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SkyBadger |
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SkyBadger Two Stroke Sniffer
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Derivative World Chat Champion
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Alpineandy |
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NJD |
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NJD World Chat Champion
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Posted: 11:08 - 22 Sep 2016 Post subject: Re: Is there a good time to buy a bike? |
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hrk wrote: | Hi,
I'm new to biking and looking to get a 125. Are there any times of the year where I'm more likely to get a "bargain" from a dealer? Middle of winter? January sales? After a new plate comes out? I'm not in a particular rush so could hole out a few months.
Thanks |
A 125 from a dealer? I wouldn't bother, that is unless chinese or any of the many re-branded names because Honda's, Yamaha's and KTM's are so overpriced on their "new" 125's that it's enough to make my eyes water even thinking about it. Forget about the dealers and look on the private market, you'll save many monies in the process.
As my recent Bandit/SV thread proved dealers are not only overpriced but are not willing to come down much, if at all, on price and would much rather loose custom than take the hit on profit margin. Even when I offered inbetween what the bike was worth and what they where asking it was a "no" so I kept looking. Dealers look to get as much money out of you as possible and that's it. You're on your own once you've passed them the money.
You'll get bored of a tiddler within the year and look at doing a full license course so don't invest to much money into the bike, go as cheap as you can for a decent runner with a long M.O.T and ride it until bored then DAS > bigger bike. Really, tiddler's are only stepping stones and a few months solo riding will prepare you as best as possible for something more, spending any more time on that on a tiddler is just wasted and will leave you with a "why didn't I do this sooner" feeling when you do eventually get on something bigger.
Nothing wrong with tiddlers if that's the route you wish to take just keep in mind they're all built to a budget and to set power restrictions so all do the same job in different plastics / design. Pick the cheapest one to insure and go and enjoy. ____________________ The do it all, T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶k̶e̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶,̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶g̶ ̶l̶u̶m̶p̶,̶ ̶C̶h̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶N̶o̶o̶d̶l̶e̶ |
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 13:15 - 22 Sep 2016 Post subject: |
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You are unlikely to get much of a 'bargain' out of a dealer; and especially so on a brand new bike, and even less on a 125, on which they have the least mark-up anyway.
Occassionally... except in the case of Suzuki who seem to have got the same Marketing consultants as the MFI furnature folks, of recent years, and continually marking everything up, as 'on offer' or 'get it now in our mid week sale, till the end of the month!" Individual dealers do get 'insentives' to take on floor stock, but usually on models that aren't shifting so quick from the warehouse, but knock-on is that they 'may' try and clear some space to take the bikes the importer wants them to, so be a little keener to shift other models or 2nd hand bikes to make room for them; and in winter, this is a 'little' more likely, and late winter a bit more so. Dealers will put in their order for the new 'spring' models around November; the bikes wont arrive until late Feb March time; so they can be trying to clear floor space for when they do around then; but again odds of bagging a bargain aren't too great, and on 125's that are the cheapest thing sin the shop to start with, and which they don't have to work very hard to sell anyway, as they are all the folks that buy'em can have, usually, you aren't likely to snag much if any of a bargain on one.
Buying private? Swings and roundabouts on that one. There's a couple of peaks in the market; Usually a slow start around March/April when the first rays of spring sun suggest we may get a summer and folk start coming out of hibernation; and bikes start getting pulled out of sheds and ridden or advertised on gumtree, which picks up to around May, as weather improves and more bikes 'about' stimulates more interest. Settles down a little through the summer as people get themselves sorted, than around September, in the little Indian summer we often get, and with summer activities all done and holidays paid for and nothing going on till Christmas; many look to sell this years bike on whilst the markets still bouyant, or look for a winter hack. There's a small co-incidence in the September college start too, that is a bit of a 'bubble' in the 125 market, as students gear up for term and Daddy helps them buy a 125 to get to and from tech, rather than buy a bus-pass, or Uni-students exited at the student loan coming in, and without parents to say "Not while your under MY roof" go out looking for'em.
More likely to get a better deal buying privately and 2nd hand; but, bottom line is that the odds are the number of bikes on offer vs the number of sellers chasing them; and that ratio doesn't change all that much throughout the year; in season you have more bikes on offer, and more folk to beat to the till to snag one; out of season, you have less bikes on offer and less folk chasing them.
IF you can find a bike out-side that season; say end of January, when some-one keyed up on the idea of a bike, and bought one in September/October has found that short days, and bad weather and dodging distressed parents racing to toys-r-us, half pissed after X-Mas party is really NOT for them, and the credit card company are sending them red letters after some Christmas over indulgence.. you MAY on a very slender chance snag something close to a 'bargain'... but the odds are slim.
Ultimately the 125 world is NOT known for many 'bargains'. 125's as new don't command the price in the show-room that bigger bikes do, they aren't so 'exiting'; people buy them because that's all they are allowed on L-Plates or they just want 'cheap'. But, cost of building a motorbike is much the same no matter how mig its engine; they have the same number of wheels, seats, lights and 'stuff' and cost is in making them bits and bolting them all together; costs pretty much the same to build a 125cc commuter, as it does say a 450cc Enduro; its just the size of hole in the engine where fire happens that's different; one will sell readily for perhaps £4K, other will struggle to sell for much more than £3K... so 125's are usually build down to a price and a quality to keep the profit margins high enough to make them viable. THEN they get chucked out into a world where they are more often used as every day get to work commuters, rather than occasional sunny day pieces of leisure equipment; they suffer the worst of the weather, and in the hands of L-Plate 'Learner's who often don't know how to ride or look after them all too well, and so often frustrated by their lack of performance, or who only want'em cos they are cheap, they tend to get thrashed and trashed and neglected, and don't 'endure' as well as bigger bikes...
BUT, either which way; market for 125's remains buoyant, because they are all so many can ride on L's, and there are so many more folk chasing any offered for sale than there are bikes for sale.
Saturation of the car market, and low 2nd hand prices there, where you can pick up pretty reasonable old motoa's for under a grand also skews perceptions, and it's often something of a shock that a 'cheap' 125, is more expensive, and there's little about worth having for under £500... and with brand new Chinky bikes starting from as little as £1000 and the Japanese Learner-commuters for only £2,500ish.. it squeezes the whole market into a very thin price range, where they ALL seem rather expensive for what you get... and they are!
To wit conclusion is 125? Bargain?! no.. just NO! Its just NOT likely to happen.
Value for money? well, you MIGHT get it from a dealers, and you might get it even on a brand new bike from a dealers. But it is unlikely to be found by dint of season, nor by dint of purchase price.
'Value' buying from a dealer is convenience; you dont have to trapse round the houses dealing with spotty oiks who probably know nothing but how fast they'd like to dream the thing went, or hustlers trying to kid the kids who know no better.
They offer a one-stop-shop, and you might get a choice of a couple of different bikes; and they may then bag-up the deal with a crash helmet, maybe a jacket & water-proofs, a CBT course, possibly finance & Insurance.... which you have to value on the whole bag, not just the price of the bike.
May even chuck in 'delivery'... which can be worthwhile; I have traveled half the length of the country a couple of times to go buy bikes.. and £50 in petrol or train fare can be a none to insignificant 'excpense', and an unseen 'discount' paying the sticker price at the dealer round the corner... especially if you would have to trapse round half a dozen addresses to find a bike worth buying and even if they are more local, teach trip is time and money out you rpocket to NOT get a bike.
"Take it back to the shop" servicing/warranty/piece of mind, is another unseen bonus of a dealer; but usually an expensive one... but for a newby, possibly a worth while one.
I would not be so quick to dismiss buying new from a dealer, as a waste of money; it isn't cheap, but it can be worth while; but I wouldn't expect much if any bargain. and I would be more concerned about the credit terms, and the rest of what was in the bag, and whether the dealer had a good rep for warranty work and servicing and such like.
What I wouldn't do is buy a brand-new chinky bike from a dealer in a hurry! Especially a lesser known one. They are build down to a price and quality that is barely adequete, for developing 3rd world markets, where 2nd hand levels of maintenence and repair are accepted on a brand new bike as labour costs are low enough to make it tolerable. Here it tends not to be, and the maintenence demands on them can make them, either not so cheap, as labour costs rob any new price saving, or unreliable 'hassle' you dont really want, if you DIY the work yourself. whilst dealer support and warranty honourability is often quite questionable. While new-bike depreciation is quite horrible.
I'd have far fewer qualms paying a bit extra for a 2nd hand Yamaha YBR or even a slightly 'pink' (rusty!) Honda CBF from a franchise dealer.. knowing that its much more likely to do what its supposed to, not so likely to need so much attension and be so much easier to live with... or even a brand new one; where even given the high new-bike depreciation, overall cost of ownership is likely to be not a lot different, with chance its likely to prove better £per mile, with better re-sale and less hassles along the way.
But Bargain? NOT something I would expect or hope for in a hurry; and I wouldn't be hoping for that small glee in the first day of having 'saved' money... I'd be looking to the entire term I owned the bike, and looking to get the best deal over the entire period... and hoping to be happy at the END, not the beginning, when I could count the whole cost, hopefully not remember too many hassles along the way, and got a pleasant chunk of cash back in my mitt to put to the next bike I bought. THAT is where the 'bargain' is to really be found, NOT in how much you think you haven't had to hand over at the beginning. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Azoth |
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Azoth Brolly Dolly
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Derivative |
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Derivative World Chat Champion
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Posted: 14:06 - 22 Sep 2016 Post subject: |
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Tawny wrote: | If you like motorbikes, the correct time to buy one or get into them or pass your test is 'ASAP', because the writing's on the wall with things like electric bikes and ULEZ, quite frankly, and for some years people have been making purchase decisions based on how many summers they have left rather than shaving a hundred off a purchase price here or there. |
Heh.
Hate to say it but that's driven most of my vehicle related escapades. Not the electric stuff mind, I'd love an electric bike/car when they're affordable and good.
I passed my test and bought a car because I want the experience of doing it before it's all automated.
Our current car will be essentially banned in a few years in London, and my guess would be that there will be increasingly strict emissions regulations forcing most into 1L econoboxes nationwide at some point.
The thing is, I don't even dislike public transport as an idea.
But our current implementation is hilariously shit. It's more expensive, slower, less convenient, dirtier, and more crowded than me riding a bike around. I'm not even sure it's better on CO2. There is literally zero win other than local transport emissions.
And that's in London, basically the best connected city in the UK. |
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SkyBadger |
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SkyBadger Two Stroke Sniffer
Joined: 21 Sep 2016 Karma :
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Posted: 15:11 - 22 Sep 2016 Post subject: |
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Hi guys, thanks for the feedback (especially teflon-mike's essay he typed out!)
Although I am old enough to do DAS I'm going to stick to 125 for a year or so to see if it's really for me. It's also taken nearly a decade for the other half to agree to me getting a bike and I told her I would start small
I'm thinking something like a slightly used YZF/CBR with low miles should hold its value pretty well. |
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arry Super Spammer
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6r4h4m Nova Slayer
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Derivative World Chat Champion
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ScaredyCat World Chat Champion
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wodge Nitrous Nuisance
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 17:12 - 22 Sep 2016 Post subject: |
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hrk wrote: | I'm thinking something like a slightly used YZF/CBR with low miles should hold its value pretty well. |
Not particularly; there's a lot of premium put on the fancy plastic 'frock' that makes what is essentially a hum-drum 125 commuter look so much more exiting than it actually ever can be; so they are touted in the show-rooms on must-have ego prices, almost double what they ask for an undressed, but otherwise equally useful and exiting commuter bike.
Straight out the shop they drop 30% of thier value, and it keeps falling; the 'must have' style and lable cudos kiddies have to have; but rarely appreciate; 2nd hand values are dragged down by the 'type' so frequently thrashed, thrashed & crashed by kiddie-go-kwik, more intent on eeking another mph out the thing and want, if they have any spare pocket money to spend it on a go-faster stripe or bit of anodized 'race' tat, than an oil change, or heaven forbid, brake pads! They soon fall into the same price range as the commuters that sat next to them in the shop, and sensible folk with real money in thier pockets to buy them, aren't going to be as impressed by the frock, or pay much of a premium for it, so they tend to not be so great for holding thier value.
Buying into that 2nd-hand market, the big hit of NBD already taken by some-one else? MAYBE, you could luck in on the ramps and not loose too much in ownership, but if you want to minimise risk... you dont buy a bike where 25% of the value is in a plastic tuppaware covering the engine, that'll be the first thing to smash if or when the thing falls of its stand or goes DTR.
The Yamaha YBR is still the bench-mark 'best value for money', least risk, least hassle, easiest to live with Learner-bike out there; if that sort of stuff is of concern to you.
hrk wrote: | Although I am old enough to do DAS I'm going to stick to 125 for a year or so to see if it's really for me. |
Folk usually know whether biking is for them after one day of CBT; or a three or five day DAS course... you REALLY don't need a year to answer that question...
Now, I advocate time on a tiddler as a good thing; its still a great way to learn the ropes; L-Plating is stil a fantastic oportunity to get some good early riding in, get some experience and learn a heck of a lot you never would starting out on far less demanding to ride DAS bikes.
BUT.
Folk get licences in DAYS doing crash-courses... I really dont like such short intensiove courses, I dont think they give an awful lot of learning for the money; they pander to the impatient and get them a licence in a hurry and dump'em on the street to do thier learning on a bike a lot less likely to help them learn so much.
BUT...
They got training and they got a full licence. and that is a damn site more than you get 'planning' to do no more than get a tiddler and go it alone, hoping for the best.
CBT is just your first lesson, and just commented in another thread; my 17 year old daughter wouldn't be allowed out in the car, unsupervised on her own before passing her tests, after just one lesson; and even after maybe a dozen or so lessons and teh full car licence in her pocket, she'd not be borrowing MY car to go to college in every day, battling rush hour traffic every morning, until she had got some better road sense and experience under her belt.
Going it alone, is the school of hard-knocks; it doesn't teach you how to ride; doesn't even teach you how NOT to ride... just punishes you for getting it wrong. at best you learn not so much what works, but what you can get away with.
TRAINING, teaches you to do stuff right, right from the start...
And as said, folk get full licences within a week; car drivers, within a dozen lessons; it does not take very much to get that learning and avoid the school of hard knocks.
Tiddling is great; and backed with lessons is a fantastic way to learn... no longer encouraged by the licencing systenm that begs DAS... but; Do CBT, get a tiddler, ride for a week, do a two hour lesson; ride for a week, practice what you learned on lesson, go back next week, learn a bit more, practice a bit more; you can learn a heck of a lot more, and get far more practice and far more useful experience in the doing, with perhaps just 8 hours of formal instruction beyond CBT... than you need 'just' to pass tests and get a licence....
Sort of puts into perspective how much of even a short DAS course, is just paying an instructor to watch you wobble on a bike you cant otherwise ride on the road to practice on.
THAT unfortunately, though is what the modern test system encourages; and you can struggle to find anywhere that offers 'byte-sized; traditional training on a weekly basis any more; begging you bite the bullet and do a DAS course.
BUT, it's still training, and you will learn more, and it WILL prepare you for coping better with the roads than the scant prep of a CBT on its own, and trying to go it alone on L's and a 125.
And no one says, JUST because you have a 'ride what you like' licence you cant like to ride a 125... I do! They are just as proper a motorcycle as any other; and most can exceed most UK speed limits and get you into just as much trouble as any other sized bike.....
hrk wrote: | It's also taken nearly a decade for the other half to agree to me getting a bike and I told her I would start small :lol |
Which makes me wonder which of you is the bigger fool. You for some-how thinking that a 'little' bike must in some way be any 'safer' than a bigger one... or her for falling for it!!!
Honestly; like I said, most 125's can still break most UK speed limits and get you into just as much trouble just as quickly is you are stupid enough. And you face the same dangers and hazards as any one on any other bike.
SMIDSY (Sorry-Mate-I-Didn't-See-You) drivers DOT LOOK.... so they sure as fuck dont look and see 'little bike' and think... like a fisherman... "Oh, that's only a cutsy lidduw one.... I'll wait for a biggun to come along and kill him instead"
Not that that is actually the biggest danger; right now, biggest danger you face will be you!!! and simple lack of learning and lack of experience.
A 125 can be a great tool to get some experience, but without some training, its not much help, and going it alone you are taking a heck of a lot of unnecessary risk to get that learning and experience.
Do DAS... much as I dont like it; you get some learning; and a licence that is FAR more likely to prepare you better to survice early miles, going solo... even if it's still reletively scabt and more biased to just getting a licence than teaching life skills. BUT its a damn site more than you'd get on no more than CBT... AND as said, no one says you have to leap onto a 600+cc machine just 'cos you have a licence....
You can STILL start small, to please the missus if you like.... you can even start as small as 125 if you still want... but you dont have to.
Plenty of 'big-tiddlers' out there that are still 'small' just not Learner-Legal. Plenty more 'sensible' bigger bikes that are Newby Freindly and a good platform IF you are sensible for getting those post DAS early miles under your belt.
Either which way, I wouldn't be looking at plastic clad 125 commuters pretending to be something they aren't in a dress-up outfit; and trying to kid myself that they were anything more than a commuter in a frock, or that some-how that Dress-up make believe costume justified itself on resale values!!!
Its a recipe for pain; and in all liklihood it would go like this: You do CBT.. you come home all fired up on the topic, and missus, disapointed you didn't hate it and it hasn't dampened your enthusiasm to point you give uyp on teh idea shrugs and says 'fine - do what you like' in that tone we KNOW means do anything BUT what you like! and you go buy plastic fantastic make believe sprosts bike...
She'll look at it; you'll tell her how great it is, and bite yourself back from telling her how fast it is; and come back to how great a deal you got, and how it was worth it because....
Week later, you will have pottered about the houses a bit, and decided you can ride it to work, on a sunnier day. Week of that, and you'll be starting to get a bit cocky... and THEN you'll have a fall.
It'll be nothing dramatic to write home about; no ambulances will be involved, no fire engines... there'll be a clunk, a tinkle and an ominous silence bar the piunding of your own pulse in your ears, as you stand in the middle of the road wondering what just happened, with little more than a bruised ego... and maybe a skuff on your new leather jacket.
You might get an over exited School-run mum come rushing over to see if your hurt... but you'll be more worried about the bike....... which will be lying on its side... and you'll think "Oh that don't look too bad" because the side you see isn't the side on the floor....
You'll pick it up, see that side that's touched tar and go "Ah!" and then you'll start thinking... "Its just a scratch... that'll polish out... If I park it that side to the wall in the garage SHE'LL NEVER KNOW"
You ARE married, right? Happily? For a long time?
Yeah WHEN has that EVER worked... she'll know... they ALWAYS bludy know! and they never fucking forget neiva!!!!!
That's when you'll get the grief; when she demands you sell it; when all the justification you gave for it being 'safer' because its littler, and its a good idea because its so cheap and it'll save so much money... just WONT WASH.
You need to be prepared for that first tumble; whether its loicking up and dumping it in a panic coming up to a set of trafic lights, or simply mis-footing it on the ruddy drive. it IS likely to happen, and all you have gained from her lady's graces will be lost... so you need to prepare HER for it too.....
AND you need to be honest; to yourself AND to her... and rather than kidding yourself and her that by some dint of illogic 'small is safe'.... GO GET TRAINED!!!!!
That is the thing most likely to do most to give you as much 'safe' as you can get in early miles... not a restricted displacement engine, and a lot of fools thinking to justify it.
Seriously, IF you want to make this work, and IF you want her on side... stop trying to fool her, stop trying to fool yourself.
You'll probably find that with a few better formed facts, you get a DAS course past management than you will buying a bike.... and IF you involve her; get her to take you to the DAS course and sit-in on the CBT talk stuff, to allay HER fears better, get HER some learning along the way as well, you'll BOTH be better prepared and you ARE more likely to get the bike you want, and enjoy it, and keep enjoying it.
"Right dear, I've been talking to a few folk on a forum... and they ALL say.... "Dont buy a bike!"
There's your opener... sounds promicing... gets her listening. she'll know there's something coming, but you'll have her attension and she'll be more open to suggestion.
"They say JUST do a course"
She'll frown, and ponder that; a course; OK, means riding a bike.... but only for a day or so.. not every day....
Get in quick whilst that settles with "It's just like the CBT, but a bit more, and ALL under the eye of an instructor telling me what to do"
Bang... supervised.. some-one will be watching over you.... she'll like that idea... AND its only for a day....... already agreed to that....... what's the catch....
"So i have found a three day DAS course....."
Oh... three days... well that's not so bad..... and it's not a bike... yet.....
"If I get along with it..... then I can take it from there.... forum Fellas say I probably wouldn't be able to get a licence that fast, so IF I like It I'll have to go back for more lessons" make SURE you use the word LESSONS!!!!!
"Then when the instructor says I am ready for tests, I can go see if I can get a licence......"
Licence... not bike... Oh--Kay...... still not bike... I can feel big bike coming... but I'm still listening....... just.....
"and IF I get a licence and am qualified to ride.... I can then start thinking about looking for a bike..... and I can STILL start with a little one..... I just wont have to have L-Plates on it"
Show her the sense, in baby steps, the RIGHT way; get trained, learn to ride, get a licence, push the bike back into the 'maybe' realms... put the foundation blocks in place; training, know-how, licence.... THEN you can go look for bikes, and they can still be littler ones.... they just don't have to be, but either way you have as much 'prep' to survive early riding as you can; and have her on side to do it, rather than restrained tolerance waiting to beat you when you are down, and obviouse flaw in the plan has given you a dose of road rash!
In short, stuff the bike... go get training. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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arry Super Spammer
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 18:13 - 22 Sep 2016 Post subject: |
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^^^
See, you thank him, and that's what happens.
wodge wrote: | It seems there is still no definitive answer as to what is happening at the start of 2017 with Euro4 125's as pretty much none of them seem compliant.
The Chinese distributors, Lexmoto, Sinnis etc may be twitching with the prospect of pre registering all their stock come December.
Maybe there will be fire sales, but who knows! |
Last rumour I heard was that while January 1st 2017 is supposed to be a drop-dead date for the Eurobollocks (just like 2016 was supposed to be one for post-2013 developed bikes) that DVLA is going to allow dealers yet another grace period to register non-bollocks stock.
Still, it can't last forever, and there will be plenty of non-bollocks bikes out there that they'll have to get rid of sooner rather than later. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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The Shaggy D.A. |
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The Shaggy D.A. Super Spammer
Joined: 12 Sep 2008 Karma :
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Posted: 18:21 - 22 Sep 2016 Post subject: |
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Best time to buy a bike is ALWAYS about a week after buying one. That's when you find plenty of cheaper, newer, lower mileage ones in showroom condition turn up. ____________________ Chances are quite high you are not in my Monkeysphere, and I don't care about you. Don't take it personally.
Currently : Royal Enfield 350 Meteor
Previously : CB100N > CB250RS > XJ900F > GT550 > GPZ750R/1000RX > AJS M16 > R100RT > Bullet 500 > CB500 > LS650P > Bullet Electra X & YBR125 > Bullet 350 "Superstar" & YBR125 Custom > Royal Enfield Classic 500 Despatch Limited Edition (28 of 200) & CB Two-Fifty Nighthawk > ER5 |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 7 years, 209 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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