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Hetzer |
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Hetzer Super Spammer
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Fawbish |
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Fawbish World Chat Champion
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Posted: 11:03 - 09 Sep 2008 Post subject: |
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pa_broon74 wrote: | @Fawbish.
I gave an example some time ago (just before Hetz started posting from a motivational poster with the dolphins...)
It involved a dying man in the desert, he finds water. Does he drink it for the pleasure or to survive?
What is his motivation? Is he thinking if I drink that, It'll be pleasureable or is he thinking if I drink that, I'll survive. (The pleasure then being incidental to the main motivation; that being: to survive.)
Hetz skimmed over this earlier, I forget where, I think he was commuing with Blue Whales...
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What will he feel when he has survived the ordeal?
"I survived. I am happy I survived. Otherwise I would not have drunk the water. Also, when parched in the desert, drinking that water felt so good!" Pleasure on both counts, I reckon.
Necessity < Survival < Pleasure ...maybe? *shrugs* ____________________ "Oh....it looks like Average Joe's is forfeiting the match!" - "Yeah, its a risky strategy but lets see if it pays off for 'em Cotton." |
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Hetzer |
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Hetzer Super Spammer
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Posted: 11:05 - 09 Sep 2008 Post subject: |
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pa_broon74 wrote: | Fawbish wrote: | Could anyone cite an example where pleasure is not the motivation at the end? Just want to see if anyone can actually provide something to that end?
Im quite interested in seeing if lots of examples can be boiled down.
Mark? |
I think there is a confusion being made between motivation and conclusion. While the conclusion in many cases (possibly most, but definitely not all) is pleasure, the motivation can be a range of things.
The distinction needs to be made between the two.
Also, I have a problem with use of language and the interpretation there-of. For example (and this is relative to the individual) Relief for me doesn't mean pleasure, it means an absence of trouble, pain or awkwardness.
The same with Satisfaction, it means I'm satisfied with the results, no more and no less. Again an absence of dissatisfaction but no pleasure.
Hetzer can argue against this until he's as blue as Papa Smurf, but since these are my personal views they can no more be disproved or quantified with logic than my hatred for brussel sprouts. Why don't I like the way they taste? I just don't... And so begins the endlessly pejorative and ultimately pointless circular argument of which Keith speaks.
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If a feeling is feel-good it's pleasure.
Satisfaction, relief, solace, many other words, they all denote feel good, which is pleasure.
I don't see how anyone could possibly argue against that. What are the alternatives? They feel bad? They feel nothing?
You barely even have to think about. C'mon! ____________________ "There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!" |
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Kickstart |
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Kickstart The Oracle
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Hetzer |
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Hetzer Super Spammer
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Posted: 11:09 - 09 Sep 2008 Post subject: |
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Fawbish wrote: | pa_broon74 wrote: | @Fawbish.
I gave an example some time ago (just before Hetz started posting from a motivational poster with the dolphins...)
It involved a dying man in the desert, he finds water. Does he drink it for the pleasure or to survive?
What is his motivation? Is he thinking if I drink that, It'll be pleasureable or is he thinking if I drink that, I'll survive. (The pleasure then being incidental to the main motivation; that being: to survive.)
Hetz skimmed over this earlier, I forget where, I think he was commuing with Blue Whales...
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What will he feel when he has survived the ordeal?
"I survived. I am happy I survived. Otherwise I would not have drunk the water. Also, when parched in the desert, drinking that water felt so good!" Pleasure on both counts, I reckon.
Necessity < Survival < Pleasure ...maybe? *shrugs* |
Exactly. Pleasure on more than one level. The pleasure of assuaging the thirst, the pleasure of surviving, the pleasure of having got one over on death (temporarily or otherwise), the pleasure of having been smart enough to go in the direction that led to the discovery of the water (merited or otherwise). ____________________ "There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!" |
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Hetzer |
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Kickstart |
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Kickstart The Oracle
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Hetzer |
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Kickstart |
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Hetzer |
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Hetzer Super Spammer
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Posted: 13:47 - 09 Sep 2008 Post subject: |
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Kickstart wrote: | Hetzer wrote: | Give me an example of an act not motivated by a desire for pleasure.
And while you're at it give all the ones you claim I've ignored. |
Those already mentioned include those motivated by power (which you asume is just a way of gaining pleasure). The situation of putting a pet down, which causes pain and in my position having the cat put down certainly did not reduce that pain. Another example. How about those performing suicidal acts of "bravery" in war. No pleasure when there is essentially a 100% chance of death.
You are also counting out Fawbishs example. You said "I would argue that he was either already mentally abnormal (a functional sociopath) or became abnormal as a result of facing ruin", yet it is still a motivation that affects a human, which counts out your claim of The root motivation of anything a human does is pleasure.
Keith |
Ooh, ooh, a raft of assumptions! You assume power for powr's sake! You assume pain with no gain. Prove it! Do as I did to prove the opposite and give examples.
No, you can't. You lose. Hoisted on your own petard matey.
Fawbish's example...read it again. I mentioned discluding it, but went ahead and encompassed it anyway. Clearly you missed that bit, eh?
Hetzer wrote: | But if he could be described as normal, while doing such a thing ( ) the pleasure would have been denying his creditors their pound of flesh and the world/other people his wife and daughter (possessions). An act of revenge/denial. "Ha! I WIN!"
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Engines out, wheels off, but Keith's riding that bad boy all the way to the ground.
Kickstart wrote: | How about those performing suicidal acts of "bravery" in war. No pleasure when there is essentially a 100% chance of death. |
Yow, more assumptions? From Keith? You assume in every case they knew they were going to die? "100%" eh? How many ways shall I cut that lot to pieces Keith, eh? Shall I not bother and spare you your blushes?
Let's assume they knew. Indulgence of rage (pleasure). Being seen to do the brave thing by comrades (pleasure through ego). Saving comrades' lives (pleasure through satisfaction/relief).
Or whatever. To put it more basically, an advantage is sought, and if achieved = satisfaction (pleasure). It costs the individual his life, and he knew it would? Clearly he already calculated the cost then, but proceeded anyway...seeking an advantage (survival of comrades). Advantage achieved = satisfaction = pleasure. Might not achieve it, but the attempt was motivated by the anticipated pleasure in success.
Advantage sought. If achieved = pleasure. Or maybe you think a person would feel no positive emotion from gaining the advantage they'd sought.
"Oh, but the person's going to be dead, and knows it". Pleasure experienced beforehand from knowing an advantage will be attained, or at least attempted.
I can show pleasure in every act Keith. The only possible defence you could offer, as previously mentioned, is that the pleasure in every/many/some acts is coincidental, but I've already dealt with that. A coincidence cannot be a 100%-occuring event, because if it occurs 100% it can longer be a coincidence, it becomes a rule.
If it's not coincidence what else can it be? Ah yes...the motivation. ____________________ "There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!" |
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Fawbish |
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Fawbish World Chat Champion
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pa_broon74 |
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pa_broon74 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 14:39 - 09 Sep 2008 Post subject: |
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Its the same as the water in the desert anology. Its the difference between motivation and outcome, the motivation isn't pleasure, its just a by-product of the outcome.
In the case of the soldier going off to war, I know exactly what Hetzer will say, nobility or pride begets a feel good factor ergo, pleasure. But the whole premise of his argument is wrong.
Human motivation is not for pleasure, it is to survive. Pleasure is just an outcome of that motivation (Assuming you did in fact survive.) I still maintain (and no one has been able to disprove it.) A man dying of thirst is not driven by the pleasure of drinking water, eh's driven by the fact that if he doesn't, he'll die.
That logic is infallable and it hasn't been refuted or properly disproved by anyone.
The idea that if you're not feeling pleasure you must be feeling pain and vice versa is again, highly subjective and depends on the individual. If this was the case, surely it would mean that you were bipolar.
The human condition isn't black or white or on or off, its all grey. Thats why this argument is so circular, Hezter is trying to 'prove' human behaviour and you just can't do that, its why there are only theories in psychology and no rules. (Unlike physics where you have formalae to explain the world.)
While I agree that much of what a human does is to gain pleasure (a trait unique to humans??) It isn't our main motivation, our reason de etre. That is far more elusive and certainly could never be measured or proven, perhaps if you do that, it'll spell the end of the race...
In terms of the man seeking power for example, do you think a man with power would ever give up looking for more? The outcome of getting that power and all its trappings is undoubtedly pleasure, his motivations on the other hand for seeking it are impossible to predict.
This is where I disagree with Hetzer, its the distinction between Motivation and outcome, they are not the same thing at all.
And as far as I am concerned, no one has adequately refuted the man dying of thirst in the desert thing. It has stood the test to my way of thinking. I don't doubt after he's drunk it, he'll be thinking "golly, that was nice." But as he's approaching it; he can't swallow for the dryness in his throat and the cramps in his gut, can't think properly due to the dehydration, the crippling headaches... Almost able to feel his vital organs shutting down one by one...
He's not thinking, "Hoots mon! I'm going to enjoy this..." He's thinking, "Mummy! I don't want to die like this..." (Much like your soldier going to war I imagine...)
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colin1 |
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colin1 Captain Safety
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Hetzer |
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Hetzer Super Spammer
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Posted: 19:21 - 09 Sep 2008 Post subject: |
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In all the examples above, ask yourselves how the person might feel if he didn't commit the acts. Sense of personal failure? Despair? What's the balance between doing something and not doing it in terms of emotional response? How about the path of least resistance vs possible reward. Best reward for doing it or for not doing it?
In all cases human beings seek the best possible outcome, the best advantage, even where all possible options are bad (the least of all evils). In a worst-case scenario, where the best possible choice is still shit, the end result will be a rationalisation "Well, it could have been worse." Solace, consolation, relief, best of a bad job. Some sense of satisfaction at having handled an impossible situation as well as it could have been handled.
I think you chaps are applying too gross a definition on the idea of 'pleasure'. It's far more subtle than that, even abstract in some cases. But it still comes down to the same fundamental thing, a person will seek the best possible outcome, and if that is achieved it will give some measure of positive feeling, satisfaction, relief. And all of those words are ways of describing pleasure, of quantifying it. ____________________ "There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!" |
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pa_broon74 |
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pa_broon74 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 09:34 - 10 Sep 2008 Post subject: |
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Fawbish wrote: | Dictionary.com says... wrote: | sat·is·fac·tion Audio Help /ˌsætɪsˈfækʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sat-is-fak-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. an act of satisfying; fulfillment; gratification.
2. the state of being satisfied; contentment.
3. the cause or means of being satisfied.
4. confident acceptance of something as satisfactory, dependable, true, etc.
5. reparation or compensation, as for a wrong or injury.
6. the opportunity to redress or right a wrong, as by a duel.
7. payment or discharge, as of a debt or obligation.
8. Ecclesiastical. a. an act of doing penance or making reparation for venial sin.
b. the penance or reparation made.
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[Origin: 1250–1300; < L satisfactiōn- (s. of satisfactiō) a doing enough, equiv. to satisfact(us) (ptp. of satisfacere, equiv. to satis enough + facere to make, do1) + -iōn- -ion; r. ME satisfaccioun < AF < L, as above]
—Related forms
sat·is·fac·tion·al, adjective
sat·is·fac·tion·less, adjective
—Synonyms 2. enjoyment, pleasure, comfort. 5. amends, expiation, atonement, indemnity, indemnification, requital, recompense. 7. repayment, remuneration.
—Antonyms 2. displeasure, discontent. |
Your personal views dont change what has been decided by many to be the meaning of a word.
I see where youre coming from though. |
Using words to describe how a person feels is always going to be a sticky proposition because my idea of satisfied (regardless of what is said on dictionary.com) is always going to be unique to me
Its why philosophers, authors and song writers are in business.
Still, no one has refuted my thirsty man anology... I rather suspect, because you can't.
____________________ Didn't catch anything. |
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Fawbish World Chat Champion
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pa_broon74 |
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pa_broon74 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 10:16 - 10 Sep 2008 Post subject: |
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fawbish wrote: | Right, this is a bastard hard one.
Youre saying that Dying > Drink Water > Survive > BYPRODUCT: Pleasure |
I'd say, dying of thirst > urge to survive > search for water.
If you find it, a by product is pleasure in finally being able to drink. But the urge to surive drove you to it so was there-for your motivation.
If under the circumstance the chap found a glass of warm yak's piss, would he not drink it cause it wouldn't be pleasureable?
fawbish wrote: | What if the by-product is needed to produce the cause? |
I think in some cases it probably is, adrenaline junkies risking there lives for the pleasure of possibly dying.
I think though, instinctively, (wo)man's main reason for being is to survive, everything else is incidental. Even when we don't survive, we've made up a world of make believe so that we can somehow be alive after death...
Religion makes alot of people feel better, but its there because we can't stand the thought of being dead and not surviving in some shape or form.
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pa_broon74 |
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pa_broon74 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 11:46 - 10 Sep 2008 Post subject: |
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I think survival is the most basic of instincts, it needs no 'why' or 'what for.'
Asking what's the 'why' behind surviving is like asking why are we here at all.
If someone was pushing you towards the edge of a building and you knew that with minimal opposite force you could stop yourself from being pushed off, do you: a) Let yourself be pushed off or b) Stop it.
I'll assume you'd do B, but why? Avoidance of pain? Thrill of nearly dying? An affirmation of life?
Ask yourself the same question but assume your being attacked by someone of equal power, so no gaurantees you'll be able to stop it from happening. You do B again, but are the why's still the same?
Mmm... I've got myself shrugging now...
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Fawbish |
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Fawbish World Chat Champion
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Wafer_Thin_Ham |
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Wafer_Thin_Ham Super Spammer
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Posted: 12:21 - 10 Sep 2008 Post subject: |
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I don't think it's about pleasure, it's just genetically hardwired into us to reproduce. Like the way baby turtles immediately leg it to the ocean as soon as they hatch. It's in our dna to want to carry on the species....I think pleasure is more of a by product than the why. ____________________ My Flickr |
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pa_broon74 |
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pa_broon74 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 12:47 - 10 Sep 2008 Post subject: |
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Wafer_Thin_Ham |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 15 years, 282 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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