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| Ade067 |
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Ade067
Scooby Slapper
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
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 Posted: 19:29 - 06 Sep 2004  Post subject: Super unleaded?? |
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I've just been out for a ride and pulled into a garage to top up the tank but the normal unleaded pump was out of order,rather than move to a different pump and have to wait as it was busy I filled up with super unleaded.
I've always had diesel cars or vans for about the last 10 years or so so I haven't taken much notice of petrol,whats the difference between regular unleaded and super unleaded?,I guess its a higher octane level but what exactly does that mean and what difference would it/does it make?...other than price obviously  |
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Scooby
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divuk83
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steve09
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tatters
Exxon Valdez
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: 22:10 - 06 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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shell optimax stops my VFR400 backfiring, appartley jap bikes are desgined to be run on unleaded petrol with a RON rating of 100 (octan number) which is the standard petrol in japan, but here we have unleaded with 95 RON and Super unleaded "optimax etc" with 98 RON
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Past:NRG50,AF1125(x2),NSR125RR,ZZR250,CX500,VFR400,KR1S,ZZR600(x2),CB400N,YZF1000(x2),KH125,Z200,FX400R,CBR954RR(x2)GPZ500S,GT550,VFR750F(x2),RD350N,XR650R,CBR600F,CB250,KDX250,YZF750R,CRM250,400EXC,KLR650,TTR600RE,DR350S,R100GSPD,RGV250,VMAX1200,DL650,KZ750 Present:G650XC,C12,CRF450X,1190ADV |
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tatters
Exxon Valdez
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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Posted: 22:13 - 06 Sep 2004  Post subject: |
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400greybike.co.uk
| Quote: | What's The Difference Between Petrol Types?
I'm afraid this requires a bit of understand of what goes on inside your engine, but I'll try to keep it simple.
Basically, the difference between the different types of petrol you can buy at the pump is their additive package, and their octane rating. Fuel has chemicals added to it to clean the engine, increase octane rating, prevent carb icing, and so forth. The nature and quality of these additives depends on the fuel you buy. Regarding octane rating, to be absolutely specific about what this means would require another article in its own right, so we shall simply consider a fuel octane rating to be a measure of its resistance to "knock".
What's "Knock"?
"Knock" and its relative, "Detonation", occur in the engine's combustion chamber under conditions of extreme heat and compression, and a weak mixture or low-octane fuel. During the engine's compression stroke, the pressure of the air / fuel mixture is raised, which increases its temperature. This is good, because it makes it easier to ignite. However, when the pressure and temperature get too extreme "detonation" or "knock" can occur.
Detonation occurs when the spark plugs fire and the flame burns too quickly, resulting in the air / fuel mixture detonating, rather than a controlled burn. Also known as "pinking".
"Knock" occurs when the air / fuel mixture has its temperature and pressure raised to the point where it spontaneously ignites in the combustion chamber without the aid of a spark.
Knock is the phenomenon you're most likely to hear about. Both these problems can result in severe engine damage if allowed to occur unchecked, and both can be helped by using a fuel with a higher octane rating, as it will be more stable, and less susceptible to spontaneously ignition. Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, a higher octane fuel does not necessarily equate to greater engine performance - rather, it allows the engine to run at hotter temperatures and greater compression ratios. This can allow an engine to generate more power in a given period of time, thereby yielding greater performance.
400cc motorbikes tend to run at high revs, and so may benefit from a higher octane fuel.
Incidentally, diesel engines work totally differently in this regard - diesel engines don't use spark ignition, but instead use compression ignition. Air is compressed in the combustion chamber whic raises its temperature. Then fuel is injected into the cylinder at very high pressure which causes it to atomise and ignite with the very hot air to produce combustion. Diesel engines are built to withstand the stress generated when doing this. Thanks to ChrisMWard for clarifying the process for me.
Leaded Or Unleaded?
In a 400, you could actually run either. Lead compounds used to be added to petrol to increase its octane rating (as per above), and they also coated engine internals in a protective coatings. Unleaded fuels still contain poisonous octane-enhancers, however - the reason they're used over leaded fuel is partly because "unleaded" sounds more environmentally friendly, but mostly because in the absence of lead compounds, catalytic converters can be added to vehicle exhaust systems, which actually do help engine emissions. If you run a bike that does have a cat, you'll ruin it if you put leaded petrol in it - for one thing, the lead coats the catalytic components, rendering them useless. Since the catalyst and lambda-sensor (oxygen sensor) in these systems makes up part of the fuel injection system (by providing information to the CPU), it could even impact your fuelling. So don't do it. (Of course, you'll be hard pressed to find proper leaded, not LRP, in Britain). I don't imagine that this is an issue for 400 ownwers, as I doubt any of them have cats (the non-furry kind) fitted (certainly not if you've fitted a race system!).
All Japanese bikes have been running on unleaded since the seventies. See the threads "leaded petrol" and "Petrol what is best to use? 95 or 98 or 4 star?" for a fairly complete discussion. Note however that the odd rider does claim to use leaded exclusively, but these characters appear to be in the minority.
As an aside, apparently the RC30 (not to be confused with the NC30) runs on leaded petrol. Such engines are relatively easily converted to work fine with unleaded, by replacing some engine internals with harder wearing components.
Again, LRP ("Lead Replacement Petrol" or thereabouts) is described in this thread ("Fuel") as being "a really poor fuel", and best avoided.
Normal Or Super?
Super-unleaded has a higher octane rating than normal unleaded fuel (usually it's RON (Research Octane Value) is quoted, as it's usually highest out of the possible numbers to quote, making the fuel "sound" better - some of the newer "performance" fuels such as Shell Optimax apparently have an even higher RON rating). Whether it's any better to use super over normal unleaded in you bike is discussed in the threads, "Fuel" and "Premium or Regular".
In all honesty it probably doesn't matter all that much, which you use - normal unleaded should be fine. However, bear in mind that if you ride the nuts off your high-revving 400 all the time, the air/fuel mixture in your engine is going to be exposed to a hell of a lot of forces. In this situation, a higher-octane fuel may yield better performance - it's less likely to knock, and the engine may run a bit cooler. There's a very good article on fuels and octanes here (link submitted by lachlanm in this thread.
Shell Optimax
Shell Optimax is marketed as a performance fuel, that may improve (decrease) fuel consumption, responsiveness, and yield cleaner engine internals. It also walks the dog, makes you a coffee first thing in the morning, and ensures the mother-in-law never stays longer than half an hour. Or at least, Shell would probably claim these things if they could. Optimax apparently has an even higher RON rating than Super Unleaded, which for actual performance applications is indeed a benefit - i.e. in high revving sportsbike! What's probably more important than that though is its cleaning properties - if it does indeed keeps your engine internals cleaner, actually helping to scrub the insides, then that could have a greater effect on your performance than the change in octane! I personally usually use Optimax, and the bike seems to feel a bit smoother yet a bit more eager. For all the difference in cost, you're as well to give it a go. Hotter weather conditions and / or a more aggressive riding style will probably appreciate it more.
There's one interesting thread on the forum that not only talks about Optimax, but has comments from someone "in the industry" as it were (teltel);
It is produced from a completely different base product than all other gasoline products available. The base fuel used is more highly refined than normal gasoline, hence the superior performance. Also the additive package used amongst other things is extremely effective in cleaning the engine inlet tract and combustion chambers. When used in engines that have previously only used "normal" gasoline, (which often result in very dirty valve tulips and inlet tracts) Optimax cleans these components to an as new condition! and I mean "as New".
...
For added info, which some might already know. ALL fuels sold in UK except Shell Optimax, are basically and often literally, exactly the same base product in to which each company puts in their own additive package. i.e you will see all kinds of tankers filling up at a Shell distribution site, Texaco, Esso, BP, Sainsburys, Tesco etc. etc. and they all fill up with exactly the same base fuel, i.e. they all share distribution points in order to reduced transport costs, but each company will add its own additive package at the filling gantry. Some additive packages are not as good as others! So next time your filling up at the supermarket ask yourself why the fuel is cheaper than other petrol stations, when it all comes from the same place and is exactly the same base fuel. The quality and dose rate of additives makes a lot of difference in engine performance, wear, cleanliness, emissions etc. etc. etc.
Comments From A Tuner
I spoke to a tuning/performance engineer about whether using different fuels shows any benefit on the dyno. He'd experimented with normal unleaded, super-unleaded and Optimax, and found little to no difference on the dyno results. He'd done this owing to racing rules about using road fuel. He'd also tested Elf racing fuel, and found a slight improvement, but for a high cost. So, his conclusion from that is that there aren't any appreciable gains to be had between differing fuels.
I didn't think at the the time to ask, but I suspect that the tests would've been conducted with an already well-tuned racing bike, which makes me wonder if the same results would hold true on a bike for us mere road-going mortals. Again, this also says nothing of the supposed cleaning benefits on the engine of e.g. Optimax - if your engine was a bit clogged or dirty, cleaning it out would of course yield a benefit, whereas a race bike wouldn't (hopefully) get into that state in the first place...
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Last edited by tatters on 22:31 - 06 Sep 2004; edited 1 time in total |
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| Rory |
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Rory
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Posted: 22:22 - 06 Sep 2004  Post subject: |
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LOL, I wrote that! I'm no expert, but I'll try to answer any questions as best I can
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tatters
Exxon Valdez
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: 22:25 - 06 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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| Rory wrote: | LOL, I wrote that! I'm no expert, but I'll try to answer any questions as best I can |
great stuff 
400greybike has help me so much in the past, sharing the knowlege (note 400greybike.co.uk added to top of quote) 
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Past:NRG50,AF1125(x2),NSR125RR,ZZR250,CX500,VFR400,KR1S,ZZR600(x2),CB400N,YZF1000(x2),KH125,Z200,FX400R,CBR954RR(x2)GPZ500S,GT550,VFR750F(x2),RD350N,XR650R,CBR600F,CB250,KDX250,YZF750R,CRM250,400EXC,KLR650,TTR600RE,DR350S,R100GSPD,RGV250,VMAX1200,DL650,KZ750 Present:G650XC,C12,CRF450X,1190ADV
Last edited by tatters on 22:31 - 06 Sep 2004; edited 1 time in total |
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Rory
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| Posted: 22:28 - 06 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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400greybike.com or 400greybike.co.uk ? They're not the same! The article came from 400greybike.co.uk .
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tatters
Exxon Valdez
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| Posted: 22:31 - 06 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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.co.uk
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Rory
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| Posted: 22:34 - 06 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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Kickstart
The Oracle
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Zen Dog
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| Posted: 11:12 - 08 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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I take it its not worth putting super unleaded in my NSR then?
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mr jamez
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| Posted: 18:18 - 08 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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There is a certainly a placebo effect when switching from unleaded to super unleaded on a normal engine. I spent £20 on super unleaded, thought it made a difference, went back to unleaded today and it is exactly the same
Though petrol from an esso station etc seems to be better than supermarket petrol. |
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Rory
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| Posted: 18:21 - 08 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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The additive package that goes into petrol apparently makes that sort of difference. The additives help clean your internals, and affect the octane of the fuel. The additives are also varied during the year, to adapt to the seasonal weather conditions.
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c058y
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| Posted: 19:01 - 08 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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With my NSR125 I try to only use Texaco bog standard unleaded. I can actually notice a performance difference when using this fuel against any other I have tried.
Try it in your NSR and tell me what kind of effect you get from it! |
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Rollins
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Rory
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| Posted: 19:18 - 08 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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I keep meaning to try that, but there's almost never a BP on my way anywhere, so it usually ends up being Shell Optimax. It just feels a little better, and since I'm only ever putting a few liters into the bike at any one time, I don't notice the extra cost. Anyways, when you're doing 10000rpm+ on a regular basis, you really want a stable fuel!
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| dibbster |
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dibbster
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| Posted: 19:20 - 08 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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Only use bog standard unleaded as i can't see point paying extra for any slight increase in performance as im not on the limit of my bike anyway so don't need the (potential) increase!
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Rory
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| Posted: 19:23 - 08 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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Actually, to be honest I'm more interested in the claimed improvements in keeping your engine internals clean when using Optimax and friends. That's what keeps the bike running good, rather than it being a 100 RON fuel.
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JonB
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Josh
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| Posted: 23:56 - 08 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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At my local BP I experimented with Super/normal Unleaded, no noticeable differences, then started using Shell Optimax and it seemed to just make things smoother/better in general.
I think that may be a placebo though, because the advert with the fish and everything, it is so cool so yeah
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Lee_367
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| Posted: 09:26 - 09 Sep 2004 Post subject: |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 21 years, 127 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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