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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 23:17 - 31 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

wr6133 wrote:
andyscooter wrote:
^^^^ test on auto still lets you ride a geared 125 with L plates


Pretty sure it doesn't as the A1 category will have an code on it indicating automatics only.


A2 used to let you still ride manual 125s as a provisinal licence holder

A lot of the scooter lads do it
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:26 - 31 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheSmiler wrote:
Might be the safest place to be but if people learning to drive want to learn how to use a motorway they can by doing extra after you have passed. I personally wouldn't like to be on the motorway riding along and then have some learner think he is god and move over when filtering. Or panic brake all because someone else braked. Doesn't sound very nice.

That all comes down to the instructor at the end of the day on what you see as competent. It all varies.

I do think people need a bit of motorway experience, it's not going to be on your first lesson Smile People need it drummed into them that only arseholes sit in the middle lane, and when you're joining you don't have priority Shocked
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Ste
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PostPosted: 00:27 - 01 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Learners can either learn how to drive on motorways when they've got an instructor in the car that's got dual controls or learners can learn how to drive on motorways by themselves after passing their test.

There's not a huge amount to learn anyway, they're not very different from dual carriageways so if someone can manage those then a motorway at a quiet time of day shouldn't be a problem.

Or just do what I did and take your L plates off before going to play at filtering on the M4 in friday evening rush hour traffic in the rain trying to keep up with someone on a ZX6R. Whistle

With the CBT if the first one is valid for two years and then any more are only valid for six months then that might provide some incentive for people not to stay on L plates forever and ever. Making a system like that with what would effectively be the introduction of a second type of CBT without having too many unnecessary layers of bureaucratic nonsense would be the tricky bit! Laughing

edit: typo.


Last edited by Ste on 01:23 - 01 Jan 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Dave70
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PostPosted: 01:02 - 01 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:


Or just do what I did and take your L plates off before going to play at filtering on the M4 in friday evening rush hour traffic in the rain trying to keep up with someone on a ZX6R. Whistle


Reminded me of when I lost my motorway virginity. Brought the 125 over from Manx land for the first time (my L plates had accidently fallen off) and took a wrong exit off a roundabout, that happened to be a slip road onto a motorway.

After the initial "oh sh!t" and riding on it for a few minutes, I realised there was absolutely nothing to worry about. It's a lot easier and safer than other roads.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 01:26 - 01 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Or just do what I did and take your L plates off before going to play at filtering on the M4 in friday evening rush hour traffic in the rain trying to keep up with someone on a ZX6R. Whistle

Without your Rainpal? Yeah right Rolling Eyes
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Wonko The Sane
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PostPosted: 01:57 - 01 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Learners can either learn how to drive on motorways when they've got an instructor in the car that's got dual controls or learners can learn how to drive on motorways by themselves after passing their test.

There's not a huge amount to learn anyway, they're not very different from dual carriageways so if someone can manage those then a motorway at a quiet time of day shouldn't be a problem.



I had a motorway lesson a month or two after I'd passed my test, would probably have been fine just getting on with it but nice to have someone confirming I was correct in how I was using the motorway.

Having had to join a motorway at 30mph the other day into normally moving traffic because the car in front wasn't going to go any faster on the slip road wasn't fun, realised what was happening so hung back to be able to get a better match of speed but still not great - guessing lack of experience or confidence for the driver in front, having to do it as a second part of your car tests wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion.
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Azoth
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PostPosted: 22:31 - 01 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

A seventh proposal from me: just as passing your test on a manual vs auto bike dictates your licence type, so should your licence restrict you to bikes fitted with rider AIDS if you passed your test on a bike fitted with them.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 01 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tawny wrote:
A seventh proposal from me: just as passing your test on a manual vs auto bike dictates your licence type, so should your licence restrict you to bikes fitted with rider AIDS if you passed your test on a bike fitted with them.

Well you'd have to have the same rules for cars where ABS's pretty much standard, and if we keep the EU regs ABS should become standard on bikes (unfortunately).

I've not ridden a bike with TC but with ABS you shouldn't be triggering it if you know how to use your brakes. TC in cages I've driven has always seemed too intrusive (so I've turned it off).
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asta1
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PostPosted: 02:08 - 02 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on how it was implemented, there doesn't seem to be anything excessively stupid in there. THe CBT stuff appears to be focussed primarily on the standard of teaching and standardisation of the currculum as opposed to making it harder for candidates, which based on the varying experiences of people on here, may well be considered necessary.

Also, as a rider currently on an A2 license who is looking at doing another set of tests to get the full A in a little over a year (on the same bike I did the A2 test on I might add), the possibility of doing a proper advanced rider training course instead doesn't seem a bad idea. I would almost certainly learn more useful skills than having to re-learn 'test standard' riding, which, lets be honest, nobody ever uses again after the test...
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 02 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
Depending on how it was implemented, there doesn't seem to be anything excessively stupid in there. THe CBT stuff appears to be focussed primarily on the standard of teaching and standardisation of the currculum

The curriculum already is standard and well defined. That doesn't mean that it's followed, as we often hear.

Mine was pretty good, but I managed to skip element D (on road prep) entirely.

More details today:

https://despatch.blog.gov.uk/2016/12/30/our-proposals-to-improve-motorcycle-training-a-detailed-look/

Arrow No distinction between DAS and CBT instructors (long overdue).
Arrow Merging on-site "training" (this is bike) and "riding" (now ride bike) together.
Arrow Exclamation Mandatory minimum clothing Exclamation Presumably this list that they've already invented - legislation by the back door. Tut Tut
Arrow Steering taught as a specific skill. (Countersteering? Knee down?)
Arrow Filtering covered in theory.
Arrow More regular assessment of instructors. At the moment, only CBT instruction is assessed, which has always seemed a bit daft.
Arrow And the long awaited training upgrade route. This was always explicitly allowed by the 3DLD. It could be done and dusted in a day, like a CBT+, which is great for riders, but sadface for instructor income. DVSA could get shot of some examiners, although they might just be shifted to assessment of instructors.
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Azoth
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PostPosted: 14:07 - 02 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Grade 6/7 policy guy also says:

"We’re proposing to introduce mandatory quality assurance checks for instructors who provide any road-based motorcycle instruction – not just CBT. This would provide assurance that all training is being provided to the required standard.

...

We’re also proposing that an instructor who fails a standards check would have up to 2 more attempts to reach the standard."

Directly hitting not only the CBT cowboys (some of which may have the wherewithal to take cover under this shotgun fire) but anyone who offers to supply 'advanced' motorcycle riding training.

The law as it stands would allow me, someone with no instructor accreditation at all, to provide road-based advanced rider training to anyone who's legal on the road.

I don't think there's much wrong with the current state of play with regard to advanced rider trainers and trainees. In general, trainees are people interested in advanced riding techniques who already know how to ride and keep themselves basically safe, and the trainers may be entrepreneurs or else well-meaning people looking for fulfilment or camaraderie. In other words, the current situation isn't problematic.

This 'proposal' may be the low-hanging fruit intended for MAG to jump on and bravely spear with an olive fork, mighty and effective police and army and MI5 they are (not)... I take this to mean that the proposals in pictograms shall be implemented in full, regardless of what anyone says, but the Pan-riding CB-radio lot will achieve the retraction of this particular element ostensibly by virtue of their efficacy, determination, professionalism and all the other qualities they clearly don't have but deem important... Just a guess.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:50 - 02 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^
Already rated Insightful, but deserves a double-plus.
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TheSmiler
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PostPosted: 18:53 - 02 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding these proposals any one have any ideas when they could be possibly implemented Question Guessing end of 17 beginning of 18.

M.C wrote:

I do think people need a bit of motorway experience, it's not going to be on your first lesson Smile People need it drummed into them that only arseholes sit in the middle lane, and when you're joining you don't have priority Shocked


It doesn't really matter I'd rather the training be done as an after lesson that you have to take after you pass your test. Bit like mandatory pass plus. Using a motorway is common sense; heck my first time on it was on the m6 in rain and filtering through Birmingham.

If you don't know how to drive on a motorway by now then you really should re think driving. Most people ride in the second lane as an excuse because they don't like following trucks or they are inconsiderate idiots.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:37 - 02 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheSmiler wrote:

It doesn't really matter I'd rather the training be done as an after lesson that you have to take after you pass your test. Bit like mandatory pass plus. Using a motorway is common sense; heck my first time on it was on the m6 in rain and filtering through Birmingham.

If you don't know how to drive on a motorway by now then you really should re think driving. Most people ride in the second lane as an excuse because they don't like following trucks or they are inconsiderate idiots.

How would you make people take the additional lessons? I know some people don't like being in lane 1 due to the grooves you get in some places, but I don't see that as an excuse to not use the lane.

I assume people don't want to get involved with those who think they have priority when joining, maybe with training you could solve both problems? Smile
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TheSmiler
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PostPosted: 22:52 - 02 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
How would you make people take the additional lessons? I know some people don't like being in lane 1 due to the grooves you get in some places, but I don't see that as an excuse to not use the lane.

I assume people don't want to get involved with those who think they have priority when joining, maybe with training you could solve both problems? Smile


One way you could enforce it is they don't get the pass certificate until they have done the additional lessons. That wouldn't really work so instead have the driving licence in two parts. One for the normal roads then an extra test for motorway driving. Similar to how they have done it for motorcycles that way you can kind of make sure they are suitable on both. Not fool proof as any idiot can get lucky on a day but still gives you some idea. My problem with having it down to the instructor viewing your competence is do you really trust every driving instructor to judge it correctly.

You wouldn't be able to do it in one whole test especially near London as you would get on the m25 and be stuck in a car park for 2 hours. Great for clutch control not much good for anything else.

If you are ever coming down the m5/m6 they have some roadworks on at the moment and it's almost impossible to ride in lane 2 or 3 safely because there is a massive groove going down the middle. It's same near Stoke On Trent on the A50 to derby. They have a concrete part that has a massive groove down the middle which makes riding dreadful.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:07 - 03 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

A two part test isn't a bad idea actually Smile Grooves in the road are really annoying, bus lanes can be bad, but what really gets me is horizontal bumps going across the road. There's a couple of places on the north circular where I get air in my seat, and there's a bumpy section of the M25 as well.
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TheSmiler
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PostPosted: 01:03 - 03 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
A two part test isn't a bad idea actually Smile Grooves in the road are really annoying, bus lanes can be bad, but what really gets me is horizontal bumps going across the road. There's a couple of places on the north circular where I get air in my seat, and there's a bumpy section of the M25 as well.


Cheers I think it's the only way that truly makes sense, if I had some say in the matter I'd also find some way of making sure they are learning in most weathers as well. Someone who passes on a 1 week fast course in July will face driving in heavy rain for there first time. Being with someone that has experience would only be advantageous in my opinion.

Bus lanes I don't find too bad same with manholes on corners if we are going down that route. However regarding the bumps in the road, I always take care on new roads. But I take even more care; slight reduction in speed and a second take in of my surrounding near roads that I know have extreme bumps.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:13 - 03 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

BCF wrote:
Mandatory motorway drive-riding naow

Racists.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/UK_motorways_map_2016.svg/350px-UK_motorways_map_2016.svg.png
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 19:39 - 03 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was going to aay what about the norfolkians
They has no motoway
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arry
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PostPosted: 13:55 - 04 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

secretagentmole wrote:
My CBT was a joke. half an hour in the car park at King's Lynn Speedway carpark, then rushed back to the house/office, sent out accompanying a 50cc scooter, so restricted to 30mph. CBT written out then taken outside to do the emergency stop as they had realised they had not done it!

Sadly I did not learn from my experience and did lessons with the same bike school. I changed bike schools after an hours lesson was over in half an hour and that included a coffee!

So part of the problem might involve getting bike instructors to do a proper job in the first damned place!


So you reported them, right?
https://www.gov.uk/motorcycle-cbt/complain
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 14:24 - 04 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's something I don't like. They use the position that 21% of the deaths/severe incidents are motorcyclists is thus equal to the number of accidents that motorcyclists are involved in.

BUT from .gov's publication RAS20001:

2015 has 398 deaths (13%) by motorcycles of the total 2889 road deaths (including cyclists 113).

Of reported accidents of all severities total, there were 20,996 by motorcycles of the 257,845 total. So motorcycles are involved in 8.14 % reported accidents. Cyclists are involved in 7.54 %.

So the issue of overrepresentation still exists but this could be due to the fact that having any collision on a motorcycle is much more dangerous than that of a car. Even a small nudge at 15 mph, which some car drivers could shrug off and sort outside of the reporting, could severely damage a motorcyclist.

Silly number pushing but it makes it a bit less daunting. From these figures, if you are involved in a collision that is reportable you have a 1 in 53 chance of dying. If you are a cyclist and you have a collision that is reportable, you have a 1 in 172 chance of dying (not going as fast init, you'll still die if you get squished).

Somewhere in the middle is cars, if you're in a collision that is reportable you have a 1 in 106 chance of dying.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:56 - 04 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, and there's an argument to be made that dead is better than Pol'd quadraspazzed, for the family and the Homeland Economy.

But it doesn't make us less dead. We need to be betterer than car drivers per mile.
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 15:28 - 04 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
True, and there's an argument to be made that dead is better than Pol'd quadraspazzed, for the family and the Homeland Economy.

But it doesn't make us less dead. We need to be betterer than car drivers per mile.


True.

I find the numbers don't always recognise the extra factors that can contribute to a motorcycle accident. What sort of correction factor could be attributed to diesel spills, for example? The vehicles (cars and motorcycles) use the same roadway but they have two very different responses to the environment.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 19:40 - 04 Jan 2017    Post subject: Re: New Learner Proposals Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
That stat gets on my nerves a bit, remove seat belts and crumple zones from cars and they'd have much worse KSI stats.

Whistle

I do see the additional risks of being on 2 wheels, the main one being the invisibility factor, the way cagers seem to be pre-programmed to only look for other cages. You get the same thing whilst cycling, but a lot of the time it's because they think f**k it its only a cyclist.
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