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Anti-News: deafening silence on Euro4 bikes

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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:06 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Anti-News: deafening silence on Euro4 bikes Reply with quote

Just thought I'd note that neither Honda nor Yamaha seem to have announced a Eurobollocks compliant replacement for the CB125F, MSX, YBR125 or their other existing models. At a minimum, they'll need discs front and rear in order to have ABS or (more likely) combined braking, as well as the rest of the Bollocks (Euro 4, OBD, Nanny Chips, anti-tamper).

Likewise, most of Lexmoto's currently advertised range is still pre-Bollocks [UPDATE - looks like they did a massive pre-registration]. WK, Sinnis, and the rest too. Suzuki's Van Van is fit for the Skip Skip.

Anything over 125 needs ABS, right now, plus OBD. The few A2 bikes need anti-tamper. Everything, without exception, needs to be Euro 4 emissions compliant.

As usual, there's not a word on MCN or VisorDown. Yes, some pre-Bollocks bikes can still be registered and sold, but not a huge amount, and not indefinitely. Given the inertia and ignorance in the industry, I expect it will come as a big surprise to some dealers and importers when the DVLA eventually start knocking back new registrations.

Then what?

Has anyone heard anything about any major manufacturer's - actually, any manufacturer's - plans for getting rid of their stock, and switching to fully EuroBollocks compliant bikes? I've not heard a squeak, other than Lexmoto saying that they've had problems sourcing any.
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 09:06 - 13 Jan 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Rufous
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PostPosted: 15:27 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is that the Euro4 models or adaptations are all being treated as a Manhattan Project. VD and MCN don't wear the trousers in the sado-masochistic relationship they have with the manufacturers, so even if they know something, they'll know nothing until it's allowed.
Meanwhile, between themselves, the manufacturers most likely have entered into lots of oligarchical agreements in breach of competition law, to milk this market to the maximum. Returns on their current noncompliant models have to be fully exploited right now. If I'm right, they'll start offering minor alterations, decals and handle grip colour options on all the noncompliant models very soon.
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Kris
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PostPosted: 16:03 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything from MAG?

Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kris wrote:
Anything from MAG?

Laughing

"Funny". Wink
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Vracktal
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was there ever an actual dictat on what form anti-tamper needed to take on A2 bikes? After all, without a clear minimum standard or guidelines surely a manufacturer could just make a token gesture and put a sticker on the frame saying "NO TINKER PLZ Hand Tut Tut " or something and call it a day?
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Piercee100
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PostPosted: 18:19 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was looking at buying a cheap scooter for work, and so looked at the Honda Vison 110. The dealer I looked at was selling 2016 run out models, but there was a new 2017 version on the way with stop/start and other Euro crap onboard.

Here you go-

http://www.maidstonehonda.co.uk/honda/new/bikes/scooters/2017honvision110.htm

Gaining water cooling Ooooo!
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 18:51 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honda wrote:
equipped with Idling Stop

Do they mean as in what cars have? Come to a halt and the engine cuts out Shocked
Sound bloody dangerous on a bike, being able to instantly get moving from a standstill can be a life saver in commuter traffic.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 19:33 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop start works well on the Honda PCX which is my only experience of it.

As for Euro 4 bikes, maybe the reason that the big manufacturers have not announced new compliant bikes yet is that they are not going to replace them? If they won't replace 600cc sports bikes, then why bother replacing cheap commuters, especially if they have to add 500 or more to the price to do so?

I'm sure the Japanese might leave small capacity and low cost commuter bikes to the Chinqs at some point, as they will be able to do it better, and cheaper with more style and trendy gimmicks than the Japanese sooner or later. People are coming round to Chinese bikes as they slowly become everywhere.

Finally I'd be happy if the big Japanese four don't make any of these new Euro compliant bikes at all, as ABS, CBS, and anti tamper crap, all sound as dull and boring as fuck.

Buy and fix up late 80's and Early 90's 125's if you want one, I think they are the future tbh!
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 19:36 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy_Pagin wrote:
Honda wrote:
equipped with Idling Stop

Do they mean as in what cars have? Come to a halt and the engine cuts out Shocked
Sound bloody dangerous on a bike, being able to instantly get moving from a standstill can be a life saver in commuter traffic.


You can it works really well

I could still pull away from traffic with it on
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:20 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Piercee100 wrote:
http://www.maidstonehonda.co.uk/honda/new/bikes/scooters/2017honvision110.htm

Neat, good to see they've not totally dropped the ball. Honda have had a hard-on for CBS for a while.

Huh... I see the Vision actually still has a rear drum, but with CBS. That's surprising, but I guess if the required standard is (as above) a sticking saying "Has CBS, legit" then that's good enough.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 01:23 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:

I'm sure the Japanese might leave small capacity and low cost commuter bikes to the Chinqs at some point, as they will be able to do it better, and cheaper with more style and trendy gimmicks than the Japanese sooner or later. People are coming round to Chinese bikes as they slowly become everywhere.

I thought Yamaha were laughing all the way to the bank with the R125 etc. Surely for 4.5K they can fit in linked brakes Smile
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 09:10 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Piercee100 wrote:
http://www.maidstonehonda.co.uk/honda/new/bikes/scooters/2017honvision110.htm

Neat, good to see they've not totally dropped the ball. Honda have had a hard-on for CBS for a while.

Huh... I see the Vision actually still has a rear drum, but with CBS. That's surprising, but I guess if the required standard is (as above) a sticking saying "Has CBS, legit" then that's good enough.



my pcx had cbs and a drum as well
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:39 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
I thought Yamaha were laughing all the way to the bank with the R125 etc. Surely for 4.5K they can fit in linked brakes Smile

No need, it already has ABS.

The long term problem Honda and Yamaha ceding the low end commuter geared-bike market to Lexmoto is that it would allow them to expand and move up-market. Their Euro4 EFI CBS Viper (the only bike they've announced to date, AFAIK) is going to come in north of 2K, which is uncharted territory for them.

But if it's that or a 4K+ MT or Duke, what is Sammy Seventeen going to go for? The Viper does look nice, and it even has a MP3 player for bangin choons.

I'm not saying that we're seeing a repeat of when British manufactures got blindsided by "Jap Crap", but Honda should be aware of their own history and know that if you can get Yoofs on to your brand, you can upsell later.

Lexmoto are a long way from that. For one thing, they don't have bigger bikes, but they are available. And they'd need to sort their dealer chain. But it all starts with the 125s.

Maybe it's the case that the Japanese genuinely just don't care that much about the Euro market for geared bikes. Most of Jeanny Continental prefers scootays anyway.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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SophR so good
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PostPosted: 22:44 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:
Was there ever an actual dictat on what form anti-tamper needed to take on A2 bikes? After all, without a clear minimum standard or guidelines surely a manufacturer could just make a token gesture and put a sticker on the frame saying "NO TINKER PLZ Hand Tut Tut " or something and call it a day?


It's meant to be if you fuck about with it, the ECU generates a fault code to tell the mechanic that you don't ever take your bike to to fix it. No biggie tbh.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 23:37 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a reliable list of Euro4 compliant bikes anywhere, or is it just down to whether or not the manufacturers mention it on their websites?

Harley don't mention anything to do with commie Euro environmental law, surprisingly enough.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 23:52 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Roger is right in that the Japanese probably don't care too much about the low capacity geared naked market for Europe.

If competition with 1/2- 2/3 priced Chinese bikes is reducing their profits and market share, they can quite easily concentrate their efforts and resources on markets that the Chinese brands can't compete with or arnt interested in.

So superbikes, and adventure bikes are probably where they can have it all to themselves and not need to compromise on quality or spec to keeping pricing competitive?

Oh and though it's a tiny market, the Japanese are definitely not 125cc mad as they are missing out on selling expensive KTM 125EXC 40bhp supermoto bikes to all the crazy 16 year old Italian kids that buy them for getting to school on. Laughing
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M.C
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PostPosted: 01:44 - 13 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
I thought Yamaha were laughing all the way to the bank with the R125 etc. Surely for 4.5K they can fit in linked brakes Smile

No need, it already has ABS.

Hmm appears it was an option before *sniggers*, and they still list weights for ABS/non-abs versions on the Yamaha site. I wonder if it's still an option (want one as a track bike innit).
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:23 - 13 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not aware of any exemptions for track or offroad bikes. I guess if it's never registered it's not a problem, but we might get Vnucked on that.

SophR so good wrote:
Vracktal wrote:
Was there ever an actual dictat on what form anti-tamper needed to take on A2 bikes? After all, without a clear minimum standard or guidelines surely a manufacturer could just make a token gesture and put a sticker on the frame saying "NO TINKER PLZ Hand Tut Tut " or something and call it a day?

It's meant to be if you fuck about with it, the ECU generates a fault code to tell the mechanic that you don't ever take your bike to to fix it. No biggie tbh.

Agreed, that's supposedly the initial requirement for the electronic anti-tamper. The idea is that in future, Nanny Chip 2.0 will actually cripple the bike if it thinks you've tampered with it. I know how crazy that sounds, but ... Brussels.

There's also supposed to be physical anti-tamper, of some undefined form.

Oh, and as well as Euro 4 out of the crate, they're supposed to have low evaporation fuel systems and are supposed to maintain low emissions for X kilo-miles (I forget, or don't care, about the exact distance).

You may notice a lot of supposition in there. AFAICT, this is all self certification, so may be honoured more in the breach than the observance.

Robby wrote:
Is there a reliable list of Euro4 compliant bikes anywhere, or is it just down to whether or not the manufacturers mention it on their websites?

Not that I've seen. DVLA considers each vehicle individually - you're supposedly required to present a fat stack of certificates when you register a vehicle.

I say supposedly, yet again, because they were supposed to have been requiring low emissions and always-on-lights from the start of 2016 on all bikes, but didn't bother because... none of your business, proles.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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Robby
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PostPosted: 20:32 - 13 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

So in that case, if I buy a brand new large bike on a 2017 plate, it will be considered Euro4 for DVLA purposes - whether or not it actually meets the standard?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 22:27 - 13 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd expect so, regardless of whether it actually is Euro4, or whether it's grandfathered in under the exemption for a limited amount of new-old-stock, or for small volume manufacturers like Black Douglas.

TfL suppose that every bike registered after July 1st 2007 is Euro 3 for ULEZ purposes, as that's when the DVLA was supposed to be enforcing that standard.

So, my 2008 registered Enfield with Amal carb and decatted exhaust (I doubt it would pass any emissions test) wouldn't attract the daily mugging, but a 2006 ER6 (Euro 3 compliant by design) would.

It's a ridiculous farce, but... DVLA.
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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craigT19
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PostPosted: 10:24 - 14 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

My bikes euro 4 compliant and doesn't have link brakes (registered june 2016) when did they bring that in?

Also has no anti tamper bollocks on the ecu etc but then i assume thats because it isnt a restricted power bike A2 ready or what ever its called these days.
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mas101
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PostPosted: 10:41 - 14 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
I'm not aware of any exemptions for track or offroad bikes. I guess if it's never registered it's not a problem, but we might get Vnucked on that.


I thought that off-road bikes were going to be allowed to have a switch fitted to disable the abs? Only while actually off road, obvs.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:58 - 14 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

craigT19 wrote:
My bikes euro 4 compliant and doesn't have link brakes (registered june 2016) when did they bring that in?

If it was a model originally introduced before some point in 2013, then CBS/ABS is mandatory from 1st January 2017. If it was introduced after the 2013 date, then then it was supposed to have had all the bollocks from 1st January 2016. All bikes, no exceptions, were supposed to have had low evaporation fuel systems and always-on lights since January 1st 2016. DVLA (very very reluctantly) confirmed that to me, but have been resolutely ignoring it up to now because "ur mum" or similar.

Given that there are still exemptions for a limited number of pre-Bollocks bikes to be registered, it'll be interested to see when or even if they start knocking back new registrations. I honestly doubt whether they know, or care, enough to do so.


mas101 wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
I'm not aware of any exemptions for track or offroad bikes. I guess if it's never registered it's not a problem, but we might get Vnucked on that.

I thought that off-road bikes were going to be allowed to have a switch fitted to disable the abs? Only while actually off road, obvs.

Yes, but they still have to have it fitted. Anything that you want to road-register does. Presumably. Wink
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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Rufous
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PostPosted: 14:36 - 14 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that it's Jan 2017 and Euro 4 is in force, if I were to put on skinny jeans and an artifically weathered Lewis/Belstaff jacket and shoes and an open-faced helmet, like a complete t****er, and then took an angle grinder to wantonly hack the subframe off a perfectly good GT550 from the 80s, what would happen if I were to take it for Single Vehicle Approval and Q-plate registration? Would I need ABS and have to pass the current emissions limits, and if not, would my monstrosity be treated as a pre- or post-2008 bike for ULEZ purposes?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 16 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that none of the bollocks applies to MSVA and small-volume manufacturers. Black Douglas, for example, are still offering drum-braked carb fed CG125-copy-engined bikes, for the modest sum of 10K or so.

The threatened ULEZ appears only to be based on registration date as far as we've heard, so you should be fine. Best if we keep Shhh! about that one.
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