Will Chinese Bikes ever be the new Jap Bikes?

[bLiXeY]

As you may already tell by even positing this question, I am completely new to bikes.

But not to trends.

I got to thinking that if people in the west who rode British or American bikes in the 50's/60's swore that Japanese bikes where cheap mass produced rubbish (which of course I'm only assuming that many did as I'm not that old)...then it could be argued that over the next 50 years the Chinese bike industry may develop into something similar to the Japanese industrial model of the past 50 years?

Possibility? Or just bollocks?

[fireyphoenix1...]

i recon its possible in the grand scheem of things if its looked after properly they are a good cheap investment
a few of the newer chinese bikes are actually good made of decent metal with good quality finish note i say a FEW
they have a long way to go yet before they can rival any major bike company
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2014 Aprillia dorsoduro 750 factory.

[DrDonnyBrago]

[pepperami]

Ah but what about the bikes they dont sell over here ? .

They already have a 400cc four-stroke triple bike under development.
I believe the engine is from a snow-mobile.
When I can find the link, I will post it?.
They are already doing a few 250`s.
They already have thier foot in the door regarding 125`s.

I`m sure they will improve thier standards to a point where we will consider Chinese bikes ok?

What I want is a bike that is to a certain standard/quality and at least cost to me as possible.
Whether that is Shineray or Honda or Kawasaki or Zongshen or a European bike maker it does`nt matter.
It`s the quality and the back up I get and the price they want that will influence me.

I wish there was a British bike maker that could do it but sadly there is`nt.

The Japs still have things thier way at the moment but there are a good few other bike makers out there now days and I think the Chinese will struggle to make headway for a few years yet.
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I am the sum total of my own existence, what went before makes me who I am now!

[temeluchus]

[LockyUK]

Just like everything Chinese made, crap (I mean a 6 year old boy with 1 arm and no toes is hardly going to make a good bike when he can't wipe his arse properly)

[colin1]

I think the future lies in collaborations between hi-tech new world countries and the cheap labour of low tech countries.

One example being triumph building it's bikes in thailand now, so you get british engineering but costs kept low by building somewhere cheap.

Tata of india have bought jaguar so they get access to top end engineering which they will filter down into their indian brands.

China will do something similar, They will buy an underperforming japanese brand, pump money into it, and syphon off the hi-tech engineering to make similar at home.

It will be a long time before china can produce an equivalent of an r6, but then triumph bided there time with retro models for quite a while before, they put their toe in the water with the tt600 and 675 to go up against the japanese.

So China can start with cheap bikes for low income countries and learners here, but slowly they will move into big bike commuters.

I reckon in ten years if you get a parallel twin 500 it would be silly not to get a chinese bike, and in 20 years, for a weekend toy, you will consider the chinese offerings as credible.
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colin1 is officially faster than god

[Babba]

[pepperami]

[pepperami]

Come back MZ, Jawa, & CZ all is forgiven
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I am the sum total of my own existence, what went before makes me who I am now!

[bLiXeY]

[Teflon-Mike]

[Teflon-Mike]

[bLiXeY]

Excellent potted history of post war automotive manufacture mike

[Rogerborg]

There's no inherent reason why China can't make decent bikes. Many of the components of your "Japanese" or "European" bike will be made in China anyway.

The YBR 125 is a Chinese bike in every way that matters. Perhaps their Japanese quality control overlords are stopping the bad ones getting out, but the good ones? They're made by Chinese people, from Chinese parts, in China.

However, there are some pretty fundamental differences between Chinese and Japanese industries.

Japan managed to transfer feudal loyalty into the industrial era. Their companies essentially offer a job for life. Since they (effectively) own their employees, they invest in them, in both training and brainwashing. Employees work themselves to death in order not to shame their company.

For example, I was hosted in Yokohama by a chap who did his normal working day, then stayed on until 3 or 4am (we could only get access to their testing hardware overnight) took us out for food, caught an hour or two's kip, then started over again, every day for 2 weeks, never a word of complaint, scrupulously polite the whole time. The kicker was that it was obvious after the first night that everything was fine and there was no need to keep going back, but it was simply unthinkable for either party to back down and skimp on doing the pre-agreed amount of work.

Chinese companies are trying to ape that, but the culture isn't an exact fit. They try and force employees to stay, locking them up at night and working them to death. It's not the same thing at all. There's no genuine loyalty from employees, they know they're just disposable commodities.

There's also the notion of honesty. I've seen the genuine dedication of relatively low level peons first hand, and some Japanese executives even to this day accept real responsibility for screwups. China, forget it, there's always another outfit opening down the road. Think 1980s London, it's just about Loadsamoney.

Volume. Japan makes millions of bikes. China makes hundreds of millions.

Japanese companies upsell. Start on a 125, graduate to a tourer or sportsbike or Harley clone. People in the same company are working on the budget bikes and the top of the range posermobiles. Some of the quality-through-necessity attitude is going to make its way around.

Chinese factories make almost entirely sub 150cc bikes and scooters, for a market of povs that can't (because of traffic laws) aspire to anything bigger. Heck, I've seen traffic cop variants of my little CM-125 clone.

So there's no existing culture of quality, and no particular need to produce it. Since the global market for big bikes is contracting, I wouldn't bet on them investing in them. In the domestic Chinese market, ecomental laws are likely to stifle the market for big bikes as fast as the demand for such luxury items - and the law changes to allow them to be ridden - grows.

So, China could produce great bikes cheaply, but I honestly don't think that they'll bother. There's no untapped market for them to sell into.

Don't get me wrong, there's such a huge manufacturing base there that some outfits will start exporting big bikes, but I doubt that they'll ever really commit to making them to Japanese standards of quality, although they'll certainly claim to be doing so.

I'd be delighted to be wrong, of course.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Snodvan]

[Walloper]

Chinese copy and paste everything.
They use cheap paper and wishy-washy inks.
I work in heavy industry where I see Chinese shit a lot as a daily occurrence. The can make a pump to pump for instance but when it fails it is almost impossible to get a repair kit. The industry standard pumps form Europe/America are well supported so can be repaired several times.

As said, The Chinese are NOT innovative.

Jap bikes kicked British bikes into touch because they put stuff on their bikes that British Bikers wanted.
Japanese were innovative where British bikes were resting on their Laurels oblivious/writing off the competition.

But never say never. It would only take some Chinese factory to hire a development team (Like Carl Foggarty ) and they would soon catch up. They are awash with money now so it's a matter of time.
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W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair

[lilredmachine]

[Babba]

China is currently experiencing its 'Industrial Revolution'. An event that many countries & cultures have already experienced & progressed from.

It's future is mapped out in the history of those that have gone before it, in China's case it may be ever so slightly differant because of its successfull, totalitarian government.

But eventually it will be the same, its the worlds largest population & one day soon that population will start to ask itself "why can't we enjoy the fuits of our labour".

Think Tiananmen Square but on a greater scale. The government will be overwhelmed by the sheer scale of numbers, the average bloke in the street outnumbers it by 1000-1.

I again predict that China will have a factory Moto GP team before the end on this decade, it will of course be producing the high capacity, performance motorcycles which participating in Moto GP is all about.

Selling high profit units to a leisure market.

Tis' written in the laws of commerce

[pepperami]

[lilredmachine]

[pepperami]

[lilredmachine]

They are that expensive because that is what people will pay for them.

Witness the R125 being one of the best selling bikes around despite costing nearly 4 and a half fucking grand for a tarted up commuter 125. It doesn't even have USD forks for christ sake. All it does is prove there are many, many idiot spotty yoofs with too much money around.

I totally agree with you that bikes in general are way too expensive, don't get me wrong. I however disagree with your statement that Hyosungs have fallen into any particular pricing trap along with the Jap makers. On average, their bikes are still a grand cheaper than the Jap alternatives, in most cases they are not a grand worse, either.

Stop moving the goalposts
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Bikes: too many, too much for one man to maintain anyway.

[pepperami]

We have to agree to disagree about Hyosungs, yes they are cheaper than a similar Japanese machine.
However the big four have the networks (dealers & spares) to make buying one of thier machines a viable option.

I had a look at someones GTR 250 in the summer and a very nice bike it seemed to be.
If I was to get one and wanted to get spares, unless I use the net, the nearest dealer is over 50 miles away .

For me personally Hyosungs would need to be another£600/700 cheaper for me to consider them because of the inconveniance of thier dealer set-up.
As for a Chinese bike? firstly they need to produce a bike that I would want like a 250 twin or a 400 triple (no not one that`s trying to be a Harley).
They have almost no dealer back up so it would have to be REALLY cheap!
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I am the sum total of my own existence, what went before makes me who I am now!

[Rogerborg]

The GT250R has a v-twin making 28.5 bhp. It's a closer match to the new CBR250R at £3950. I'm pretty sure I know which one will end up costing you more when you come to sell it 2 or 3 years later.