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Mehty
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Mehty
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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 Posted: 12:50 - 06 Sep 2011  Post subject: |
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It's a weird niche bike. The heart says yes, but the head says "Hmmm."
The engine is (I believe) from the Virago 125, so if it does a genuine "70/80mph" then it's been tuned to buggery.
Check that you can get insurance and parts. Wemoto stock only the basic consumables. It does look in good nick, but check it carefully: wheels, exhaust, electrics, check for corrosion and for damage from when it was dropped. Top Google hits include the comment "its being sold this week, at a auction  due to cannot buy parts".
Interesting beast, but he's valueing it based on what he's spent on it, not on what it's worth to a buyer. You'll be selling it as the 10th owner, it's obviously been down on the road, and you'll have to explain that replaced odometer.
Depending on condition, I'd likely say "Sachs, them's made in Korea innit?" offer £400 in cash, leave your number, then walk away. See how far he lets you get.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 13:09 - 06 Sep 2011 Post subject: |
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| pl3ppp wrote: | if i where to get it, i'd probably sort it out ^^ any major cause for something like this? And feed back on the make/model of the bike? Haven't heard or seen any around before  |
As the Add says Sach is a very old German Marque; adds suggestion they are hand built, suggesting some sort of 'bespoke' builder is stretching things a bit..... they are more like the German CCM....
The name has been going decades, and at one point they were one of the larger German makers, specialising in lightweight machines, particularly mopeds for the Dutch & Austrian markets. I believe they were a part of a big german 'combine' at one point, who bought them for thier engine making operation, and dont quote me, but I think they got merged with Zundap, and then absorbed into one of the bigger engine makers, probably Deutz or something......
Anyway, like CCM in the UK, who were bought into the Armstrong armaments conglomerate, then sold back off, only once, I think Sach's suffered a few 'new beginnings' to become what they are/were beginning of the milenium; a small scale manufacturer, following the Aprillia 'model' using proprietry engines and cycle parts bought in from sub contractors, and assembled in house.
Believe they used Yamaha engine's for the most part; though not sure what that V-Twin's oragin; looks vaguely Suzuki.
Peperami & Computid have Sach XTC's, which were Ducati inspired trellis framed 125's that used originally the TZR engine, then the fourstroke SR lump, I think.
General opinion is that the engineering and build quiality is pretty good; but they are rather heavy.
Lad at work had the TZR powered version, which was rather 'nice'; it was a sweet handling and not too sluggish little bike; though they reckon the four strokes were rather dissapointing.
Support for them though is rather dire; manuals dont exist (at least in English), and for parts you have to try and fathom whats Yamaha or equivilent to an Aprilia or something, and hope for the best.
THAT one, being a V-Twin and even LESS common model?
£895 is not 'cheap' for an eleven year old bike.
For the same money you could get something FAR more conventional and less likely to give you grief. Though, could be a fairly solid little bike for the money IF you knew how to handle its idiosyncrasies.
IF you know what you are getting; and can cope with any mechanics it might need, and know where to go to get stuff you might want for it..... could be useful, but If I was buying for say my daughter's 17th..... as it would be ME that had to maintain the thing.... I'd want a bit more financial incentive to take the risk.....
Eleven year old Marauder or Shaddow? Probably pick one up in fair fettle, for £900, possibly £700 for something that the chrome has started to tarnish on. So that would be my benchmark for that one, and I dont think I'd go over £750 for it..... and THEN only after doing a lot of homework to discopver exactly what engine it is, and what support there is for them, and how much likely to cost to insure.
And TBH; for what it IS, a Hyosung Commet, would probably actually be a safer bike to go for, for same 'kind' of bike; but so much better supported, and probably not hugely more expensive if you shop around.
THAT one is selling on its price, which is 'just' in the bargain basement, along side spares or repairs RS's, 'damaged Repairable' NSR's, cruisers without any shiney bits left, and old comuters that have seen better days; as an 'oddity' that still looks pretty good, and suggestion its rarity and hand built makes up for being unsupported.... but I'm not so certain it IS worth that money... though whether it sells will say!
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 18:15 - 06 Sep 2011 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Believe they used Yamaha engine's for the most part; though not sure what that V-Twin's oragin; looks vaguely Suzuki. |
It's Yamaha, it says it on it. Virago, I think, it looks like it's got the same fake rear pipe coming out and then down (the real one runs down and then out behind it). He's claiming it does "80mph" which is either tosh, or the engine isn't stock, which is just another problem waiting to happen.
It's the sort of bike that I might very well take a punt on, but I'm a bit funny that way. Probably a good reason to avoid it. 
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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Posted: 20:22 - 06 Sep 2011  Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | He's claiming it does "80mph" which is either tosh, or the engine isn't stock, which is just another problem waiting to happen. |
Clocks in Km/H isn't it?
He's probably guessing!
Would expect more than 80Kmh though!
What does the 125 Virago do 'Stock'? about 65ish?
That's what the modern DT's are electrically governed & XT four stroke was never any faster.
Would have thought Virago, being a twin might have a bit more 'go' about it, but be held back by mass.... so around 65-70ish 'real' speed.
But as all 125's, depends how optimistic the dials are!
Yammy dials always been notoriousely optimistic; my 1975 DT dial is calibrated to 100mph! Think the newer ones are marked to 110, with a tick for 120!
Lads were claiming over the ton 'Indicated' on the old RD125LC, after fitting microns; TZR's they claimed to see a ton 'stock'!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Nope.
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| Mehty |
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Mehty
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| Posted: 08:14 - 07 Sep 2011 Post subject: |
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It just looked like a nice bike that was slightly different to the norm  didn't know much about them and wasn't sure on people's experiences with them.
Thanks all for your help  
PS. whats the benefits of a VTwin? 
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 12:42 - 07 Sep 2011 Post subject: |
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| pl3ppp wrote: | PS. whats the benefits of a VTwin? |
 Ok, go put the kettle on, make a sandwhich while it boils, make a thermos of your preffered beverage; plump the cucions on your arm chair, make yourself comfy.... This COULD take a while.....
https://www.oakingtonplane.co.uk/images/2-34_motorcycle.jpg
Vintage motorcycle of the pioneering era.
I think it says Adanene or something on the tank, I dont know exactly what it is, but, usual 'pattern' for the era. The frame is basically a bicycle frame with an engine 'clipped' to the frame, and a belt drive straight off the crank to a large pulley on the back wheel. The engine is mounted in the 'Werner Position', the down front down tube of the diamond bicycle frame chopped, and an extended 'U' cradling the engine's crank case.... this was teh start of 'propper' motorbike frames designed to have an engine in them.
ENGINE is a generic 'De-Deon/Minerva' patern single. Says 'France' on the crank case, could possibly be an actual 'De-Deon'... this is the important bit, so I shall ramble on a bit about it.
Nikolaus August Otto, is the father of the infernal combustion engine, he is credited with defining the combustion 'process' or 'Otto-Cycle' on which most internal combustion engine's work, that is exemplified by the four 'strokes' of the four-stroke engine.
But it was another Germanm, Gottlieb Daimler, and his assistant Wilhelm Maybach, that took Otto's static 'gas' engine, and made it 'portable', and evolved it into something more useful; bolting their engine in a 'hobby-horse' frame to make the very first motorbike (See why he's a HERO!), then a horse cart, to make the first car, then a boat, and then the back of a hot air baloon to make a steerable 'air-ship'.... the emblem representing the tripple accomplishments of conquering 'Land, Sea, and Air' with a powered vehicle, is commemorated by the badge that he stuck on the cars he built.... the Mercedes Tri-Star..... However his engine was not very light, nor efficient, and he and rival Karl Benz, a keen cyclist, taking inspiration in lightweight construction from push-bikes, vied with each other, in the early years of the internal combustion engine, along with many others.
The FORGOTTEN here of the business though is Count Jules-Albert de Dion, a French Aristocrat, and technophile, who tinkered in his chateau stables, with anything 'mechanical', and was a partner in a steam-carriage makers in Paris.... an early customer of a Daimler car, I believe, he couldn't resist taking it to bits and 'improving' it....
Another upstanding Shedologist worthy of praise and glory, as so many inovators of the pioneering era were!
Result of his tinkering was a much 'simplified' four stroke engine, which he went on to use in his own 'cars', but the engines were even more popular;
De-Dion engine was basically the modern four stroke, as we would recognise it. His early offereings even had overhead valves and pushrods, and was very 'advanced'; BUT, biggest asset was it was SIMPLE..... Buscuit tin crank case cast barel on top cylinder head on top of that, it was all laid out nicely, simply, easy to follow and easy to MAKE.....
Not hugely powerful, about 3 1/2 horse power, about what a modern moped makes, BUT small enough and light enough to power a motor-bike, or tricycle.
Demand was far higher than he could supply, so he sold licences, like Daimler had done (which was why the Daimler Motor-Co, that makes hurses and the queens cars, is nothing to do with him! He sold the licence and ended up badging his cars 'Mercedes!'), main one was to Belgian gun maker 'Minerva', who offered complete De Dion engines 'off the shelf'... but he also sold 'one engine' licences, mail-order, you sent him a postal order, and he sent you back a set of blue prints to make your own engine!
By the 1920's, the popularity of the De Deon engine had been so great, and so many people had used it as the basis for thier own Shedology improvements, they were printing 'plans' to the De Dion engine in magazines, and writing features on how to improve them, and you could get De-Deon patern castings from your local foundry, to make your own engine.
VERY Simple, inside the crank case, the crank-shaft is pressed up, three short shafts for the main bearings and crank-pin, pressed into two discs, the crank pin off set, the main pins central... you have a crank.
Building pressed up cranks though was the delicate bit of teh job; they had to be carefully aligned and balenced as well as tightly assembled, or engine would shake itself to bits.
But do so, and you got neat, lightweight little engine, that could make around 3 - 5bhp.... but what do you do if that is not enough?
Quickest and simplest way to make more power is to make an engine bigger..... bore it out..... but that would mean making it bigger and heavier, and on a simple single cycliner De-Dion type engine, risk that poor crank shaft taking a hammering.....
Add more cylinders.... more cylinders you can increase the capacity without making the components bigger, or increasing loads on them....
So, lets stick TWO De-Dion engines side by side.... this is what De-dion originally did, for his cars, and then he stuck two more behind them to make an in-line four.... which proved very suitable for a car engine, but rather heavy for a motortbike.
Doubling ALL the components up doubles up the weight....
Animation of four stroke engine for you:
https://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/teflons-torque/050_B_001_Motor/4-Stroke-Engine.gif
Modern one, but not a lot different to the 1880's De-Dion!
Now, IF you were to stick another cylinder at say 45 degrees to the first on the same crank case, and make the crank pin a bit wider so you could fit TWO con-rods on it......
You have a twin cylinder engine, with twice the displacement and twice the power, BUT... you have only added the wight of the cylinder and cylinder head, con-rod and piston, and a tiny little bit of crank-pin......
AND if you 'Time' the second cylinder, so that it's power stroke, is overlapping the first cylinder's induction stroke, then you put the second pistons 'load' on the crank pin, at a different time to the first's and dont over-load it..... better still, with two pistons firing onto the same crank-pin, one is helping power the other through the 'un-powered' strokes of the cycle, AND evening out the CHANGE in loadings on the crank a bit, making for a more reliable and 'smoother' power delivery, as WELL as more power....
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lVCC9aDALT4/S2N4S_xax_I/AAAAAAAAKJc/5ejqsXaaOBQ/s400/322348_large.jpg
Idea spread very quickly, and in the early days of the pioneering era, 'fast' motorcycles were V-Twins, for these reasons.....
The configuration is narrow, suiting a slim cycle frames machine, and with one cylinder angled along the front down tube of a diamond frame, the other backwards up the seat tube, it FITS very nicely in what WAS the conventional technology of the day....
And the configuration was hugely popular more more 'sporting' cycles right through the 1930's.
BUT, as frame technology evolved, and cycle frames fell out of favour as 'dedicated' motorcycle frames were created, and engine technology progressed, allowing more power from a single cylinder engine; the V-Twin started to LOOSE advantage, and the convenient 'shape' became a hinderence to frame design, and its power benefits deminished as bigger more reliable singles could be made more powerful, more cheaply and lighter......
And THEN came the parallel twin, with two cylinders side by side, on two crank journals.... that offered as much power as a V-Twin, with little extra weight, and less dimensional constraints needed in building a frame to house it....
SHORT answer is that THESE DAYS, there is little or NO 'practical' benefit of a V-Twin... you can pretty much get as much power out of any configuration of engine, acceptable reliability, and much more convenient shape......
BUT its a 'Classic' configuration, and they do have a certain 'off-beat' rumble and unique power delivery that some find rather 'charming', and the lay-out does rather 'suit' the layout of a custom or cruiser motorcycle.......
Though I suppose I OUGHT to mention the modern 'sports-V's'.....
1970's, Ducati made small capacity single cylinder motorbikes; there was little 'special' about them, but a novel feature,m re-invented from the 1930's, they had re-invented the 'Desmodromic' valve mechanism, with a second set of cam lobed and rockers to not just open, the valves in the engine, but close them again, too.... in the 1920's & 30's this had been a solution to the problem of poor material quiality, seeing hard pressed valve springs break rather too regularly when over reved.....
Ducati picked the idea back up, and percevered with it to tryu and get thier little singles to rev more highly, from it, and thence make more power..... they were 'fairly' quick, but, not so much so as to really warrant the extra cost and complexity; good Velocette single could usually beat a Ducatti... and do so with push-rods! OHC Matchless G5, would leave one for dead.... But where Velocette was a bespoke and expensive road/racer, and the Matchless a dedicated race bike... Ducattis bikes were show-room models... BUT limited in capacity.... biggest they made was 350cc for a long while. And bikes were getting bigger.... Ducatti needed 'something' to compete with the big 650's from England and the BMW's from Germany....
So they delved BACK into the anals of history where they had got desmodromic valves from..... and did the same making an 'old school' V-Twin from a pair of thier 450cc Desmo-Singles, to create the 900SS
https://classic-motorbikes.net/images/gallery/ducati-900-ss.jpg
Giving it a 90 degree cylinder angle, bevel drive and desmo valves, it was a pretty light, and fast bike, in its day.... the early 1970's, and they continued campaigning it in endurance racing right up to the early 80's, when 'tuned' it could ALMOST stay with a Jap 550 'four'......
In Super-Bike racing, against the likes of the Lawson 1100 Kwak or Hondas CB1100, the thing hadn't got a HOPE.... well, it DID, they got legendary Brummie Mike Hailwood to ride the thing, and he make the bike look a LOT better than it actually was.... but simple facts were, it was hoplessly outclassed....
FIM, decided that superbike racing was getting a bit 'silly' though, and dropped the capactity limit, successively from 1100cc down to 1000cc, then to 750... to keep the 'fours' in check... BUT to encourange the smaller european manufacturers... OK, give Ducatti a 'Back-Door'.... they left the 1000cc limit for two cylinder bikes.....
Late 80's early 90's, Ducati exploited it for all they were worth, and evolving a 'new' belt driven cam, 'Desmo' and pioneering fuel injection, with punative weight limits imposed on the 'fours', Ducatti managed to achieve SOME World-Super-Bike Success.....
And were selling lots and lots of effoff expensive cantankerouse, garage trophies to a new breed or rich urban liesure biker, on the back of it....
SO... Japs decided, what's source for the goose.... and decided to give Ducati a run for thier money, and level the playing field, and make their OWN 'Super-Twin' sports motorcycles, to exploit the same FIM Super-Bike rule loop-holes, and take Ducati on, 'head to head'.....
SV650 and its ilk, are the legacy of THAT bit of 'fasion' for want of a better word.
Any the wiser? Does that explain it for you? Are you still conciouse? Do you need medical assistance?
THE END
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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