And the West is the problem in Africa.

[Hetzer]

[killa]

[Shay HTFC]

Wait.. you're saying that being threatened by machete wielding maniacs is a crime, or a reason to be forgotten about?

The attitude you show is that we should just ignore them because they are too much effort and what we put in is not reflected by the results.

Well you could apply that to anything! Don't bother with support in poor parts of the country, they'll continue to have gang fights.
Don't bother with NHS for bikers - They'll continue to ride fast and crash.

You sound like a typical tory voter, more interested in increasing his slice of the pie than helping anyone else.

Do you also tell off kids who kick their ball into your yard. After all, they don't offer you anything (like Nigerians you say) and waste your time and effort.

[killa]

I must admit seeing African children dancing around a well that the Americans supplied for water is always heart warming.
It’s a tough one because you’re simplifying the argument to empathy for the human race. There are masses of people in Africa as we can see on our TV screens that deem most if not all of our physical and financial efforts worthless.
Defend an argument for shovelling aid over there for legitimate reasons and I’ll listen.
____________________
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
Bike:- Yamaha TRX850 | Killas Biking History | Killas Gaming History | Killas autmotive history

[Shay HTFC]

Its true. It comes entirely down to empathy. There is no economic advantage to supplying aid - At least not for the foreseeable future.

But sometimes you can't just sit there with your expensive stuff whilst others are out there dying when they could be helped.

Its just compassion - at least thats what you'd hope, but power corrupts... and thats what we see so often with regards to the leaders of these countries.

[Mister James]

I think that those who feel genuine compassion are mostly out there doing reasonably helpful things for the Africans. Most of the rest of us give because we feel we should, or because we feel guilty and a quick donation allows us to return home and enjoy our LCD TV's and takeaways in peace.

I have to say, since I started working with African immigrants my sympathy has almost totally eroded. Somewhere in the back of my cynical and self-centred mind I know that there are millions of innocent vulnerable people on the dark continent - but after daily exposure to the arrogant, violent, dishonest and selfish nature of most African cultures, I find it a struggle to care.

A lot of people say that I am encountering people at a stressful time in their lives, and so shouldn't take it all too seriously - I would counter that by saying that when we are under pressure is when we find it impossible to keep up any facade or assumed behaviour, and thus is when people can see the real 'us'.
____________________
>Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you...

[Hetzer]

[Itchy]

[and]

...

[Didge]

[Visitor Q]

https://www.bikechatforums.com/files/n862760693_1416197_5958_116.jpg

Admittedly i am not the fuzziest of empathetic humanitarians at the the best of times, but Africa REALLY fucks me off.

[HIV crap]
Just for you lot i've downloaded the 14meg lecture slides from an old lecture i once had on HIV, on a 2 gig per month download limit. Now thats love.

Of the 40 million or so people living with HIV/AIDS in the world (2004 paper) 25 million of them are in sub saharan africa. Next highest is South/SE Asia with 7.5 million (which is not suprising with a population of 3 billion just in china). However north africa (including middle east) only has 540,000 cases.

But of the 3 million annual deaths, 2.3 million of them are in africa. S/SE asia ~500,000

Again 2004, annual infections estimated ~5 million, 3.1 million sub saharan africa, 900,000 S/SE asia.

By the way HIV has now become a predominantly Heterosexual infection in the UK, new diagnoses doubled since 2000, from ~2000 to 4500 per year, whilst homo has stayed constantly around 2000.
However, of those 4500, 3000 ish are from direct exposure in africa

Hotspots in africa for acquisition of HIV infection are South and South eastern.

Caused by a lentivirus form of retrovirus, which houses Feline Imunnodeficiency Virus, Simian Immunodefiency Virus and HIV types 1 + 2.
However, bare in mind that HIV are zoonotic (ie originated in animals), and humans have been infected with S(imian)IV type 1 (chimpanzee) with first infection recorded ~1935. SIV type 2 (Sooty mangabee) first human infection 1940-1945. Caused by bushmeat (yep, they eat monkeys) and contact with pet monkey secretions (take that as you will) and blood. SIV-1 3 cases recorded in humans, SIV-2 7 cases.

Theory that the oral polio vaccine was linked to the spread of HIV, proved bollocks (sorry, his notes are abit scratchy, he usually narrated the slides mainly).

~13% of northern european descent (and around ~1-2% caucasians) carry a 32 bp deletion preventing the CCR5 receptor intergrating the virus into the macrophage membrane, thus have resistance to the HIV-1 virus.

Initial infection leaves flu like symptoms for a few months (this is why you have to wait 3 months for HIV tests after unprotected sex, giving it time to incubate), then around 7-8 years of clinical well being before AIDS sets in.
Around 10% of patients live with HIV asymptomatically there whole lives. Some however can develop subacute encephalitis causing dementia within months.

Most of the viral production occurs in testis, meaning semen has very high viral load, compared with blood plasma.

Also, just to wind up all you roundheads out there, circumcised males enjoy a 65% lower infection rates in heterosexual sex, since the foreskin provides a main route for infection.
Also herpes and other genital ulcer type diseases have a 4-fold increase in risk of infection, as they provide routes into the plasma.

Sadly though, most of the cases seem to be through vertical transmission (ie acquired from mother), with production of viral particles in mamary glands 11-16% of infections from mother can even be postnatal.
[/HIV crap]


Anyway, enough virology. I just remembered the lecture fondly (he is a particularly talented lecturer) and thought i might aswell let you in on it as i read through it.

As usual, the kind of controls needed to stop transmission are not implemented out of 'human rights'. Enforced circumcision at birth, sterilisation of the infected females and general availability of prophalactics would curb the spread massively. Personally id rather not be born then born with a death sentence and risk of infecting friends, but never mind.
Also as mentioned, the arisal of HIV-1 is linked to the habit of eating chimpanzees, which are similar enough to us to give problems. HIV-2 is on the increase in africa because of SIV-2 crossing, again arising from interactions with monkeys. And if memory serves thats is FAR nastier.
The Africans also have an incredible track record of killing/stealing peoples medication, and splitting the minimum dose between multiple people, condemning them all (TB is a good example). Which is why the West 'cruelly' withheld AIDS treatments for a long time until they knew resistance couldnt arise from buggering up courses, as has happened with all these antibiotic resistant strains of Strep (MRSA, VRSA = X-Antibiotic Resistant Strep. A)

Unfortunately i can see why the West continues to plow money into them. Its a sense of civic duty i suppose, not even arising so much from guilt, as just trying to give them the tools to better themselves. A rudimentary understanding of a disease will tell you how resistence can arise, and how incorrect doses are ineffective. Yet these are completely (in many places) uneducated people, who have lacked the education with which to understand their conditions. It's easy to say 'fuck them' (which is my sentiment), but we can only expect them to make the best of what they have.

The harsh reality of Africa though is it is a desert. Humans originally evolved as a response to the change in climate removing the forests, and africa has been on the decline ever since. Indeed the main reason we spread out was undoubtedly the lack of available resources in Africa, so the mere notion that it can sustain a massive population with fuck all water is bizarre. As mentioned in my other thread, they are in the throws of a local Malthusian Crisis, and no matter how much aid we throw there way we are only buying them time.
What i do pity them for however, is the MASSIVE rampant corruption. Live Aid (1980's) was a prime example, where the money raised actually paid for MORE armed forces, increasing the blockade of food and causing worse famine. Bono had one of the most amazing soundbites when they were promoting the Live8 concert thingy recently when approached with questions along that tact. He said (roughly);

'Yes, 85% of the money raised will go to the government. But 15% will go to the people!!!'

Which is a staggering statement to make in the run up to an event. Displacement of governments just seems to put another greedy tyrant in control, as life is so cheap in Africa the noble candidates never seem to quite make it to office.
Good movies to get a scope of the madness of Africa are Blood Diamond (yes its got Leo Crapeo doing a bad accent, but its pretty thought provoking) and Lord of War (utterly fantastic however you look at it), although they might be said to be sensationalist.

Also, although an outsider can look upon africa as being technologically stunted, this is more from economy then anything else. Where areas have had cash injected they have some pretty nifty stuff kicking about. For instance that hydroelectric dam firing the Aluminium plant paid for by a company, giving wage earning jobs etc (although i remember there was something interesting about that, be it economic or political) in return for massive future profits im sure. Technology is no longer a national commodity, and is available to whoever can afford it. Africa simply cannot.

I suppose my empathy for africa completely dissolved after seeing the depictions of child soldiers in the two above films, or rather the rationalisation of using them as meat shields by weak mean greedy for power. Whilst you can argue they have many shortcomings that limit there ability to grow culturally in line with EVERY other culture on earth, i still struggle to see how we can continue to condone this with supply of aid. Innocents are trapped in all conflicts, but countries are judged by the ethos of the people as a whole. After we stood by and left Mugabe to displace all the white farmers from Zimbabwe after we had tried to put in place ratial equality i feel it is a lost cause.
Pull out, let them continue to do what they do best. Starve, breed more mouths to exacerbate the famine, act as reservoirs for the modern scourges of the civilised world, kill each other in pointless power struggles and fight over there natural resources. We must remember, the Western world's greed (or should that be the Western world's greedy women) drive their fruitful diamond and gold mining economy. We get a hell of a lot of the raw ingredients (ie ores) for many of our materials. Despite the conflict these cause, we are injecting plenty of cash into the areas. The distribution of this injection is down to their own governments, not ours.
If our internal affairs were all rosy, and we had money bouncing about in the bank gathering interest i'd be more inclined to say fuck it, why not piss our money away on a fruitless cause to alleviate some of the guilt from our comparative oppulence. But when the budgets continuously plugged by tax raises (in all their forms, petrol and fag prices compared to ANY of country for a start) in excess of inflation, yet still offering a lower standard of education, welfare and health then previous years I consider it an affront. Just like i find all our other 'peacekeeping' missions, and oil secur... i mean democracy installing support to america.
Yes it's sad, some people dont get the vote. Some people get mown down in cold blood in ceaseless wars and civic unrest. But is it really our concern?
Situations like this are very different to 1914 and 1939 by the way, before you point that one out. A) We were allies B) We were threatened by total war in the foreseeable future which only prompt resolution could stop, before the germans gained inertia.
Africa has had aid poured into it from the empirial days, and no lingering guilt about the slave trade smoothes over the fact that they are still no more advanced then when we began. Call me a racialist if you will, but perhaps they really are destined to carry on like this as this is all they know and can do.

Anyway, i'm off to do some actual work after that rambling diversion. Sorry if its completely illegible.
Basically;
- Leave them to it Smile and wave as they self destruct.
____________________
China traffic/travel bike vid - When I make a sweeping statement, please add the word 'statistically' in to the sentence before you bitch...
From September 2014 to January/February 2015 I will not be using any English, nor reading any. As such, I won't be on here. PM at will, but I won't be checking/posting unless in emergencies. Certainly not for the first couple of months. Please berate me savagely if I break that rule...

[Kris]

[killa]

Interesting read Bonny, thanks

It's 2007 FFS, we know why Africans live in tin huts still, it's not because we haven't given them enough food and money and it's not because they don't have much rain.

Comic relief always pipe up about 'the truth' when really they're taking us for mugs. Truth is, money won't help for a better future, it will just prolong an almost pointless existance.

I do have sympathy for the innocent people who wander around farming what little they can but telling the general public of the UK isn't my idea of helping. It's always the little guy that gets fucked over, both there and here.
There are countless amounts of the population here alone who are on wages you can only dream of and still we're asked to donate money to people we only know of because of slow moving montages with R.E.M playing in the background.
____________________
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
Bike:- Yamaha TRX850 | Killas Biking History | Killas Gaming History | Killas autmotive history

[Didge]

[Skudd]

You have to think though. when all th oil has run out and we have been flooded out, those poor little Africans in their tin roofed mud huts will be laughing their arses off because they will still be living the same way as they have always done. We on the other hand will live in over populated little island that can't sustain itself because we can only import food and not grow it for our selves anymore. we will not have any health care and we will be the starving ones. Will they give us some help? Will they fuck!!!
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Famous last words of Humpty Dumpty. " Stop pushing me "
Petty Anarchists look at "1984".............. The Visionary looks at "Animal Farm".

[JonB]

[Mister James]

Definitely worth a read if - like me - you tire of sensationalist gibberings from the conspiracy nuts:

Lies, damn lies and 'counterknowledge'

By Damian Thompson

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=W243AVHVBMOPPQFIQMFSFF4AVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2008/01/12/nrfact112.xml&page=1
____________________
>Soultrader Mister James, I bet you are a copper
>Bazza Wow. Eyes like a shithouse rat, you...

[Irezumi aka Reuben]

Most African's are probably quite decent people who are just trying to scrape a living, though I will agree that many countries seem to bring up they're young to what can best be described as opportunists (Nigeria is a prime example).

They get screwed by the leaders and large corporations, mining and oil companies in the main I'd imagine and the few make good whilst the majority suffer.

Exactly the same as the rest of the world except countries like the UK don't have to worry so much about being shot and/or raped etc.

Same shit different scenery.

[killa]

[Didge]

[tatters]

[Walloper]

Africa is rich. We need her resources. We only have to deal with the consequences of our plunder.

The civilised nations of the west (Except the French) decide how we divi it up between us all.

Impose martial law in any region we deem subject to exploitation.
Move the human flotsam off the land.
We bring in 'trusted' 'hard working' labour and 'limited' support for them. (No extended family or limitless social support like they expect.) We do it like the old days. You work you get paid No work no pay.

Apartheid...

If you find some are good workers then reward suitably.

We must not get soft with them.... This is most important.

Didn't take me long to solve the problem of Africa then did it?
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W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair