Fucking Injectors...

[MaybeGuy]

How do they work?

Not miracles...

My understanding of EFI is pretty limited, as not many marine/naval diesels have it... I'm trying to trace a fault on the ninja and so far I've narrowed it down to the fuel pump, and ordered a new one... if it's not that, I'm fucked.

Anyway, to my understanding, the pump causes pressure throughout the whole system, then the injector is triggered, but by what? is it a solenoid or something? All the injectors I've used are cam operated.

Is this correct? If so, then it could confirm my problem.
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!!
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[Pete.]

The injector is a solenoid, not too unlike a starter solenoid from a car starter motor or even a bike starter solenoid. Inside is a coil and a magnetic shuttle, when you energise the coil the magnetic field created draws the shuttle back against a spring allowing fuel to be forced through the nozzle.
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a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[MaybeGuy]

Fantastic, cheers.
With any luck it is the pump then, as I suspect it's not supplying enough pressure to force fuel out of the injector.
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!!
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[Pete.]

FI isn't any harder to understand than carbs really. You have a pump, a regulator, an injector and something to tell the injector when to open and how long for (ECU and sensors).

Testing the pump is a doddle, disconnect the plug and wire it directly to a battery. If it's running it's probably fine. You could also pull an injector and cycle the ignition briefly - it should blast out fuel for a couple of seconds.

Regulators are super-reliable.

Injectors you test with a pp9 battery. 9v is enough to open a high-impedance injector without cooking it. They open, they close and that's it. Sometimes they get blocked with crap but they'll still work of a fashion.

That all said - every fuel injection total failiure I ever looked at was a duff alarm/immobiliser.
____________________
a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[MaybeGuy]

It's a very weird problem to be honest. It's not a total EFI failure as it tries and fails, which would also rule out the alarm.

I've got my fuel tank arcing onto the frame, it'll only prime when earthed on the frame... Dodgy earth would be the obvious one, but it's no different if I ground the earth wire. The replacement pump was £15 so figured it was worth a punt, and it'll at least rule that out if it isn't.

On top of this, the bike will only splutter and burble, and won't tick over at all, hence thinking it may be fuel pressure related.

All this after I did the valve clearances. They're now all spot on, I've checked the timing, cleaned the injectors, I've got a strong spark, removed the power commander, and running out of ideas tbh.

On the other hand, all I've done is take off the tank to do the work and store it vertically, no idea how it could have fucked the pump as it was fine before, even stripped and cleaned it.
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!!
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[Pete.]

Check the vac hoses on the throttle bodies. It sounds like the pressure sensor is getting no vac signal.
____________________
a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[MaybeGuy]

Just checked this, everything's attached as it should be, and I've even tried swapping out the sensors with no change.
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!!
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[Kickstart]

Hi

Not sure on the system on your bike.

However I presume that there is some way to control the pump, cutting it when the engine is not running or possibly when it is on its side. Possibly connected to the oil pressure sensor, or possibly just directly from the ECU picking up from the crank sensor.

If the pump is managing to run then it is probably OK electrically (mechanically it might be down on pressure, but unless VERY low the fuel pressure regulator will probably manage to keep it up to an extent).

All the best

Keith
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[MaybeGuy]

The oil pressure light goes out when the bike's cranking, so hopefully that would rule that one out.

Would these vacuum sensors that pete is talking about control the fuel pump?

I've checked connections on both the crank and cam position sensors, I see no reason for them to have failed from being sat for 3 days whilst I did the clearances.

It primes just fine when the tank touches the frame, but otherwise it's dead.

I believe that the regulator, filter, pump etc are all one unit on these, so replacing the ''pump'' unit should cover a pretty broad spectrum.

Here's the manual I'm working with, although admittedly it only got brought out when the problems started.

https://www.mediafire.com/?wg8oapaw01b8tax
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!!
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[Pete.]

How many wires go to the pump? I can't believe they use a dirty earth for the return.
____________________
a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[Pete.]

[MaybeGuy]

3 wires to the pump.
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!!
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[Kickstart]

[MaybeGuy]

Forgot to mention, if I run 12v through the pump, bypassing all switches/sensors etc, making the pump run continuously, there's no change in it starting or not.

Something's fucked here, and I'm no sparky... I think it's time to learn.
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!!
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[Pete.]

The manual you linked to shows 2 wires to the pump (36). Bk/Y is a direct return to the battery negative, so if the pump will only prime when the tank is touched to the frame I would look at that heavy neutral link connector shown just above the battery in this drawing, to see if it's making a good connection. That would also mess with all the sensors and ECU.
____________________
a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[Kickstart]

[MaybeGuy]

Pete,
With the black and yellow wire earthed to the - battery terminal, nothing happens, surely that's not right?

Kieth,
I'll take it out and look for anything out of place, and get my resident bitch with a tester to look at it.

SERLANT, GET OVER HERE.

EDIT: No evident damage to the cam position sensor when I just took it out, I guess testing it will tell for sure though.
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!!
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[Pete.]

Have you got a meter?

If so, un-plug the fuel pump and check for a circuit between the black/yellow in the loom at the fuel pump connector and battery negative. You should have continuity.

If you have a connection there, check the same wire in the fuel pump plug to the fuel pump body/tank. If you have continuity I don't know what the hell is going on. If you don't, the fuel pump wiring is faulty.
____________________
a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[MaybeGuy]

I don't, but I'm sure I can borrow one from somewhere, or get someone to do it for me.

Watch this space.
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!!
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[Vincent]

What sort of physical condition are the electrics in generally? ie; are connector blocks and relays gunged up and are the spade connectors clean and corrosion free?
Does the ZXR have a diagnostics plug?
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Space Is Deep

[MaybeGuy]

Everything's pretty good to be honest. I only found 1 slightly green pin which I cleaned up.

As for diagnostics, no, but it does have a wire that if earthed, will show any error codes, but all it shows is ''exhaust servo fault'' because I have a full yoshimura system on it.
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!!
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[Walloper]

I'm putting half of my chips on a bad ECU.
The other half on a choked fuel filter or bad petrol.

I'll be around later for my money.


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W-ireless A-rtificial L-ifeform L-imited to O-bservation P-eacekeeping and E-fficient R-epair

[Pete.]

You're supposed to leave the servo connected, and just remove the cable IIRC
____________________
a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[MaybeGuy]

I've done the jumper mod on it, and removed the servo motor. Did this about 18 months ago and had it mapped, so it's not the problem.
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Blue_SV650S wrote: it was a sh1te wheelie, but it proves that he can get it up in 3rd and can do angles. In summery, mattsprattuk is a gobby little sh1tebag, dopehead tw4t, but sadly for all of us, he probably isn't THAT full of sh1te!!
Kickstart wrote: Hi I tend to agree with Matt. All the best Keith

[Pete.]

Have you got any further on it today? Ran a tester over that negative lead?
____________________
a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good