 06 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 11:53 - 07 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:
Hi

Check who the letter is from.

Suspect a load of major companies moving out of the city will have rather more impact than a few thousand rider blocking the streets one day.

All the best

Keith


Well sure, it's a letter from a large number of important businesses - but to play devil's advocate, I reckon KL could read that and say "Pfft, move out of london? Like they'll ever do that."
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 13:03 - 07 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dom wrote:
Well sure, it's a letter from a large number of important businesses - but to play devil's advocate, I reckon KL could read that and say "Pfft, move out of london? Like they'll ever do that."


True, but some already do seem to be heading that way.

All the best

Keith
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 01:31 - 08 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Next stage against the charge:-

https://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/londonnews/articles/17732198?version=1

Quote:
C-charge protesters take coffin to City Hall
By Ross Lydall, Local Government Correspondent, Evening Standard
6 April 2005

Protesters are delivering a coffin to City Hall today to signify the "death" of small businesses caused by the congestion charge.

Campaigners opposing the zone's extension into west London are also presenting a 10,000-signature petition.

Ken Livingstone and his transport commissioner Bob Kiley are set to be grilled by the London Assembly over the charge - which will rise to £8 in July - and the proposed extension by 2007.

The Mayor claims that only 5,000 people a day have stopped driving into central London as a result of the charge. But businesses say the true figure is much higher and an increase in the levy will cause them more problems.

Angie Bray, Conservative congestion charge spokeswoman on the Assembly, accused the Mayor of behaving like a "tin-pot dictator" by ignoring opposition. She said 75 per cent of residents and 89 per cent of firms are opposed. "He is making a mockery of democracy."

Mr Livingstone will also face questions from the Liberal Democrats over the £1.6 million legal bill he ran up in a failed attempt to halt the partprivatisation of the Tube.


All the best

Keith
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 02:58 - 08 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Isn't the entire point of the congestion charge to reduce the numbers of vehicles entering the city? That should be the natural effect of charging people to do so imo. Hence, I'm not sure why the businesses are complaining that it's reducing the numbers of people coming in. It's simply doing what it's supposed to.

Personally, speaking from a wholly uninformed viewpoint, London has far too many big businesses and employment sources all jammed together in the middle. That means that everyone lives away from the centre and has to commute in and out every day, clogging up the inadequate transport links and systems.

It looks to me as though London is a victim of it's own success. The huge number of businesses investing and building in it mean that there's no space for people to live in the centre (though to be honest, who'd want to?), and too many people commuting, snarling up the road and rail networks and so losing them money as a result.

Spreading the business a little wider might not be such a bad idea?
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 09:07 - 08 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
mchaggis wrote:
Isn't the entire point of the congestion charge to reduce the numbers of vehicles entering the city?


It is, but instead it is reducing the numbers of people going there, which means large drops in trade for shops along with increases in costs

mchaggis wrote:
Personally, speaking from a wholly uninformed viewpoint, London has far too many big businesses and employment sources all jammed together in the middle.


Very true. But they do not seem to realise this. They blame car usage for the congestion when it is just a symptom of the overcrowding.

All the best

Keith
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EuropeanNC30R...
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PostPosted: 11:37 - 08 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
mchaggis wrote:
it mean that there's no space for people to live in the centre (though to be honest, who'd want to?)


Quite a lot looking at the house prices. You'd be suprised at the amount of people doing an 'anti-commute'. I work just outside the M25, yet more than half our workforce commute from inside London as they prefer it is a place to live.
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tgabber
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PostPosted: 23:21 - 08 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Mr Livingstone also wishes to make it crystal clear that he has absolutely no intention whatsoever of making scooters and motorcycles pay the congestion charge.


Excellent! Now if only he'd be as direct in sorting out the mess with motorbikes in bus lanes I'd be a happy Londoner. As it is the latest news that they are going to extend their 'trial' allowing bikes in only three bus lanes for another year is depressing. Just exactly what useful info can they get from such a trial anyway?
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headlamp
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PostPosted: 00:19 - 09 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
tgabber wrote:
Excellent! Now if only he'd be as direct in sorting out the mess with motorbikes in bus lanes I'd be a happy Londoner. As it is the latest news that they are going to extend their 'trial' allowing bikes in only three bus lanes for another year is depressing. Just exactly what useful info can they get from such a trial anyway?


Agreed! I read somewhere that it is to appease the cycling fraternity. There have been no major incidents - when I write my reply to the mayor's letter it is something I am going to mention.
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Major_Grooves
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PostPosted: 17:49 - 09 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
tgabber wrote:


Excellent! Now if only he'd be as direct in sorting out the mess with motorbikes in bus lanes I'd be a happy Londoner. As it is the latest news that they are going to extend their 'trial' allowing bikes in only three bus lanes for another year is depressing. Just exactly what useful info can they get from such a trial anyway?


You got a link to that info? I think maybe under the freedom of information act we could get all the data they have compiled from the trial so far and judge for ourself if it is safe or not. Wadaya think?

has this been posted before? looks quite useful: https://www.motorcycleparking.com/frames_index.htm (for Londoners mainly)
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headlamp
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PostPosted: 18:10 - 09 Apr 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote
Major_Grooves wrote:
You got a link to that info?


You'll be wanting this then Cool

H
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