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| lozzypop1 |
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lozzypop1
Certified MILF!
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 Posted: 13:33 - 07 May 2007  Post subject: Bullying - a discussion |
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[edit=g]
For some time I’ve been thinking about posting an ‘internet bullying’ thread. However I haven’t really had the time to deal with the subsequent fallout.
I don’t now, but as I’ll be away for a few days, I won’t have to deal with the fall out  .
So I have moved the post she posted in several places to create a 'standalone' discussion in a more appropriate place.
[/edit]
Internet bullying is wrong.
Example after example has been displayed on this forum for a long time and quite frankly it's sickening.
If anyone deems what I am saying as unreasonable, and the actions of these people as acceptable, then where are we going? I mean this in a larger scale, has the world come to this already?
The term witch-hunt has been used completely out of context so often, yet people continue to believe it is ok to start them. Are we going to return to the dark ages, ripping communities and families apart just because someone for whatever reason doesn't conform to what they deem normal??
Thread after thread has been sent to F&FWs for what reason other than to sweep the situation under the carpet.
Out of sight out of mind perhaps?
Mods have been made aware of arising situations, in the hope of stopping them being completely blown out of proportion as is so often the case on BCF. Yet do nothing, often refusing to step in before someone gets hurt, by which point it is too late.
Others have tried a more direct approach by making their views known publicly, that they are not willing to put up with this blatant bullying anymore. That it is wrong for the members to be instigating the 'mob mentality' with their lies and stirring. Yet for their efforts these members are labelled troublemakers or vigilantes (for want of better terms.)
I am going to repost this again and again. These are my views and I don't believe anyone has the right to tell me that they are wrong. I am revolted by some of the attitudes displayed on BCF lately, and if Korn see's fit to ban me for having an opinion and a higher moral code than some of the ignorant, abusive members, then I wouldn't want to be part of the BCF community anyway.
I truly am disgusted.
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G
The Voice of Reason
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Posted: 20:28 - 07 May 2007  Post subject: |
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Another very long post from me, as it's got mangled up with all the recent events. I suggest that you skip the post and possibly the whole thread if you don't have the time/inclination to read an essay.
This may not be quite the way that Lozzy was hoping her above post would go.
I personally think the term ‘bullying’ is much overused, often completely out of context to the way I see it.
This is the issue that my post will focus on, though slightly different to Lozzy's hopefully it will provoke some interesting, civilised and reasoned debate  .
Ok, it may seem rather pedantic, but I think it's very important we know what's being discussed; why should be come apparent later on.
My view on the definition:
For me bullying is:
a) The systematic persecution of someone regardless of their actions.
b) Forcing someone to do things against their will by physical means.
So it wouldn't include being annoyed at some one and responding to that annoyance on an individual basis.
Nor making nasty comments on one topic.
For me it is the continued and intentional persecution of an individual or group with no regards to the other individuals behaviour.
Anything else, I personally just consider ‘being nasty’ and not specifically bullying – which I personally think should have a tighter definition
This is not the dictionary definition:
| Oxford Dictionary wrote: | bully1
• noun (pl. bullies) a person who deliberately intimidates or persecutes those who are weaker |
| Chambers Dictionary wrote: | bully1 noun (bullies) a person who hurts, frightens or torments weaker or smaller people. verb (bullied, bullying) 1 to act like a bully towards someone; to threaten or persecute them. 2 (usually bully someone into something) to force them to do something they do not want to do. adj, exclamation, dated colloq excellent; very good. bullying noun. bully for you! colloq, now usually ironic good for you! well done! |
| Wikitioary wrote: | bully (countable and uncountable; plural bullies)
1. A person who is cruel to others, especially those who are weaker or have less power |
These do seem to cover pretty much any kind of 'nastiness'.
That being the case, it's rather irrelevant saying your against 'bullying' specifically, rather than against any kind of nastiness, or perceived nastiness against anyone.
I was amused by a "cut out bullying" poster I saw in another company. What they considered bullying included the general banter that's gone on in every job I've worked in.
Not only would my whole department get 'done', but everyone could probably also be done for 'bullying' themselves by the definitions posted; as most of us are also quite happy to say defamatory or embarrassing things about ourselves as well.
I can just see Nelson from the Simpson's punching himself "Stop bullying yourself, (thwap) Stop bullying yourself."
A fairly young person with little experience of the world joined our team and he often became the butt of jokes to start with. Initially this did distress him a bit too much and I did wonder about having a word with the manager (who was probably the worst person doing it). However in the long term I'm glad for him it did happen; he has quickly gained a much thicker skin and from this does seem to cope with life a bit better; he's definitely happy to participate and include himself in jokes etc.
If you can cope with people taking the piss about something that's not serious, it's a start to coping with some the a lot more serious situations that life may throw at you.
Whether things said in jest should be considered bullying is another.
Personally, I think 99.9% of the times not.
Bullying on BCF
From the first bit of my above definition of bullying (by nature, we're likely to get even less of the second), I would say very little bullying goes on BCF.
In many cases people are nasty to others, but the majority of the time this is as a reaction to the victim's posts, rather than targeted with out cause.
Alternatively people are basically just 'being nasty', because they can, because they like it or whatever; however not in a systematic or particularly targeted manner.
What was said to Molly recently can definitely be viewed in a very offensive light. But we weren't, that I'm aware, talking about someone that set out specifically to continually target a known individual. The fact that this was someone previously unknown and the person in the spot light as the instigator of the nastiness later apologised seems to suggest it was just someone being a bit nasty, as many on this forum have done.
To me this doesn't tick the 'bullying' boxes, however despicable it may be.
Personally, I see what has happened to Hotdog after seems much closer to bullying. Ok his 'happy threads' may not be too everyone's tastes, but this was, I believe, what it was suggested he be posting.
Despite the fact that he has apologised and his apology has been accepted quite a few members have used these threads to at times put forward some very personal insults across, despite the fact he has changed the behaviour which they were previously criticising.
The continued behaviour against someone who is not doing anything they dislike seems a bit hypocritical to me. I know a lot of people don't like what he has said in the past, maybe they don't like what he's posting now; but that doesn't seem to excuse some of the posts I've seen.
Similarly, I'd suggest that the treatment Jamie Stokes received, which also created a lot of controversy; should not really be considered bullying. Rarely was he targeted when he was not acting in a manner that annoyed people - in fact the same people that were criticised for 'bullying' could be seen commending him when he took time to write a good post.
By a lot of the definitions of bully that I've heard, every time someone mentions a 98R1 they are in fact bullying Colin.
I doubt anyone's actually think "I know I can make Colin feel bad by saying this" however; it's a fact of life that some things said are going to hurt others.
Bullying Bullies
Oh, but it's ok to 'bully' such and such because he bullied who ever first.
Personally, I think this just leads to worse and worse confrontation and offence which is entirely unnecessary if people can stand bike and act in a reasonable manner.
How many people have actually been convinced that they are wrong by someone else using a lot of personally offensive naughty words?
Personally, I generally think that when people have to resort to swearing, never mind personal insults that it suggests they can't really think of a decent argument. I appreciate for many people this is a 'normal' way of doing business. However I'd suggest such people should at least be considering the "he who is with out sin shall cast the first stone" line when they're criticising others for just this behaviour.
I think it's a very poor excuse to claim it's ok to be nasty to someone just because they've been nasty in the past. Most definitely a case of leading by example - if you can't do it yourself, then how do you expect others to do it?
So what do I think should be done on BCF?
Bullying
By my definition above, I would definitely agree this should be stopped where possible.
Of course, being me, I'd suggest this is done with reasoned debate explaining why you think what the other user is doing should be stopped, rather than participating in a swearing match.
General Nastiness
Here it gets rather more complicated.
I would very much like people to avoid being intentionally nasty to people and think it'd be kinda nice if people took a bit of time to think before they press submit.
After that, where you draw the 'line' for what is nasty is going to vary massively.
For instance some on the forum would seem to find jokes about raping and torturing black women the height of comedy. I do not and find them quite offensive my self.
Ones person's "friendly banter" may be another person's deeply distressing personal comment.
It's rather hard to regulate such situations without knowing the people involved.
I think most people on this forum have been nasty to someone else at some time or another, so saying "ban everyone's that's nasty" isn't really going to work.
I would definitely agree that it's best to get to know people before being too upfront about anything.
Sadly there are always going to be some people who either want to cause trouble or will cause offence unintentionally when trying to speak in jest.
So, to conclude:
I don't think you can just say "Lets cut out all internet bullying".
For me I think that's a fairly ridiculous suggestion in relation to what a lot of people view as 'bullying'.
By the dictionary definitions this would probably prevent about 60% of posts on this forum.
After that, this leaves the question of where to draw the line, which is always going to be contentious.
The only real solution I can see is again for people to post calm and reasoned posts in reply to those they don't like.
This is all (including below), of course my own personal opinion and not one that represents BCF,
also, as a moderator, I'd also like to say:
Please don't 'spam' other people's threads with the same post to get your point across. Start your own thread.
The multiple copes of Lozzy's post have been deleted for this reason.
You will not get banned for having an opinion. You may get banned for spamming that opinion at every available opportunity.
As of course you may if you regularly express that opinion in a vulgar, offensive or factually incorrect way.
Put a link in your sig if you want more people to see it.
When requested I will look at a thread and will make my own mind up about what actions I want to take if any. This may not be consistent with the actions you wanted. I will try and take a balanced objective view of the situation. Again, my conclusions may not agree with yours.
In this case I did twice take action on the initial threads off my own back as such. As have other mods in regards to other threads.
Threads are moved or split to F&FW to make it clear that the posts are not considered acceptable and to encourage people not to continue posting in the threads. This is not done to 'cover up' the problem and I wouldn't be posting a link to the split bits if this was the case.
Wherever possible I will try and avoid deleting posts and threads as this tends to lead to the same issues being replicated.
Put your views across in a civilised and controlled manner and your posts and threads will not be moved. Using abusive, personally derogatory terms and language will see threads getting moved and split. So if you want your point to stand, keep it clean.
People on this forum do and probably will tell you your views are wrong. Providing you and they manage to do this in a 'civilised' manner, there should not be a problem with it. |
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JonB
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Luke_Retrofly
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Posted: 21:03 - 07 May 2007  Post subject: |
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I won't say anything more, other than I highly agree with G's post
Luke
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silky666
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plugger147
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plugger147
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G
The Voice of Reason
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Ariel Badger
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| Posted: 21:38 - 07 May 2007 Post subject: |
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I find what is called "bullying" on here to be rather mild for internet standards.
I use a Russian based political forum https://engforum.pravda.ru/ this was until a year ago mostly unmoderated. Pravda is an unpleasant place where racist and genocidal views are openly flaunted, the only real rule was " No repeated death threats. Why do people use such a forum?
The extremists of course want to air their views but most users just like a fight. You finish work, you are tired out, you log in and spend a hour calling a stranger a mofo. It is cathartic, we do not use the forum to make friends (although of course we do) we use it to let go some emotions.
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sickpup
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| Posted: 21:53 - 07 May 2007 Post subject: |
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| plugger147 wrote: |
If somebodies taking the piss and they are told to stop doing it because it's causing hurt then they should be classed as a bully and this should include people who are genuinely having a laugh. If somebody tells them to stop ( in a serious manner not taking the piss back) then they should realise that they are causing offence and back off.
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Then its a pity no MOD did then even though I asked them to. This left the option for people like me, Lozzypop1, Bazza, Hetzer, Joe, Yourself, Ram_doom, TobyR and no doubt others that I have forgotten to mention (meaning no disrespect) to step in or leave it so the bullied member had to fight it all alone. Now we are faced with G calling us bullies as we wouldn't back down.
G you disgust me, your behaviour towards people who did stand up and entered the argument on someone elses behalf that only one of the mentioned people even knew is at best despicable, how you even sleep at night I don't know. What you completely fail to grasp is that we didn't even know Molly, we just knew that something wrong was happening. It could have been your Mother, your sister, any one you knew male or female and we would have stood up and protected them without knowing who they were and you insult us for it.
The upshot of this is that G has continued his harassment of ME that he started a couple of months back in chat but as far as thats concerned its all ok as its him doing it so it can't be bullying as all my views are as shit compared to his and no decent person would ever feel the way I do.
| G wrote: |
Indeed, whether or not I'd consider it bullying, I'd agree that if it's made clear the person in question is offended they should stop and it's fairly nasty to carry on(though this can be sometimes hard to work out if others claim they would be ofended when in some cases they may not).
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G
As it stands I am offended with the way you think of me, the way you talk to me, the way you talk of me (seen a few chat logs) when I'm not there. How many people have to tell you I am not the person you think I am before you realise?
As I am so unhappy with it will you ever stop?
The fact that this has been pointed out to you several times seems to have escaped you.
As for the people who did stand up to be counted I salute you. You are all more than welcome in my home which is about the highest regard I can hold you in. Never let anyone tell you you were wrong in what you did. |
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| MarJay |
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MarJay
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Posted: 21:59 - 07 May 2007  Post subject: |
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I have to say that I don't think what happened to Molly was bullying.
Reprehensible perhaps. Offensive perhaps. But not Bullying.
There have been occasions where I have felt threatened by something or many things which some members have said. However, I never shouted 'bullying' because in the past I have *been* a victim of bullying.
In my experience, the real bullying comes from people that claim to be your friend or claim to be just 'having a laugh'.
In a way I find it much easier to deal with people who are openly offensive than I do to deal with the continual ribbing. I agree wholeheartedly with G's post, and I agree that if anyone on this forum has been bullied then Colin1 would be an example of it.
With the whole '98 R1 stuff and the worse stuff that I remember, the systematic and continual ribbing is more bullying than anything else. However, if Colin1 took offense I'm sure we would know.
Similarly there have been systematic <username> bashing sessions including Killa as another example. Killa did take offense, however the behaviour stopped and so not a great deal happened afterward.
The difficulty here is people want a free forum where people can say what they like without being stomped on by a mod, and yet they want a forum where no one can be offensive to one another. Life isn't like that, and so the forum can't be either I'm afraid.
Unfortunately there are bullies. There are also people who abhor bullies. There are people who will stand up for the victim, and there are people who will join in. As in life.
Usually in life conversations and ribbing don't get moved to fights and flame wars by some being (well, its never happened to me!  ) and so people should learn to have a thick skin.
I'd be very surprised if Molly doesn't have a thick skin. That said, I do think in some cases people shouldn't /need/ to develop a thick skin, however life sometimes requires it.
As people have previously said, the worst of what happens on here I class as mildly offensive. Abhorrent maybe, disgusting perhaps but still mild in comparison to some things I have heard and experienced in the real world.
And at the end of the day, its an internet forum, it shouldn't be taken too seriously. That means you shouldn't be serious enough to offend people, but equally you shouldn't take it seriously enough to /be/ offended IMO. Moving stuff to fights and flame wars and setting people to 'enemy' should be enough punishment for the people causing offense. Particularly if these people choose to apologise, whether or not you happen to think its sincere.
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Ichy
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| Posted: 22:36 - 07 May 2007 Post subject: |
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You have to wonder how some cope with the real world?
In reality I've had guns pointed at me, been stabbed several times, and had numerous fights. Now those are generally situations that I couldn't get out of and they physically hurt and/or create stress. Irrespective of the consequences I refuse to be a victim, there's already too many of them out there, and the numbers are growing.
The internet is not, yet, real. On the 'net people have typed bad things about me, I doubt if I could remember any of them. They simply don't have any significance and this is why I rarely get into any form of argument. Many of the posts on forums are created by persona's simply because they are pretty much anonymous. Its this anonymity that allows lesser individuals to abuse and threaten others without any risk of ending up on their backside. If you find something offensive, then, 90% of the time, you can guarantee that they was the sole intention of the poster and they are just waiting for someone to bite. |
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lozzypop1
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pa_broon74
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Posted: 00:36 - 08 May 2007  Post subject: |
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Bullying is hard to quantify because its existence depends upon a; intent of the person giving and b; the reaction and feelings of the person receiving.
Since both are almost impossible to confirm, especially in this medium, its hard to say just what bullying is in the context of a chat room.
In this case its complicated by the notion that those who have chosen to defend the recipient (I refrain from using the term victim) have decided that it is in fact bullying.
My question would be: How do you know this since (if we use the reasoning above) it depends on how Molly feels? And if you still maintain that it is bullying, given that an apology has been issued and accepted, are you not perpetuating the very thing you claim to condemn?
Furthermore, if the apology was accepted would that not suggest that while molly may have been upset at the time this is no longer the case so further comment upon what went on can only prolong her discomfiture?
This is an open chat room, evidenced by the fact that a total stranger can come on and comment upon things that have nothing to do with them (i.e. Me  ) With this in mind, it may not be for the faint hearted.
I would agree with:
| Quote: | The trouble nowadays is that everyone is offended by everything.
You cant have any banter without someone taking offence. |
Ironically, the recipient in this case seems to have moved on yet those that chose to defend her have not. Would it not now be wise to move on? At best someone gets banned then logs back under a pseudonym, at worst the thread gets moved to F&FW's.
Moving on seems the only realistic option to me. Mind you, I'm a perfect stranger, and in the best traditions of IRC you can choose to; at best ignore me or, at worst tell me I'm an opionated git. 
Either way, its only a message board and my virtual shoulders are broad...
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| binge |
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binge
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| Posted: 07:35 - 08 May 2007 Post subject: |
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Not really read the entire thread because its too long winded and repetitive.
All I can say really is that its a Forum. Everybody gets off on the same Foot. Of course your going to have your piss takers on here, Every forum has them. If it gets to a point where you don't like being here, Theres a "X" up there. Press it. There are plenty more forums around.
OR theres a whole world of real people outside your front door!
Cant believe people can get so serious on a freaking internet forum.
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Kwaks
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| Posted: 08:35 - 08 May 2007 Post subject: |
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Unfortunately there are people in life and on the internet who are ignorant and afraid of those who are a bit different, either through choice or circumstance.
I must commend some of those who stood up and put their views accross to show the comments were unacceptable in the most recent case, and it put the original perpetrators onto the back foot as it was turned around on them.
Possibly time to let it rest, as I am sure those who made spiteful and hurtful comments to the newer member have been given some of their own medicine back.
Wont mention names as this thread would probably end up at the foot of the forum with all the rest, but I'm sure we all know the main participants.
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killa
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Posted: 09:12 - 08 May 2007  Post subject: |
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| G wrote: | Ok, it may seem rather pedantic, but I think it's very important we know what's being discussed; why should be come apparent later on.
My view on the definition:
For me bullying is:
a) The systematic persecution of someone regardless of their actions.
b) Forcing someone to do things against their will by physical means. |
I’ve now read through the posts which I have tried to avoid since reading of the content included..…….I think there are some real spineless div’s on here and quite shocked at some members posts who think they really aren’t being that unfair.
Hotdog posts guff 24/7 on this forum, more bullshit then I care to remind us all about, I don’t quite fully understand why he is now posting nicey nicey posts……….and why this is all ok now………..could someone explain?
I read through the drivel expelled on both sides buy the people defending a lady who is being victimised and hurt…...emotionally, and the bullies who were on the attack.
Here are a few things that caught my eye.
| colin1 wrote: | This forum may not be a good place to hang out when you are such an easy target and ppl are targeted for much less than lieing about their gender
Either that or develop a tough skin |
Eh?
| Hotdog wrote: | Firstly, I'm disgusted that so many sad c*nts can get together.
I know this will upset Molly, but she looks like a bloke (IMHO) and no amount of bullying by you faggots or political correctness gone mad will change that fact.
If you hate me, fine, but be an adult and don't use Molly as a bandwagon to victimise others.
Molly is a new member whose picture aroused questions about her claimed gender. |
| G wrote: | Bullying on BCF
I would say very little bullying goes on BCF.
In many cases people are nasty to others, but the majority of the time this is as a reaction to the victim's posts, rather than targeted with out cause. |
I fully understand that I can carry on calling you a dick head G if I want to, because as we all know, you rile some people with your rather warped mentality of forum banter/abuse/bullying.
I think you talk guff most of the time and your custom title is something we all snigger at sometimes. It’s a known thing on the board that you have these sort of views, you’ve had the finger pointed at you more than once for the bullshit that are known as the mods……..I don’t care…..I’m not going anywhere, I can’t be banned for being a bit nasty towards you. I’m sure this is because I’m not being personal…....I hope, I mean……perhaps you aren’t quite like this outside of the forum, I don’t know……
When you had you threw a wobbly over the Siggi thing, a lot of people were involved on both sides of the ‘nastiness’. IMO it was exchanges of nasty words, not really offensive……...someone took offence though and he was banned. People wanted him back, but it wasn’t a majority vote. From my side of things very little was nasty in a personal way, yet he was taken off the forum.
So then you compare this sort of thing with…….
| G wrote: | By a lot of the definitions of bully that I've heard, every time someone mentions a 98R1 they are in fact bullying Colin.
I doubt anyone's actually think "I know I can make Colin feel bad by saying this" however; it's a fact of life that some things said are going to hurt others. |
I don’t know whether to laugh at this, down rate, call you names…....if this is how you compare this to recent abuse fired at Molly then you shouldn’t have the mod title. Using an example from one of the abusers is also rather stupid.
| G wrote: | Oh, but it's ok to 'bully' such and such because he bullied who ever first.
How many people have actually been convinced that they are wrong by someone else using a lot of personally offensive naughty words? |
On the internet you can’t be taken into a room and told straight that your being a twat, it has to be put across in posts unfortunately.
If you get called up on bullying, you might apologise, you might change you ways for the better, you might realise you’ve been a cock. This helps if there is more than one person letting you know.
| G wrote: | General Nastiness
Here it gets rather more complicated. |
No it doesn’t….
General nastiness for example is like when I make a post about my MC’ing.
Some people will call me chav, nasty names, but I know it’s not true, I am ok with his……it does get really annoying, but some people choose to make themselves known at every opportunity.
That’s a bit of general nastiness, I don’t think the matter we’re talking about is quite the same.
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| JonB |
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JonB
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| Posted: 09:20 - 08 May 2007 Post subject: |
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| killa wrote: |
No it doesn’t….
General nastiness for example is like when I make a post about my MC’ing.
Some people will call me chav, nasty names, but I know it’s not true, I am ok with his……it does get really annoying, but some people choose to make themselves known at every opportunity.
That’s a bit of general nastiness, I don’t think the matter we’re talking about is quite the same. |
Perhaps the reason why Molly's example of "bullying" was more sickening was that it was unmitigated and perhaps she didn't deserve to be knocked down at the first post like that.
General nastiness between me, you, Shaun and Suzuki is a case of you get what you give, we all gave a lot, but we also got a lot of back, it did go past the point of "banter", but i'm pretty sure none of us was mentally scarred from this period on the forum.
However, my general thoughts is that some of the staunt opposer's to Molly's treatment began to make themselves look just as bad when they started interfering with any thread posted by Hotdog. It then began to look like a personal vendetta and once threats of violence were being used, they looked /worse/ than Hotdog as violence is rarely the answer, although in fairness Joe only said that he wanted to have a chat, but I got the impression from some other members that they were quite up for clouting someone for comments made on a forum.
That's the point they began to look worse than Hotdog.
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| Shaun |
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Shaun
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| Posted: 09:36 - 08 May 2007 Post subject: |
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I agree with Killa. 
The attacks made on Molly can not be compared to the '98 R1 joke, being laughed at for something that you said is completely different to being called names because of a personal circumstance. I'm always one of the first people to start making jokes but even I have the common sense to know when something isn't fair or is over stepping the mark.
Taking the piss out of Killa for his MC'ing, fair, taking the piss out of Killa because his girlfriend was thinking of leaving him, not fair. Two examples there which when looked at it's not hard to understand why one is banter and why one would just be fucking nasty.
When hotdog and Luke decided to take the piss out of Molly for no reason at all they were over stepping the mark immediately, when they realised they had done they both quit it immediately, you have to give them credit for that. What shocks me though is Colin thought it was ok to carry on about it, even when it was made clearly that Molly had been genuinely upset by what was said, he still carried on, that was bullying.
Oh and Loz what do you hope to achieve by reposting this again and again other than bringing up the whole Molly thing over and over again, do you really think she wants it dragged up every ten minutes? Just a thought. |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 18 years, 283 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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