Something to start on ... Ideas?

[Biker_Abi]

I'm thinking on saving for a very cheap off-roader in this next year to have a little play on.

I've been riding road bikes for 7 years now commuting daily so plenty of riding time. However not done a huge amount of any off roading. I've done plenty of mountain biking (I do realise this is not exactly the same here but has some elements).

I would like to get myself a cheap thing to not only take me onto green laning but also to tinker with and get my basic mechanical etc skills up, I currently have little skills in this area.

I'm nearly 6ft and pretty heavy at 100kg, don't get me wrong I'm not fat but I'm in need of something that will give me enough power for me to have some fun. I looked at the small 50-100cc types but can't see these giving me the oomph or the thrill.

Any thoughts on sizes of engine or bikes I can tinker on?

Thanks all!
____________________
Current ride: Triumph Street Triple R > Suzuki SV650S > Honda CG 125

[NJD]

Budget?

Could try a Pulse Adrenaline 250 or a Lexmoto Adrenaline 125 both for under £2,000.. I've sat on the Adrenaline 250 and it's certainly a full sized bike, i'm 6ft 1.. can flatfoot but would take some getting used to in comparison to my 125.

Ideal use for thrashing rather than attempting the up-keep, uses an easy to work on engine that plenty of people are familiar with if you ever need help.. parts are also constantly available at cheap rates with next day delivery.

Alternatively.. if you state your budget I'm sure there are plenty of Jap or other bikes with higher power for the same or less.

[Ste]

Sub £1k XR400 ?

[G]

Lower powered bikes tend to be lower geared.
Saying that, at least a competition biased 250 4 stroke or 125 2 stroke is a good start.
Your weight vs a lighter rider isn't going to effect the power/weight ratio much - ie 10% lower for you on a lighter bike and even lower percentage on a heavier bike.

Personally, I'd suggest keeping an eye out for a KTC 300EXC or Gas Gas 300EC. Can get them for around £1k and they offer lightweight with a flat power delivery. You won't need to upgrade anything to go much faster as your skills improve.

The Lexmoto's suggested above are slow, a bit heavy and have road wheels and tyres. Also suspension considerably lacking to competition-biased bikes I expect. Seem like really poor choices to me.

[NJD]

[Biker_Abi]

I'm looking at £1-2k to be honest as cheap as possible without compromising on something decent. I do have a lot of money to be honest. I don't mind a bit of a project to play with so long as the thing is running and rideable. I always fancied a KTM but not sure if they're great first time bikes?

Thanks for your thoughts. I really want to get myself green laning.
____________________
Current ride: Triumph Street Triple R > Suzuki SV650S > Honda CG 125

[recman]

Buy something you wont get too attached to and won't mind getting stolen.

[Ste]

As you've got lots of money you should get at least two offroad bikes.

[Biker_Abi]

I don't have the money yet. I'll be saving.
____________________
Current ride: Triumph Street Triple R > Suzuki SV650S > Honda CG 125

[MarJay]

GasGas Pampera? XR250?
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[stevo as b4]

I'd look for a TTR250 like Fladdem has, an XR250 or 400. There's older but good bikes like the DR350, XT350, but many of them like KMX200's, CRM's, DT's and MTX's will be often knackered and non usable project status.

At 100kg, Id say avoid 125's and don't look for power outputs. A 200cc KTM etc, might have all the power you need and more, but it's not likely to that usable most of the time.

G's suggestions as ever are KTM orientated, and great if you can:
a, afford them
b, want to improve and get better and do more competition orientated stuff with them
c, avoid using them on the road much. A KTM 300EXC is a fine and very powerful competition bike, but for road use with the mpg and tank range it'll suck, and I really think a 50bhp hard to ride quickly 2stroke is not the idea bike for most novice's or anyone that want to play and have fun, instead of getting really serious about enduro events etc.

I do like the AJP range of bikes, and theing they have nice parts fitted, good build quality and are cheaper than other European brands, as they use recycled older generation Jap engines.

[G]

[stevo as b4]

All fair points, and I know you know the KTM range and have direct experience of many varients, hence your often orange suggestions!

I'm of the opinion that I could not ride through a welsh forest enduro stage, or around a more MX derived course any quicker on a KTM 300 than I could on a TTR250, hence it would be wasted on me.

Also I'm kinda of the mindset that say if I had a DR350, then I would want to be getting the very most from it and using all of it's potential on every ride, or getting frustrated to losing out to riders on better machinery. I'd hate to have a competition bike, and look the part yet be crap on it.

It'd be like someone on a twin shock trials bike cleaning every section, and me riding the same class of sections on a Cota 315R and falling off on most of them. I wouldn't want to be that guy!

Also in your opinion would you still recommend the 300cc KTM's over the 125/200's for very technical stuff like they do in continental events that are closer to trials in their speed and severity?

[G]

Have you ridden a KTM300?
I haven't a TTR to be fair and weight wise they seem pretty reasonable, but I'd still expect 10% less weight on the bike, likely better suspension and an engine with loads more low down power would help you a bit in most situations. I chose the 144 for Hafren, but I'm sure the 300 engine would have seen me quicker in a good few bits.

On the DR350, I'd suggest you're falling for the 'c50 logical fallacy' .
(Ie; if you put Rossi and yourself on a c90 next to each other, you wouldn't go as fast as Rossi, thus "wouldn't get the best from it", so you should probably stick to the C50.)
I do appreciate not being an 'all the gear no idea' type - I was a tad horrified in trackday pictures to note that my gear both all matched, but also matched the race bike I was riding!

However, I've certainly in a very, very similar example riding a Rev3 (I wanted a 315R actually, but missed bidding and as it goes the person selling had a fried with a rev3 for sale too, so got that) - I've certainly failed to clean sections people on classic trials machines have done with ease. However, if I were on a less worthy machine, I'd have done worse and had less fun. I didn't find any aminosity from the performance and even found plenty of people to help out a 'noob' with techique and so on.

The 300 engine excels for trials-like stuff, thanks to it's globs of low down punch mixed with light weight. You'll often see them used for extreme enduros for that reason.
The 125 lacks oomph in comparison, though it weighs less. The 200 is great to be revved in flowing woods, but requires a chunk more skill to make use of the typically powerbandy engine. There's not a massive number of kgs between the 300 and 125/200 (which are basically the same), some of which is the electric start. Dimensions are the same. So for ease of use, the bigger cc is the one to go for. It'll be a bit less manouverable due to more rotating mass, but still better than a 4 stroke with more spinning weight and higher rpm.

[thx1138]

I've ridden on the road with dirt tyres so much now, I forget it's not normal.

[Fladdem]

Stevo got in there before me. I've ridden a KTM 300 and came away disappointed. It was a great bit of kit, but too small, and seemed quite stall-able. I almost always suggest a TTR when this topic crops up, I think it's a wicked bike, you can do anything on it.

https://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag134/Fladdem/MX%20Day/10428153_281473372056544_6511064373269963812_o_zps41a10981.jpg

Did my first enduro on mine, after about three weeks of owning it, didn't come last. Did a long distance trial on it, just to prove a point that I can do everything the KTM'ers can. Again, I didn't come last. Done motocross on it. I was the slowest at that though. Green laning, great, commute to work on it, great. put road wheels and tyres on and prat around with mates on their 125's, great. I actually pulled slower lap times on a fully race prepped CRF250R than my own bike, I guess that's to do with riding what you are used to, though.

So after suggesting a TTR, I think you should buy a CRM 250. Torquier than the KaTooM, more oomph at the top than my TTR, better suspenders, crawls up hills I couldn't get up on my TTR, but you do need to change gear more than on a four stroke. I'm not very good at riding it like a two stroke, but it copes with my rubbish skills quite well.

I actually prefer trail bikes to enduro bikes. If offered a DR350 or a KTM, I would be more inclined towards the old Suzuki, for my needs, it just suits me much better, I use my dirt bikes to attempt every aspect of dirt bike riding, and trailies from the 90's seem much more flexible, IMO.

My TTR may be up for grabs soon though? I'm thinking about her bigger sister...
____________________
Current:1991 Honda MT50 (Soon to be a H100/MTX/MT5 hybrid), 1976 Honda Cub C70, 2005 Honda Varadero 125, 1993 Yamaha TTR250 Open Enduro , 2010 Road Legal Stomp YX140, 1994 Honda CRM 250 MK III, 1999 Cagiva Mito 125, 1992 Honda CB400 Super Four, Stomp T4 230, 1984 Honda H100s, 2009 Sym XS125K
Past:2003 Aprilia RS125, 1982 Kawasaki GPZ550(FREE BIKE!)
I'm having more fun than a well-oiled midget.

[G]

I still think there was something wrong or weirdly setup with the 300 you were riding, because none of what you describe matches my experiences of any 250cc + modernish enduro bike.
(My 87 350cc KTM which didn't have a powervalve was more peaky etc, but you're still talking xr250 sort of power before it hit the powerband, then a bit hit as it came on-pipe.)

I've got a pic somewhere of doing jumps on a stock c90. Also did a lap of enduro land, even keeping up with some riders of KTMs in the twisty sections!

I did my first enduro on a KTM690, which is less suitable than a TTR - but I wouldn't recommend it for someone looking for their first dirt bike .

From that, every 300cc enduro bike I've ridden has a chunk more low down pull than all the CRM250s I've ridden.

(Though, the CRM is a nice bike, it just seems a bit silly to get one over the competition bike unless you're planning on doing lots of road miles.)

I'd definitely have to change gear less on a 300 than than an XR250 for similar riding.

[Fladdem]

Actually G, you're right. The 300 was having power valve issues now you mention it. I'd forgotten that.

I like the weight of trail bikes as well. Proper competition machines don't feel very substantial to me, and it just feels weird and wrong. I also like being the odd one out, on an old Jap bike in a sea of orange when you go to events. You always get the blokes that have been at it for a while come over and give you tips because they started on/used to own that bike. They then think you're a better rider than you are because you're struggling around on something a bit out-dated but not being left behind.

I think I only mentioned my CRM, because it is my favourite dirt bike I have ever rode. It feels similar to a standard CRF250 but a tad easier to use and a bit quicker, but not by much.

The WR250F is another serious contender for favourite dirt bike I've rode. But I don't think I could ever go back to four stroke now. The power delivery just isn't as nice. I never get on with 450's, I nearly got spat off a Husaberg 450, again on a WR450 a KX450F tried to kill me as well. I am a noob with a lead fist, but I just think that I couldn't deal with something like that except for road use, which would be a bit of a waste.

My first ride on a bike was at 15, I'd just bought my c70 and got her running, and me and my dad had gone to the local field to get some practise in before my CBT in a few months time. It wasn't long before my dad was encouraging me to fly off a mound in the field.

I need to get out and ride more.
____________________
Current:1991 Honda MT50 (Soon to be a H100/MTX/MT5 hybrid), 1976 Honda Cub C70, 2005 Honda Varadero 125, 1993 Yamaha TTR250 Open Enduro , 2010 Road Legal Stomp YX140, 1994 Honda CRM 250 MK III, 1999 Cagiva Mito 125, 1992 Honda CB400 Super Four, Stomp T4 230, 1984 Honda H100s, 2009 Sym XS125K
Past:2003 Aprilia RS125, 1982 Kawasaki GPZ550(FREE BIKE!)
I'm having more fun than a well-oiled midget.

[G]

After riding the 144 at Hafren, I'm all for as light weight as possible - great fun on the descents having something that feels akin to a mountain bike, but that takes big hits with a lot less skill and has 38hp to get you up the other side .

My ideal fun bike would be a modern as possible KTM200 (the XC is usually listed as being a couple of kg lighter than the EXC, but not sure if that's just the road stuff.)

[stevo as b4]

I still say TTR250, XR250 or even better the WR250F (awesome for a novice) would be great beginners bikes for general off roading. It's not like the OP is aming to enter a competition class where specific machinery is required, both for the rules and to be competitive.

i.e if your were taking up beginners MX racing you'd want a well prepared say YZ125 or YZ250F from the outset for example.

For first time trail riding, green laning or even off road adventure riding, or your first enduro event etc, I would say a 20-25bhp bike would be more than enough to have a lot of fun on and not intimidate you.

G I havn't actually ridden a 300cc 2smoke, but I still don't think a 50bhp bike is that suitable for the OP as a first machine. They might be pretty trials like at low revs, and vey luggable in high gears, but if the OP say accidently grabs a huge handful of throttle (which could happen in a moment of panic or from a bad landing or body position coming out of a tight turn etc, the when a 300cc 50bhp motor lights up it's gonna flip the bike from under you before you know whats happened, or just take off with the rider shitting themselves possibly.

I've said it before, but I was out once and saw a guy pulling out of a housing estate on a 300EXC. He was only short shifting through the gears, and yet the front was coming up a bit each time as he went up the road. A novice getting it wrong on one of these machines could get into so much shit so quickly IMO.

Oh and if a 300cc 2T is that good, I do wonder why more novices don't go the old 500cc MX route for a first play bike/green laner, as surely you'd have even more of a soft and cuddly power delivery on a CR500 or similar?

[G]

[Fladdem]

I think you are more likely to get out of hand quicker on a four stroke, because it has a wider spread of torque across the whole rev range, so it will pull better in each gear, which means a handful of throttle on a 4T is more likely to end up with OP on rear end.

I did it on a fully race-prepped 2013 CRF250R, my mate reckons it has about 40hp after everything, give or take a horse here and there, and coming off a drop-off, landing slightly funny, smacked the throttle open coming up to a tight right-hand berm. The thing took off with me, went screaming up the berm, I went flying and smashing through a pallet at the edge of the track, my leg has never been the same since. There is a weird lump there and it is still sore to the touch, that was on the 22nd of September 2014, but my injury isn't the point. The point of that is that competition four strokes are much more likely to leave you potato.

WR250F's are phenomenal machines. Nice and sedate as standard, more top end go than my TTR but not as much at the bottom, engine characteristics feel identical to my machine. But mine is a 263cc, ported and polished head, after market exhaust pipe, airfilter, un-corked, and slightly higher compression than standard, I think about 11:1 compared to the 10.5:1?

Only issues I find with my CRM compared to my TTR, is:
a) The fuel economy is dire, I get less than 30MPG out of the Honda sometimes, I get about 50 from the TTR.

b) When I stall the CRM in an awkward position, I really struggle to keep my balance sometimes to kick her over. So a 'leccy start is handy sometimes.

c) I have to think about gears a bit more. It's not too much of a hassle really, considering how torquey it is for a smoker, it's less fussy than something peakier but often you want to gun it out of a corner but it just wurrs until you stamp it down a cog then it WAAAAHHHPS! out of the corner like a proper bike.
____________________
Current:1991 Honda MT50 (Soon to be a H100/MTX/MT5 hybrid), 1976 Honda Cub C70, 2005 Honda Varadero 125, 1993 Yamaha TTR250 Open Enduro , 2010 Road Legal Stomp YX140, 1994 Honda CRM 250 MK III, 1999 Cagiva Mito 125, 1992 Honda CB400 Super Four, Stomp T4 230, 1984 Honda H100s, 2009 Sym XS125K
Past:2003 Aprilia RS125, 1982 Kawasaki GPZ550(FREE BIKE!)
I'm having more fun than a well-oiled midget.

[Biker_Abi]

Got a bit of cash from selling my old CG125. Now in the mind for looking at a supermoto etc. Any thing anyone knows of do let me know...

Thanks.
____________________
Current ride: Triumph Street Triple R > Suzuki SV650S > Honda CG 125

[samv]

i started my offroad experience on a Honda CR250R

great machine! but maybe not that suitable as a starters bike

[stuartt]

what about a 450 rieju ? 2k would get a fairly new one .