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Global issue... Animal agriculture and "cowspiracy"

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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 15:01 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Global issue... Animal agriculture and "cowspiracy" Reply with quote

So, much like Blackfish, a film has come out stating the elephant in the room of global warming is clearly animal farming.

https://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/

Basically says the only way forward is to go vegan. Dairy is even worse for the environment, including the amount of feed crops and water use... leaving aside the methane, it is still a big drain.

I was rapidly anti-vegetarian when younger, but I am also not too arsed about recycling. It seems to cause more issues/waste, and puritanism is bullshit so disliked holier than thou lettuce botherers.

But got to say, quitting meat is such a small step to helping the environment. So is not having children.
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 15:07 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a miracle how how the human race has survived all this time considering meat has always been nommed.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 15:10 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

The facts are all cherry picked to suit the agenda of selling vegan branded food, they've done all the research off american feed lots, which in the grand scheme of the world, amounts to not much.

These same people want pet's banning from living in houses and zoo's closed down, so all nature lives a 'natural' life.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 15:24 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saw Cowspiracy last year and it was quite interesting.

CaNsA wrote:
It's a miracle how how the human race has survived all this time considering meat has always been nommed.


The human population has tripled in less than a century, along with the introduction of factory farming, which saw the rate of meat production increase by 16x in a similar timespan.

It's definitely not a case of, "Well this is how it's always been." Much of the world today is vastly different, with change and progress happening at a far faster rate than was ever normal before.

It's definitely important to consider the impact of all these new, large-scale social phenomena.


Last edited by Lord Percy on 15:34 - 02 Jan 2016; edited 1 time in total
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doggone
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PostPosted: 15:25 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can be bothered to look at the brain dead propaganda, but it will have an American bias from the mention of using water as if it somehow vanishes rather than mostly ... recycled to the land.

A great deal of UK production is grass based and from land which certainly isn't suitable for growing organic nut cutlets.
A lot of vegetarian staples seem to be imported from far corners of the world, that isn't very environmentally friendly compared to dairy products or meat from a farm a few miles down the road.

In Northern Europe we have always had a diet reliant on animals because over large areas that is the most efficient way to get protein bearing in mind our climate.

This is where the indoctrinated dweebs come back and rant on about pigs fed on grain etc.
What should be borne in mind is that cattle and pigs do indeed get grain as a dietary boost but they aren't getting stuff that would otherwise have been made into bread.

There are strict quality controls for grain going for human consumption and the feed wheat which fails due to weathering/difficult harvest or whatever goes to animals.
There will always be a good percentage of arable crops which don't make the grade.
Pigs especially have always been basically fed on our left overs.
You could just dump that second quality grain I guess.
Or why not use it to feed animals if you aren't stupidly wasteful.

The most efficient farming systems involve both animals and arable cropping, the animal manures are valuable soil improvers and reduce the need for artificial fertiliser.
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 15:32 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Saw this last year and it was quite interesting.

CaNsA wrote:
It's a miracle how how the human race has survived all this time considering meat has always been nommed.


But.... Posted: 14:07 - 02 Jan 2016
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 15:33 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

CaNsA wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
Saw this last year and it was quite interesting.

CaNsA wrote:
It's a miracle how how the human race has survived all this time considering meat has always been nommed.


But.... Posted: 14:07 - 02 Jan 2016


Ha, sorry I mean the Cowspiracy film.
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ThoughtContro...
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PostPosted: 16:34 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Re: Global issue... Animal agriculture and "cowspiracy& Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:
But got to say, quitting meat is such a small step to helping the environment. So is not having children.


I'm sure the current population of the white liberal western countries will wring their hands and willingly reproduce at an even lower rate than they already are, while recycling and bicycling around to reduce their carbon footprint like well trained compliant citizens. Meanwhile our betters will insist that we take in a gazillion "refugees" or whatever the latest newspeak label is, from the less educated parts of the world, since we clearly don't breed, and we need this fresh population influx, that has many children and rapidly reproduces, just to sustain the economy. I'm sure the imams will be preaching veganism and having less children as a good thing. As long as the Koran says lentils and soya beans are halal we're golden.
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 17:51 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have actual figures just observational, but I see plenty of these save the earth/don't drive a car/meat is killing the planet types all seem to have a dog or three. Biggest carbon footprint that we can actually do something about very easily.
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Jmoan
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PostPosted: 19:08 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd sooner stick nappies with gas tanks onto cows for a win win result.
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Tracey Suntan-King
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PostPosted: 19:28 - 02 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll bet that none of the boffins who advocate giving up meat and eating only veg, nuts, pulses and legumes (whatever they are) have extrapolated one important fact.....

If everyone eats that crap, the farts alone will kill the planet.

Imagine also the extra strain (snigger) on the sewerage systems and lastly, the extra bog roll consumption.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 00:16 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skudd wrote:
I don't have actual figures just observational, but I see plenty of these save the earth/don't drive a car/meat is killing the planet types all seem to have a dog or three. Biggest carbon footprint that we can actually do something about very easily.


I'd rather cull people than dogs.

There are too many humans, end of story.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 01:44 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Re: Global issue... Animal agriculture and "cowspiracy& Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:
...a film has come out stating the elephant in the room of global warming is clearly animal farming...


I have heard about this before (about 10 years or so ago), it does make sense. But then, does it really? We know so little about this planet, that people only guess, what the cause of the warming could possibly be.

For each study that says what the problem is, there is another counter-study, that says otherwise. Which only means, all this is just another wild guess. Just for the fun of it, look at what our ancestors thought about things and problems of their time. Thumbs Up
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:14 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Re: Global issue... Animal agriculture and "cowspiracy& Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
Sun Wukong wrote:
...a film has come out stating the elephant in the room of global warming is clearly animal farming...


I have heard about this before (about 10 years or so ago), it does make sense. But then, does it really? We know so little about this planet, that people only guess, what the cause of the warming could possibly be.

For each study that says what the problem is, there is another counter-study, that says otherwise. Which only means, all this is just another wild guess. Just for the fun of it, look at what our ancestors thought about things and problems of their time. Thumbs Up


Are you sure there's a counterstudy for everything? Or does it just seem that way because when studies come out there are always amateurs chiming in with why they disagree with it.

Greenhouse gas molecules have resonance frequencies similar to that of visible light, or infrared. More greenhouse gas means more molecules resonating when hit by the EM waves causing heat, which means energy from the EM waves is transferred to the molecules instead of escaping into space. So heat stays in the atmosphere.

The albedo of an object is it's reflection coefficient, relating the amount of energy it takes in, to the amount of energy it radiates back out. An albedo of 1 means it is fully reflective and takes in no energy.

The albedo of earth is currently around 0.35. Greenhouse gases are lowering it. (Note the rising trend of the blue 'albedo' line actually follows a negative gradient as the scale on the right is reversed)

https://www.seafriends.org.nz/issues/global/global18.gif

The reduction in albedo is not just caused by greenhouse gases retaining the heat, but also by things like the melting of polar ice caps. The albedo of snow is 0.7. Get rid of the snow and you're left with a far less reflective material underneath.

Theory predicts these things and now it's happening. It bugs me when people outright don't trust science, as if the quest for human progress and advancement has some secret ulterior motive that only qualified scientists are aware of. The funny thing is it's often the science nay-sayers who are also the ones most likely to shun conspiracy theories, yet here we are with people claiming global warming is some kind of falsehood or conspiracy... for the gain of whom? The entire population of evil doctors and professors all in their underground society of secret collusion?

Penny Coin Penny Coin

EDIT: And cows make a lot of greenhouse gas. A lot.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 12:43 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a chap called Allan Savory who claims that, "Only livestock can reverse desertification," meaning properly managed grazing by wild and/or domesticated animals.

Quote:
As late as 1969, he was advocating culling large populations of wild animals such as elephants, when they appeared to be destroying their habitat. His research, validated by a committee of scientists, led to the government culling of 40,000 elephants in following years but he later concluded the culling did not reverse the degradation of the land, calling that decision "the saddest and greatest blunder of my life." This blunder, brought about by interpreting research data to fit the prevailing world-view that too many animals causes overgrazing and overbrowsing, led to Savory becoming determined to solve the problem. This was eventually to lead to the development of the holistic framework for decision-making and to holistic planned grazing

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Savory

For me the moot point in the climate-change debate is whether it is man-made or not.[/b]
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 13:24 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
There's a chap called Allan Savory who claims that, "Only livestock can reverse desertification," meaning properly managed grazing by wild and/or domesticated animals.

Quote:
As late as 1969, he was advocating culling large populations of wild animals such as elephants, when they appeared to be destroying their habitat. His research, validated by a committee of scientists, led to the government culling of 40,000 elephants in following years but he later concluded the culling did not reverse the degradation of the land, calling that decision "the saddest and greatest blunder of my life." This blunder, brought about by interpreting research data to fit the prevailing world-view that too many animals causes overgrazing and overbrowsing, led to Savory becoming determined to solve the problem. This was eventually to lead to the development of the holistic framework for decision-making and to holistic planned grazing

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Savory

For me the moot point in the climate-change debate is whether it is man-made or not.[/b]


Quite interesting. I guess the difference is that there isn't much grazing going on in factory farms! Laughing

I also agree it's slightly moot as to whether it's man-made. There are certainly a lot of man-made factors going into it, but the question is whether the whole thing is still going to end up cyclic anyway. I wonder how much methane dinosaurs produced?

Although on the other hand, relating to man-made influence, I guess the big issue actually is that global warming is accelerating at an unnatural rate, because of things that just weren't happening before, namely the burning of fossil fuels and mass production of livestock.

The world has been hotter at times, but ecosystems had chance to adapt. Currently the most overt example we seem to have is dying coral reefs. I'm sure there'll be more to come at some point. The big one is the Taiga region in Sibera, with all the methane naturally locked under the permafrost. When that melts it'll be pretty major, I'm guessing.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 13:33 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Re: Global issue... Animal agriculture and "cowspiracy& Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:

EDIT: And cows make a lot of greenhouse gas. A lot.


You would think if these scientists are really interested in saving the world, or whatever they think telling us about climate change is going to do, they would be finding ways to harvest the gas cattle make to power the country....

or they could carry on making studies that say cows are bad, knowing they can carry on milking the cash cow, while little gets done about it to change
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 13:47 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I think money would be better be spent adapting to climate change, rather than trying to fight it, and lowering pollution.

Bearing in mind there has been a cyclical ice-age pattern in just the last few million years (which geologically speaking is the blink of an eye) that's a pretty big climate change, long before humans even had metals. Let alone the long term climate change over hundreds of millions of years when earth was way hotter and had a very different atmospheric composition.

I remember reading an article a few years back which went on about making a commitment to not "allow" the global temperature to rise by more than two degrees. Allow!? Laughing What are we going to do? Prosecute the planet for non-compliance? It just goes to show the ridiculous mindset that we have about ruling the roost here on earth. The climate changed before we were here, it will change after we are gone too.
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pepperami
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PostPosted: 14:58 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracey Suntan-King wrote:
I'll bet that none of the boffins who advocate giving up meat and eating only veg, nuts, pulses and legumes (whatever they are) have extrapolated one important fact.....

If everyone eats that crap, the farts alone will kill the planet.

Imagine also the extra strain (snigger) on the sewerage systems and lastly, the extra bog roll consumption.


Such wise and well expressed words Thumbs Up , couldn`t agree more Smile
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PostPosted: 15:10 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this problem may end up being sorted by economics, with a little politics thrown in.

US agriculture relies on growers being able to sell staples - mostly corn - at well below the cost of production, largely due to massive federal subsidies but also relying on a few other things, like illegal migrant labour from Mexico earning a pittance.

This cheap corn enables massive feedlot farms producing dirt-cheap meat. This means people can consume large amounts of low quality meat.

It isn't a sustainable model. Topsoil doesn't regenerate that fast, crops are susceptible to blight, animals are susceptible to infection and so rely on an awful lot of antibiotics. The whole system relies on a small number of very large farms, which represent single points of failure.

The fix, which would be a slower cultural shift, is for people to eat smaller amounts of higher quality meat. This is starting to happen with people buying decent organic food, but the shift is slow.

One of the things that looks like a ray of hope, particularly here in the UK, is old-fashioned organic, free range meat. Your traditional idea of a small farm, green fields, animals eating grass, selling direct to a local butcher with a local slaughterhouse. More expensive, but worth it. Properly sustainable, rotating the fields through different uses.

In time, things will balance out. The EU will probably keep away from really intensive farming, we already produce too much. China and India can look at the US model and see how it works long term. The US will have to change at some point. Meanwhile I'll keep buying free-range pork, beef and chicken from a farm I like.
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ThoughtContro...
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PostPosted: 18:20 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:
The fix, which would be a slower cultural shift, is for people to eat smaller amounts of higher quality meat. This is starting to happen with people buying decent organic food, but the shift is slow.

One of the things that looks like a ray of hope, particularly here in the UK, is old-fashioned organic, free range meat. Your traditional idea of a small farm, green fields, animals eating grass, selling direct to a local butcher with a local slaughterhouse. More expensive, but worth it.


Well that sounds nice, but we're in the 21st century. The middle class is in decline as are well paying jobs. Most of the populace will be subsisting on or just above minimum wage. This means the meat intake of the majority of the masses will be whatever "meat" is cheapest to suit this budget. Whether it's made from Romanian donkeys, recycled refugees and runaway kids or the eyelids and noses from disposed dead cats that's just the way it will turn out. As long as the packaging looks pretty and there's enough fillers, textures and artificial flavourings to make it taste like what it's not, then the unwashed public will turn a blind eye and eat it.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 19:12 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Re: Global issue... Animal agriculture and "cowspiracy& Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:

EDIT: And cows make a lot of greenhouse gas. A lot.


You would think if these scientists are really interested in saving the world, or whatever they think telling us about climate change is going to do, they would be finding ways to harvest the gas cattle make to power the country....

or they could carry on making studies that say cows are bad, knowing they can carry on milking the cash cow, while little gets done about it to change


See this is the kind of staunch anti-science talk I'm on about.

Do you really think it hasn't been considered? And do you really think climate researchers are on some kind of agenda to simply make money off the back of this? People don't get jobs 'because the earth is getting warmer', they get jobs because it's an interesting and good thing to monitor the global climate. People aren't specially paid to do studies that prove global warming, they're paid to analyse global data and trends, regardless. (Ok there are some rogue organisations out there, but the majority of evidence still tends to swing in one direction, and I don't think that's entirely going to be through institutional bias).

If you want to blame anyone for climate change being so big on the agenda, blame journalists for broadcasting the data. They're the ones who make the money, they spin it into a big thing and make a narrative to sell more papers. The scientists carry on regardless. No research institution will have its funding pulled simply because climate change is proven wrong, because the motive isn't to look for something, it's to monitor things and plot trends. That's what 'doing science' is.

And you can't blame 'science' for the lack of innovation over methane harvesting. There's a huge, complex network of people, groups and organisations involved. Just because one group sees a trend in global climate patterns, it doesn't render their results moot if another group haven't come up with a solution to cow farts yet.

Also:

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/17/article-0-1D29733200000578-945_634x421.jpg

https://a.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/fastcompany/imagecache/slideshow_large/slideshow/2014/04/3028933-slide-s-methane-01.jpg

https://h.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/fastcompany/imagecache/inline-large/inline/2014/04/3028933-inline-s-methane-03.jpg

https://www.independent.ie/migration_catalog/article25187606.ece/ALTERNATES/h342/Cow_I
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 19:30 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Re: Global issue... Animal agriculture and "cowspiracy& Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


See this is the kind of staunch anti-science talk I'm on about.

Do you really think it hasn't been considered? And do you really think climate researchers are on some kind of agenda to simply make money off the back of this? People don't get jobs 'because the earth is getting warmer', they get jobs because it's an interesting and good thing to monitor the global climate. People aren't specially paid to do studies that prove global warming, they're paid to analyse global data and trends, regardless. (Ok there are some rogue organisations out there, but the majority of evidence still tends to swing in one direction, and I don't think that's entirely going to be through institutional bias).

If you want to blame anyone for climate change being so big on the agenda, blame journalists for broadcasting the data. They're the ones who make the money, they spin it into a big thing and make a narrative to sell more papers. The scientists carry on regardless. No research institution will have its funding pulled simply because climate change is proven wrong, because the motive isn't to look for something, it's to monitor things and plot trends. That's what 'doing science' is.

And you can't blame 'science' for the lack of innovation over methane harvesting. There's a huge, complex network of people, groups and organisations involved. Just because one group sees a trend in global climate patterns, it doesn't render their results moot if another group haven't come up with a solution to cow farts yet.

Also:

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/04/17/article-0-1D29733200000578-945_634x421.jpg

https://a.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/fastcompany/imagecache/slideshow_large/slideshow/2014/04/3028933-slide-s-methane-01.jpg

https://h.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/fastcompany/imagecache/inline-large/inline/2014/04/3028933-inline-s-methane-03.jpg

https://www.independent.ie/migration_catalog/article25187606.ece/ALTERNATES/h342/Cow_I


Strawman fallacy, you're assuming i have not thought about all these things, my post was to cowspiracy and the vegan agenda as that is what the op is about.

instead of using it as a stick to blame farmers, because that is all i hear, nothing to do with helping farmers try and adapt to capturing these gasses, which will cost time and money and ultimately benefit the planet., you need to chill bruh
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 19:41 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting to me because the day before watching that documentary, I was clear that I would return to farming in the next year... even if just for a short stint.

And part of the justification is that there will always be a meat industry.

Granted, where I would be going to farm really cannot be used for crops, but the water use would still be high in borderline desert areas.

It adds all kinds of other questions;

Dairy and egg farming are bad, mkay. But what if I have a pet goat, whom I milk. And some pet ducks, who chuck out some eggs now and then.

And, what if I shoot the odd kangaroo and eat it. They are "wild" but also a pest and a drain. Can I do that?

Can I feast on the irritating fluffy bastards with impunity, so long as I don't support the meat industry... whilst working in the meat industry.

Is it ok as long as it is not intensive meat farming in indoor feedlots, but sustainable pleasant stuff.

The dilemma.

Pale
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 19:51 - 03 Jan 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun Wukong wrote:
It's interesting to me because the day before watching that documentary, I was clear that I would return to farming in the next year... even if just for a short stint.

And part of the justification is that there will always be a meat industry.

Granted, where I would be going to farm really cannot be used for crops, but the water use would still be high in borderline desert areas.

It adds all kinds of other questions;

Dairy and egg farming are bad, mkay. But what if I have a pet goat, whom I milk. And some pet ducks, who chuck out some eggs now and then.

And, what if I shoot the odd kangaroo and eat it. They are "wild" but also a pest and a drain. Can I do that?

Can I feast on the irritating fluffy bastards with impunity, so long as I don't support the meat industry... whilst working in the meat industry.

Is it ok as long as it is not intensive meat farming in indoor feedlots, but sustainable pleasant stuff.

The dilemma.

Pale


I'll assume you're in britain, and if so, buy food with the red tractor on, then you at least know its not been reared in a complete crap hole

Organic makes me laugh though, recently speaking to an organic farmer, they're not really fully organic, they just use less chemicals than conventional, unless you grow it yourself, you never really know what it's got in it.
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