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G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 13:23 - 29 Aug 2006 Post subject: Bike safe London; a rider’s eye view (Warning: Long!) |
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A report from when I did Bike Safe recently, sorry rather long, as often is the case with me...
The day started with me leaving myself about 35 minutes to get From Reading to the Ace cafe. Realising that it was getting on for 50 miles including a stretch of 50mph and 40mph on the A40, I didn't start the day with quite the riding that I was expecting for the rest.
I'm one of the last to arrive, so we get started fairly soon after.
We're first given a basic introduction to the course with an explanation of what it's about and how the day will run.
As I presumed, the training is based on the book "Motorcycle Roadcraft: A Police Rider's Handbook". This is a book that I bought a few years ago and at points I have tried to follow some of the principals laid out in it. With most of my recent road riding being utilitarian Motorway use, I haven't really practiced this much recently. Though on the bike or in the car I still do make use of the 'Vanishing Point' rule on country lanes.
My plan had been to try and get some practice beforehand and to dig out the book for some quick revision. Due to time, always being in a hurry when trying riding the bike and the book being buried at the bottom of a pile of 4 large boxes; none of this happened.
The main presentation was given on some of the basis of good observation and road positioning.
For instance, working out where the road is going past your sight of the tarmac, observation of Hazards, the vanishing point.
Then to compliment that good road positioning to ensure that you can have good observations; for instance staying to the right in a left hand bend. Also, of course, good road positioning when you do spot a hazard with your good position!
There wasn't anything in here that I hadn't read before, so maybe not the greatest of use to me. However I'm sure some people will find it more informative.
As this is London, they then gave their stance on filtering - something that you can't really avoid in London.
They said they're quite happy for people to filter providing they're sensible. For them, this means no more than 10 - 15mph over the speed of the traffic and not filtering when the traffic speed is fairly near the speed limit.
As we were told how he found it ridiculous that people would be filtering past him at speed as he sat on the M25 doing 60, I wondered if he'd recognise my bike from Thursday rush hour, where I had been doing something along those lines.
They also mentioned that they were 'realistic' about speed - 30,40,50s they said stick to, but unlimited and 60s, do whatever is safe.
They had asked us to leave out keys with indemnity forms so they could check them over. Not sure if they got the chance to have a look at mine, but I'd made sure it was in good condition anyway.
I was paired up with a Polish Lorry driver on a CBR600 and with the main policeman who had been organising the day - and who I'd say I least liked thanks to what appeared to be a bit arrogant attitude and some tired old jokes.
Luckily they don't have a radio system for us, so not a problem while we were riding!
I'm not sure exactly what they mean by maximum speeds filtering, so try and subtley ask what they consider 'sensible' while we're out. I get the old classic "Just ride as you would normally"; 'Ho... no, no, no officer, you don't want me to do that!', I think, however I keep my thoughts to myself as I'd prefer not to advertise to the police that my usual riding style has been described using the word 'twat'.
We set off with me in the lead, followed by the police bike, then the other student. I definitely feel nervous having a police bike behind me - as they mentioned in the briefing, it does that to people! However, on reflection later, I think it's more the 'being observed' feeling, like when doing my test, as I'm trying to ride appropriately 'safely', following all the advanced techniques they mentioned previously.
I'm not sure how much the Police instructor is willing to take the piss - and find that it's more than I am doing, as going on to the A40 he ignores the long dotted-line cross hatchings and cuts straight across into the traffic behind me.
When we stop half way out, I'm criticised for not being too smooth - using the brakes in places that I shouldn't have had to or didn't have to. He mentions a few other bits, to which I do actually find myself defending myself a bit too much - as a lot of the points are one's I've noticed as well.
The ride back sees us swapping places, with me at the back and the other student leading the police man. I note that the other rider must have got up to 50 or so in a 30, while the policeman doesn't keep up with this speed, nor does he seem amazingly bothered - I'm not sure if this is mentioned to him after, though.
The speeds we've been going have been far from would I would consider 'good progress', even for roads I don't know.
Coming back on the A40 I have to be amused by a hatchback in the middle lane, undertaking us in the outside lane. We were doing just over the speed limit of 50, so undertaking a marked up police bike would seem like a rather stupid thing to do!
Sure enough, as the hatchback starts to get in front of us, our friendly cop pulls along side and makes a 'get back' gesture, which the hatch back quickly obeys.
Over lunch I ask about his views on stunting outside the Ace "Not the right place for it at all", minimotos on the street and a few other bits. Nothing revolutionary in his views, for a police officer.
At the start of the second ride we are delayed when just down the road from the Ace Cafe another BikeSafe officer is dealing with an HGV, stopped in the middle of the A40/A406 junction.
We proceed on. The other bloke is leading first this time; the police man told me that as I was a bit quicker, he'd let the other bloke do the initial town stuff.
While following, I try to practice not using the brakes at all, as well as trying to keep an 'inner monologue' going about hazards and changes in the road ahead.
One thing I realise is that earlier I was trying to think about too much stuff at once, which was partly not helping my smoothness.
I'm not sure if I've considered it before, but I try and keep my thoughts about both hazards and the road concentrated on making a 'plan of attack'. So basically I'm considering where my road position and speed will be in say, ten seconds time; adding in both road direction and hazards to this equation.
We stop at a petrol station and it's time for me to go in front again. Coming out after paying for my petrol, I find the grey skies we were riding under have got a bit too grey; it starts to rain. As we leave get into the 'unlimited' roads outside the town we enter a serious downpour.
Trying to keep good road positioning sees me going into a truck channel with what would be described as standing water, if it wasn't more akin to a river!
My race compound Supercorsa tyres aren't quite at their element here, mixed with the bumpy surface left from trucks passing they can't hack it and both start to wobble around with only a gentle lean angle.
I back off slightly, but decide it'd be a better idea to sacrifice positioning for grip. Discussing this with the instructor afterwards, he's in agreement with the way I handled the situation.
Getting out of the rainy area, the roads are still crisp and dry, so we can make better 'progress'.
I'm making a point of not using the brakes mostly, apart from coming up to junctions where I may have to stop. However I get the feeling that I'm still not being nearly as 'smooth' as should be expected - it's just that I'm replacing the brakes with engine braking rather than slowing down gently and in plenty of time.
The 'system' that the Police and lots of other 'advanced' riding techniques use involves setting the speed for a corner well before you get to it.
With little, or gentle braking, using a lot of engine braking.
Personally, I don't like this - braking is one of the parts I enjoy when riding a motorcycle.
Even though I was making an effort here, I found myself using excessive amounts of engine braking to slow quite a bit at the last moment. The Police instructor commented that I seemed quite a lot smoother this ride, I wondered if I really was, or if it was just that he didn't see my brake light flashing on and off all the time?
The instructor stopped us at a specific spot to explain how good road positioning can help. Standing in the middle of the lane, we can see there's a gentle left hand bend ahead. However move close to the centre line and you can see further; we can see there's actually quite a sharp right after the left hand bend.
After a quick brake, with some more discussion about the vanishing point amoungst other things, we set off with a warning that the road ahead is not only a single lane, but has some very sharp bends.
My normal road positioning in such situations depends on how far I can see ahead. If I can see a decent distance ahead by moving to the right of the lane, I will do so. However, if moving over still doesn't give me a comfortable time to react an oncoming vehicle travelling fast, I will stick to the left hand side. This proved to be a good tactic to use on this section of road, which had high banks and thick forest either side of the twisty single lane.
Coming out of a tight corner, I had time to pull right into the left hand side before an oncoming car reached me.
Pulling away as the car reached me I look in my mirror to see the policeman come around the corner, towards his right hand side of the carriageway, straight towards the centre of the car's bonnet. Suspect he had to use his brakes then!
Now he managed to avoid the car without trouble, but personally I prefer my method. It may or may not be the safest, but it definitely feels more sensible to me.
In some cases I will give quick 'bibs' of my horn when riding around lots of blind corners, in the hope that a car coming the other way at high speed may slow down a bit and drive more defensively; I didn't in this case, however.
The rest of this twisty bit was probably the highlight of the ride. As I mentioned before, I don't think I was that smooth, but it was an interesting challenge not touching the brakes at all. My smoothness was definitely in question when knocking down gears at the last minute to scrub off that bit extra speed saw a few little rear wheel slides.
However the instructor and other rider emerged from this section a while after me, so probably didn't notice this.
The instructor had previously said "if I'm keeping up with you, there's no problem with your speed, if you see me drop back, then I've noticed something you haven't" - so I'm guessing he would have been happy enough for me to go faster than the indicated 90mph, or a tad over I was going. Kept to around 85mph on non-dual carriageway A roads.
Think we confused another biker who was stuck at a rigid 70mph on the inside lane of the A40 - as he saw a bike followed by a police bike both come past doing a bit over 90, with no indication that the rider in front was being chased for his in indiscretion!
I still had a couple of people pull out in front of me when I was at the back of our group, but it was nice to think that if anybody did do anything stupid, they would most likely come worst off legally .
There was a couple of points I picked up on the second ride that I'd consider would be a bit iffy decisions from an 'advanced' perspective. I wasn't picked up on these after, but that may just be because I got 'defensive' the first time.
There was a line of parked cars to the right a way ahead and we were behind a relatively slow moving car. Once an oncoming bus had gone past, I over took smoothly accelerating to the 50mph speed limit.
What I hadn't noticed was the 30mph limit sign by the line of parked cars ahead - the parked cars were an obvious sign that we were entering a residential zone. Now it still probably wouldn't be considered too bad a move, but as we were travelling in a group, I wasn't really giving the rest of the group time to overtake individually and safely before the speed limit changed.
Also, along the M40 we were coming up a patch of heavy rain. The instructor slowed from our 90mph cruising a way before it, I didn't.
I did register it's presence and consider my actions, but I obviously wasn't thinking along 'advanced riding' lines, so continued on at a similar pace.
As well as the point I mentioned above relating to being the wrong side of the road on a narrow lane, there were a few other issues I would personally have with the policeman's riding style.
I'm not saying his riding isn't safe, I'm sure he's crashed a lot less times than me, but I just don't like them...
He would happily sit in the outside lane of a triple lane A road or motorway. He said "well, if I see anyone coming up behind me, I just pull in". Now on a marked up police bike, not that many people are going to be trying to overtake you when you're doing the speed limit, so an issue for him in that aspect.
However on another I consider it rude - even if you're checking mirrors at the proper intervals, it's easy enough for someone to accelerate and get pretty close to you - meaning that you cause them to slow down before you pull in.
More iffy I found was his habit to sit in the opposing lane on single carriageway roads.
I believe they now don't teach police this for when exiting corners, because of the number of people that ended up hitting an oncoming car, not realising the combined 'closing' speed.
My issue was with when he was doing it on a straight road with an oncoming car. He would pull in with a couple of seconds to spare before the oncoming car was along side him.
Now maybe this is safe for him, but if I was in a car driving the opposite way and saw a bike, never mind a Police bike, in my lane when they didn't need to be, it would worry me at least.
Probably cause me to slow down for no reason, even if doing a safe speed - I would wonder if they were likely to try and cut into a side turning, or were paying more attention to something else, etc.
Rather than stopping at roundabouts and junctions, he would crawl forward slowly without putting his foot down. Is it smoother? Probably. Does it actually achieve anything - I doubt it personally.
I'm guessing in the cases he was creeping out, he would have observed a space he could definitely make and was sure he wouldn't be holding anyone up. However I still consider it a bit rude.
Also, he would often make full use of his acceleration to dart out in front of people on roundabouts and the like. First off, while this should be relatively safe, I wonder what would happen if something did go wrong on his bike, or similar - maybe a slow puncture he picked up before suddenly opened? In this case he could be left on his arse with a car rapidly approaching.
I do this sort of thing in day to day riding, but I don't consider it a massively 'safe' manoeuvre.
On the way back, he went ahead of me, as I pulled into the A406 filter lane about half a mile back. He pulled in at the last minute.
Again, this is something I do, but I wouldn't consider quite as 'safe' and do consider a bit rude, especially if I'm joining the traffic rather than carrying on filtering.
Along the short stretch of the A406 I reckon I must have been doing about 75 behind him to keep up - perhaps a suggestion that he is 'human' and does realise that some 50 limits are safer than others.
I then slotted in to the filter lane fairly late; waiting at the traffics lights I got a thumbs up and a comment about good prior-planning, or similar.
Now this sort of thing, again I do regularly, but it does hold increased risks, for instance a car in the filter lane slowing suddenly or pulling out when they realise they actually want the next junction.
In a similar manner, while I may often go across cross hatching, I can see there's added elements of danger as well as confusion to other road users. Again, I'd also consider it a little rude - basically I'd get annoyed if someone was doing it in a car probably.
At the end we were given a final 'debriefing' and shown some horror-pictures of what happens when it goes wrong.
Oh and pulling away after the end of the day I just had to pull a wheelie down the road away from the Ace Cafe .
On the way home, one of the junctions off the A40 was closed - there was an Aprilia RS125 on it's side with police in attendance.
All in all, I would recommend it. For a start, along with another minor mod to my ebike insurance policy I got £5 off a month! Also got some discounts for a few different things, including two 10% off vouchers with no limits and 10% off Giali Protective and heated clothing – Id quite like one of their suits and this’ll help me afford one once the racing season is over..
For those that haven't tried out any advanced riding techniques in the past, it should give you some good insights.
While the police man seemed in agreement that it wasn't much more than a 'refresher' for me, I’d recommend doing it anyway – if nothing else some of the discounts do seem genuine and worth the £30 and day spent.
More details can be found here:
https://www.bikesafe-london.co.uk/ |
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Mister James |
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Mister James I want to believe!
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TheDonUK |
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TheDonUK World Chat Champion
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tintin |
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tintin Traffic Copper
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andrea |
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andrea World Chat Champion
Joined: 26 Feb 2006 Karma :
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Posted: 14:06 - 29 Aug 2006 Post subject: |
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Great write up G
I'm going to do some advanced with my riding school as soon as i have my bike on the road. i feel quite lucky as the person who taught me to ride initally for my test taught us all about the limit point, overtakes, filtering, not using brakes and positioning etc and included loads more than i would have learnt in an intensive course. In fact he had to bring us down a level for the test itself!
More to learn though, so that's my plan |
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colin1 |
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colin1 Captain Safety
Joined: 17 Feb 2005 Karma :
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Posted: 14:18 - 29 Aug 2006 Post subject: |
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Great read. Also nice to read your little debate over traditional advanced driving vs the way you do things with experience.
Id definitely agree with most of the things where you thought you knew better than the 'advance' way.
Particularly race line being safer in slippy conditions, and best line for visibility being a bit dangerous with oncoming cars being close to the line.
except
"Rather than stopping at roundabouts and junctions, he would crawl forward slowly without putting his foot down. Is it smoother? Probably. Does it actually achieve anything - I doubt it personally. "
I am a big fan of slowing down when approaching red traffic lights, so when they turn green, I am in motion and so dont have to accelerate up to speed from a stand still.
Not only is it smoother, its faster for a given amount of petrol burnt.
If I am rolling slowly up and the lights change, i dont have to do 0 to 40 to get back up to speed, i do 5 to 40 instead.
I know most people like to maintain speed and then brake and stop just before the lights but they get left behind as i roll past and accelerate leisurely up to speed.
I have always done this and consider it sensible for fuel economy, speed, convenience etc. When a few years ago a policman friend of mine did his car training he was surprised about this being recommended and was more surprised when I said I always do it.
I am also a big fan of riding with gentle braking or engine braking, although I would like to be able to get a bit of practice at hard braking in case I have an emergency or I do a track day. ____________________ colin1 is officially faster than god |
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Dark |
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Dark World Chat Champion
Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 14:31 - 29 Aug 2006 Post subject: |
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An interesting read G, a mate of mine is a Bikesafe instructor and i question some of the techniques he uses also, to be honest i find that following him is a very frustrating experience.
I don't profess to be an expert rider but i find some of the lines he uses positively dodgy ____________________ My Bikes in order:- Yamaha RXS100 / Suzuki X7 250 / Yamaha RD350LC / Kawasaki
KR1S 250 / Kawasaki ZXR750 H2 / Honda C50 / Kawasaki ZX7R P5 / Kawasaki ZX10R / Suzuki GSXR 400 / Honda CBR1100 Blackbird & Yamaha FZR 600 |
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G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :
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akaDAVE |
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akaDAVE World Chat Champion
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Annabella |
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Annabella Like a person, only smaller
Joined: 03 Feb 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 15:08 - 29 Aug 2006 Post subject: |
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Did the policeman have short legs, and that's why he crawled up to junctions rather than stopping?
I have to creep forward and try to stay balanced if the road has got a dodgy cambre as I know as soon as I try to put my foot down I'll be on the floor
Good write up ____________________ Avast! Pirates ahoy!
I did Cadwell!
www.bikepics.com/members/bella |
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killa |
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killa Won't Shut Up
Joined: 18 Oct 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 15:28 - 29 Aug 2006 Post subject: |
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Quite a painful read IMO, what was with the speeding and stuff?
Everyone who I have spoken to who has taken part in this course has said similar things. Basically, thinking about far too much, you’re nervous and defensive about your riding for most of it because you watch them with amazement and think WTF.
You found yourself being told your probably backing off because of him, well what did he expect, a race?
G wrote: | They also mentioned that they were 'realistic' about speed - 30,40,50s they said stick to, but unlimited and 60s, do whatever is safe. |
I can see some smart comments coming my way after this but G seriously, he’s a bike cop on a cop bike, he can do what he sees as sensible on any road, on this £30 for the day course you can to and try to follow him. Why doesn’t this apply when you’re on your own?
In the past threads have been up where people were doing several MPH over the limit (including me), good road, nice conditions and fined/banned. The ‘limit is the limit’ was what members harped on about on here, so who’s right?
To camera correct, to a cop from bike safe with a speed gun, I’d have saved myself £450 because he’s not a complete cunt.
G wrote: | When we stop half way out, I'm criticised for not being too smooth - using the brakes in places that I shouldn't have had to or didn't have to. He mentions a few other bits, to which I do actually find myself defending myself a bit too much - as a lot of the points are one's I've noticed as well. |
You had to notice because there’s a cop behind you and when you come off the bike for £30 you don’t want “Yes sir, well done, ever considered joining the force?” Do you think he was measuring your smoothness by the brake light, I’d fucking put money on it. Also, he rides better than you remember.
G wrote: | Sure enough, as the hatchback starts to get in front of us, our friendly cop pulls along side and makes a 'get back' gesture, which the hatch back quickly obeys. |
Riding for a lengthy period of time with someone who can part the lanes of traffic with a hand gesture and break speed limits must have got tedious.
G wrote: | Over lunch I ask about his views on stunting outside the Ace "Not the right place for it at all", minimotos on the street and a few other bits. Nothing revolutionary in his views, for a police officer. |
Was there some horrible silences? Lol
Asking a cop, hey mate, do you think stuntins alright infront of the café like?
G wrote: | The instructor stopped us at a specific spot to explain how good road positioning can help. Standing in the middle of the lane, we can see there's a gentle left hand bend ahead. However move close to the centre line and you can see further; we can see there's actually quite a sharp right after the left hand bend. |
I see it as a challenge, if you lapse in concentration (it happens) and miss that switch back, it can be entertaining once your in it.
I could show him a set of corners that would make that city slicker push a turtle head, leave him and hand him a coffee when he finally got to where I was going.
G wrote: | More iffy I found was his habit to sit in the opposing lane on single carriageway roads.
Now maybe this is safe for him, but if I was in a car driving the opposite way and saw a bike, never mind a Police bike, in my lane when they didn't need to be, it would worry me at least.
Probably cause me to slow down for no reason, even if doing a safe speed - I would wonder if they were likely to try and cut into a side turning, or were paying more attention to something else. |
That’s a strange one, perhaps he didn’t like you much and wanted to see if you could pass the ‘head on challenge’
G wrote: | Rather than stopping at roundabouts and junctions, he would crawl forward slowly without putting his foot down. |
Approaching a junction, roundabout, looking to the left, right, checking mirrors using just the right amount of throttle and clutch is something you don’t do when you are learning to ride, it is a skill to be learnt and I think it is handy, also good if you’re showing off.
G wrote: | Also, he would often make full use of his acceleration to dart out in front of people on roundabouts and the like. |
G wrote: | I'm not saying his riding isn't safe, I'm sure he's crashed a lot less times than me, but I just don't like them... |
You might not have a crash for 10 years being a bike cop, but someone darting out of a roundabout might wipe you out for good.….
I think you knew this before you went, but hey, £5 off a month’s insurance was worth the lecture. ____________________ Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
Bike:- Yamaha TRX850 | Killas Biking History | Killas Gaming History | Killas autmotive history |
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sickpup |
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sickpup Old Timer
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Dark |
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Dark World Chat Champion
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Posted: 17:17 - 29 Aug 2006 Post subject: |
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Did you get out of the wrong side of the bed or something today Killa? ____________________ My Bikes in order:- Yamaha RXS100 / Suzuki X7 250 / Yamaha RD350LC / Kawasaki
KR1S 250 / Kawasaki ZXR750 H2 / Honda C50 / Kawasaki ZX7R P5 / Kawasaki ZX10R / Suzuki GSXR 400 / Honda CBR1100 Blackbird & Yamaha FZR 600 |
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extreme3d |
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extreme3d World Chat Champion
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Posted: 17:20 - 29 Aug 2006 Post subject: |
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I did bikesafe with the North Yorkshire Police in Thirsk. Our course was run with two evening classroom sessions (with refreshments!) before the actual ride out.
I was pleasantly surprised at how well organised the course was and more importantly how 'real world' it was. Speed limits were on the whole encouraged but be no means rigidly adhered to, certainly were overtaking whole lines of cars were involved!
The officers took us out in groups of 2, although I was lucky enough to go out on my own. They weren't on Pans either but on a brand new R1 and SP2. Next to all the marked and unmarked Subaru Impretza's, top end volvos and other specialist vehicles their garage had some seriously nice kit (They get that little lot as they don't have speed cameras in north Yorkshire so fairs fair I suppose )
The ride itself was also a lot of fun, not least because the route encompassed the Yorkshire TT - where he promptly shot off to well over the ton
I highly recommend anyone does it. We all thought we knew all there was to know about riding fast on the roads round here. The Yorkshire TT I know like the back of my hand - yet I still learnt a heck of a lot - some of which has already saved my life.
Last edited by extreme3d on 17:23 - 29 Aug 2006; edited 1 time in total |
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killa |
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killa Won't Shut Up
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colin1 |
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colin1 Captain Safety
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Mister James |
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Mister James I want to believe!
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Annabella |
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Annabella Like a person, only smaller
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Posted: 17:40 - 29 Aug 2006 Post subject: |
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Luke_Retrofly |
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Luke_Retrofly Silly Lesbian
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Posted: 17:46 - 29 Aug 2006 Post subject: |
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@ G
ZZZzzzZZZ @ killa (the bore whore) ____________________ Flounced - Long overdue
Fuck you bitch I'm in the top 10 list I can do the what the fuck I want! |
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extreme3d |
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extreme3d World Chat Champion
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Posted: 18:18 - 29 Aug 2006 Post subject: |
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phk6 |
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phk6 Nearly there...
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rossidude46 Borekit Bruiser
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mistergixer |
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mistergixer World Chat Champion
Joined: 15 Jun 2005 Karma :
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fatoldtramp |
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fatoldtramp L Plate Warrior
Joined: 29 Aug 2006 Karma :
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Harold_Shand |
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Harold_Shand World Chat Champion
Joined: 07 Jun 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 02:28 - 30 Aug 2006 Post subject: |
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Did you meet Kate?
____________________ BCF's 6th favourite poster 2009-2010
Harold_Shand's theory might be the best explanation. |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 17 years, 244 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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