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Iran has kidnapped 15 british navy personnel

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G
The Voice of Reason



Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 20:06 - 31 Mar 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Iran was seen as an 'Iraq' before Iraq. That was partly why the west gave Saddam lots of weapons and tactical advice on the use of chemical weapons etc.

Iran is a much more 'serious' Islamic state that I would worry about owning nuclear weapons; however the recent actions of the US and UK I think shows exactly why they quite reasonably 'need' a nuclear deterrent.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 08:43 - 01 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
GodzGift wrote:
I wouldnt believe half the nonsense which comes on tv. The Navy would never really reveal what was really going on in the first place. Its important not to be in this situation in this first place.


I'm not sure what you are trying to imply here.

Are you suggesting that the incident was staged by us, that the Royal Navy is lying in its interpretation of events, or something else?

I'm unsure why you think that the RN would 'never really reveal' the facts of the matter - or why you think they would be stupid enough to ever believe that they could cover up such a serious and traumatic experience even if they wanted to?

It's also worth remembering that the Cornwall was part of a flotilla of ships on station to enforce a UN mandate.

Quote:

I dont see why all of a sudden everyone is seeing Iran as the next Irak. Just leave them alone, what have they done to the UK?


While I disagree with much of G's conclusions ref. Iran, it is (and has always been) a separate issue to Iraq - not least in that no-one has suggested an incursion with ground forces.
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GodzGift
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Joined: 13 May 2006
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PostPosted: 13:58 - 01 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
If the US and UK didnt have there hands tied up with Iraq and Afghanistan they would probably make another poor excuse and invade Iran.

and yes the RN would cover everything up.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 14:45 - 01 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
UrbanRacer wrote:
seeing as we are replacing the trident nuclear deterant why don't we use up the current stock of missiles on iran?


They are not proposing to replace the trident missiles, merely the subs that carry them. Part of the reason for this is that when the Trident carrying subs were built they squeezed the costs right down resulting in a fleet than cannot be cost effectively refitted to increase their service life (unlike the US Trident carrying fleet whose service life is being extended).

Jon B wrote:
So looks like I proved myself wrong, however I still stand that the UK spends too much on Armed Forces when we have problems back home.


If you invest carefully in weapons then to an extent they pay for themselves with export order. We used to manage it quite well and the USA does a very good job of it these days. Unfortunatly all we have these days is some down market equipment which nobody would want unless it is going cheap. Last UK designed military aircraft was the Hawk in the mid 70s (and its primary role is training). Next round of ships are going to partly be outsourced to France. The primary infantry weapon is the SA80, which hardly has a good reputation and which had its recent upgrades done in Germany. Basically low investment leading to zero returns. However that problem largely stems from the 1950s (when the SLR was introduced, basically a licenced Belgian Fn) and 60s (cancellation of the TSR2 project).

craigie b wrote:
You'll note that labour changed the name of road tax to Vehicle Excise Duty.


That changed many years before labour scrambled to the top of the politcal pile this time.

Personally I suspect there is far more to the situation than we getting told. It would not surprise me if the board and search operation was partly being used to try and provoke an Iranian response, but equally the response has been OTT.

While it is against the geneva convention to parade them on TV, I wonder how that goes with the arrest and prosecution of Saddam Hussain.

All the best

Keith
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 17:12 - 01 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
GodzGift wrote:
If the US and UK didnt have there hands tied up with Iraq and Afghanistan they would probably make another poor excuse and invade Iran.


They have no need to invade Iran - if you paid any attention to international affairs you'd realise that. Even the most idiotic left-wing commentator has only discussed an air war.

Quote:

and yes the RN would cover everything up.


Ok Bigshag, what exactly do you think they are covering up, and why?
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GodzGift
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Joined: 13 May 2006
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 01 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:

They have no need to invade Iran - if you paid any attention to international affairs you'd realise that. Even the most idiotic left-wing commentator has only discussed an air war.


No need hey, thats what was said about Iraq, and yet the troops were deployed many weeks before hand. and what benefits will air war or any other type of move, will bring to the UK?

Quote:
Ok Bigshag, what exactly do you think they are covering up, and why?


Hard to tell, could have been recon, could have been anything. Either way now were done for, as any type of strike means the captured troops will be done for. I dont see them being released any time soon.
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pwntifex
World Chat Champion



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: 23:03 - 01 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
GodzGift wrote:

Hard to tell, could have been recon, could have been anything. Either way now were done for, as any type of strike means the captured troops will be done for. I dont see them being released any time soon.

No way those troops are going to be in any sort of danger, imo.

Bet the boys are already on alert..
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 08:41 - 02 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
GodzGift wrote:

No need hey, thats what was said about Iraq, and yet the troops were deployed many weeks before hand.


Two points here:

Arrow I seem to remember that everyone knew Iraq was going to involve 'boots on the ground' from the word go - and don't recall anyone trying to claim otherwise.

Arrow By your own logic, we should be seeing huge ground troop build-ups in preparation for this alleged invasion of Iranian territory. Of course, this isn't the case at all - so by your own reasoning you are talking rubbish!

Quote:

and what benefits will air war or any other type of move, will bring to the UK?


One would assume that the destruction of any Nuclear Industrial sites would be a priority, as well as the attrition of any strategic assets capable of threatening coalition interests.

Quote:

Hard to tell, could have been recon, could have been anything.


So you are positive they are covering something up, but haven't a clue what it might possibly be? Wow, that's some conspiracy theory you've got going there!

What would they be reconnoitering out in the middle an area of sea we have plastered with AWACS, JSTARS and surveillance satellites? We can see a thousand times more from space than we can from 2 tiny little RIBs that are about 14inches above sea level.

Quote:
I dont see them being released any time soon.


That, at least, I agree with.
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G
The Voice of Reason



Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 08:46 - 02 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mister James wrote:

What would they be reconnoitering out in the middle an area of sea we have plastered with AWACS, JSTARS and surveillance satellites? We can see a thousand times more from space than we can from 2 tiny little RIBs that are about 14inches above sea level.

Yet we can't detect gunboats approaching our aforementioned RIBs in what, we are told, is 'our' waters?
Seems like those RIBs may have some intelligence gathering uses after all Smile.
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Mister James
I want to believe!



Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 08:54 - 02 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
G wrote:

Yet we can't detect gunboats approaching our aforementioned RIBs in what, we are told, is 'our' waters?


From what I gather, they were concealed by the clutter afforded by dozens of small vessels in the Iranian waters. Once they broke cover and accelerated towards our troops, there would not have been much time to react, as patrol boats wouldn't take long to chew up the 1.7nm between the Iranian border and the RN position.

The decision to stand down the Lynx that was providing over-watch was, however, a rather foolish one.

Quote:

Seems like those RIBs may have some intelligence gathering uses after all Smile.


Sacrificing 15 marines and sailors to confirm an ECR on a handful of Iranian patrol boats is a little drastic! Wink
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craigie b
Citizen Smith



Joined: 26 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 00:11 - 04 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Regarding the US.........


https://in.news.yahoo.com/070327/43/6dsg0.html
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Mr.Everready
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Joined: 28 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: 15:51 - 04 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said he has pardoned and will free the 15 British naval personnel held by Iran as a "gift to Britain".

(Advertisement)
At a news conference in Tehran, he also theatrically awarded medals to the coastguards he said had captured the sailors and marines.

A Downing Street spokeswoman said: "We welcome what the President has said about the release of our 15 personnel. We are now establishing exactly what this means in terms of the method and timing of their release."

Mr Ahmadinejad said his government would release the detained 15 British sailors and marines promptly.

An Iranian official in London later said the sailors would be handed over to British diplomats and that it would then be up to the Foreign Office to decide how they would return home.

Mr Ahmadinejad said he had pardoned the sailors as a gift to the British people and to mark the birthday of Islam's Prophet Mohammed and Easter.

Earlier, Mr Ahmadinejad said Iran would never accept trespassing of its territorial waters.

"On behalf of the great Iranian people, I would like to thank the Iranian coastguard for courageously defending our Iranian territorial waters," the president added.

He then pinned medals on the chests of three coastguard officers.

The news conference was being eagerly watched both in Whitehall and by the families of the sailors and marines in their home ports. They were captured after boarding an Indian merchantman in what the UK has insisted were Iraqi territorial waters 13 days ago.
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cestrian
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Joined: 24 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 16:11 - 04 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Seems like Iran won that propoganda war then.
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killa
Won't Shut Up



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: 16:47 - 04 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow, we look lame....

Nuke the fu*kers
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craigie b
Citizen Smith



Joined: 26 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 01:15 - 06 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
I just gleamed some very interesting points from the British Army Forum....... Namely the following....

The border between Iran and Iraq was defined by by the British. Iran and Iraq never entered into discussions to clearly define their borders so it is possible we strayed into what the Iranians considered their waters.

Quote:
Before the spin doctors could get to him, Commodore Lambert said:

"There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they were in Iraqi territorial waters. Equally, the Iranians may well claim that they were in their territorial waters. The extent and definition of territorial waters in this part of the world is very complicated".

The British Government has published a map showing the coordinates of the incident, well within an Iran/Iraq maritime border. The mainstream media and even the blogosphere has bought this hook, line and sinker.

But there are two colossal problems.

A) The Iran/Iraq maritime boundary shown on the British government map does not exist. It has been drawn up by the British Government. Only Iraq and Iran can agree their bilateral boundary, and they never have done this in the Gulf, only inside the Shatt because there it is the land border too. This published boundary is a fake with no legal force.

B) Accepting the British coordinates for the position of both HMS Cornwall and the incident, both were closer to Iranian land than Iraqi land. Go on, print out the map and measure it. Which underlines the point that the British produced border is not a reliable one.


https://www.atlanticfreepress.com/content/view/1276/81/

So it may have been a case of both sides being right Question Whats your take on this MJ?

Another interesting piece of food for thought is this....Some yanks have been sugesting their marines code of conduct would have meant every man would have fought and died in a blaze of glory...

Quote:
I
I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

II

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

III

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

IV

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

V

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

VI

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.


Now, at present, we are not at war with Iran. In fact we are trying to build lines of communication with them. Our people we're arrested for alledgedly straying into foreign waters. Since we are not at war with Iran they are not POW's, instead civil prisoners who illegally entered Iranian waters (alledgedly Wink). On the face of things it seems the marines did the right thing and gave themselves up.

Further more, by going along with their captors (even if it did leave us looking lame) they managed to achieve release in two weeks which would have been nigh on impossible had they fought till the end.

As bad as I feel the Iranians have made us look, the incident may actually have been a good thing. It has oppened up diplomatic channels between us and Iran and may be a conduit that the US can use to communicate with Tehran.

Just some points I thought I would share.
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pwntifex
World Chat Champion



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: 05:05 - 06 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
craigie b wrote:

Another interesting piece of food for thought is this....Some yanks have been sugesting their marines code of conduct would have meant every man would have fought and died in a blaze of glory...

That is because US Marines are trained to be no more than drones.
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Dan 4RR
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Joined: 02 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: 14:17 - 06 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
I thought the sun headline was quite amusing, "I went to Iran and all I got was this lousy suit" Laughing
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 17:32 - 06 Apr 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote
What'd you know... it'd seem they weren't treated quite a nicely as Iran would like us to think. Rolling Eyes
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6533069.stm
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6533287.stm
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 17 years, 30 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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