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pepperami
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PostPosted: 20:07 - 18 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
GT200Fan79 wrote:

It's stopping kids getting on decent bikes that is killing biking. With the current licence regulations i would buy a car.


Well I never thought I would agree with you Eh? but I agree with you.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 20:33 - 18 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
pepperami wrote:
GT200Fan79 wrote:

It's stopping kids getting on decent bikes that is killing biking. With the current licence regulations i would buy a car.


Well I never thought I would agree with you Eh? but I agree with you.


Said from the perspective of those with plenty of experience, this makes sense. But if those same people try to imagine they've never ridden before, it has to be borne in mind that even a quite modestly powered bike *feels* WAYYY faster and more exciting than a car ever can.

If neither of you had ever had bikes and got on an SV tomorrow you'd fucking shit your knickers. Most would on half that bhp. I appreciate 17 year olds can't actually ride SVs etc - but they don't have to wait THAT long before they can get on bikes that are as fast as most cars yet feel at least twice as powerful.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 21:10 - 18 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Andy_Pagin wrote:
rhys99 wrote:
Does this not prove that the Licensing system does not work? and that in fact if you're riding a 125 you're most likely to die than anyone else? personally i think from 17 you should be able to ride a 250cc bike and then at 19 be restricted to 100bhp or something along those lines. It's hardly fair that a 17 year old can drive a 1.0 corsa which is faster than a 125 and will happily sit on motorways all day.
It demonstrates that if your young, with practically no road experience of any kind and overloaded with teenage know-it-all enthusiasm you're more likely to be killed. Your proposal to let said teens loose on machines twice as powerful is hardly likely to improve things.

I thought the peaks were youngsters and middle-aged (born again) bikers, suggesting it's inexperience (or a lack of recent experience) that kills bikers.

I agree with the 250cc idea along with a bhp limit.
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rhys99
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PostPosted: 22:38 - 18 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Andy_Pagin wrote:
rhys99 wrote:
Does this not prove that the Licensing system does not work? and that in fact if you're riding a 125 you're most likely to die than anyone else? personally i think from 17 you should be able to ride a 250cc bike and then at 19 be restricted to 100bhp or something along those lines. It's hardly fair that a 17 year old can drive a 1.0 corsa which is faster than a 125 and will happily sit on motorways all day.
It demonstrates that if your young, with practically no road experience of any kind and overloaded with teenage know-it-all enthusiasm you're more likely to be killed. Your proposal to let said teens loose on machines twice as powerful is hardly likely to improve things.
I didn't mean allowing 250cc bikes on a CBT, i meant 250cc with a license from the age of 17. CBT should be scrapped or used for 50cc bikes only.
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SuperMike
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PostPosted: 00:30 - 19 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
rhys99 wrote:
Does this not prove that the Licensing system does not work? and that in fact if you're riding a 125 you're most likely to die than anyone else? personally i think from 17 you should be able to ride a 250cc bike and then at 19 be restricted to 100bhp or something along those lines. It's hardly fair that a 17 year old can drive a 1.0 corsa which is faster than a 125 and will happily sit on motorways all day.


It's an interesting way of looking at it I suppose, but also from those graphs there is a bit of a spike in the early and mid 40's age range. Suggests probably some new bikers got onboard a 1000cc and put it into a wall at speed.

As for a 1.0 corsa thrashing a 125, I disagree. I had a 1.3 litre polo as my first car back in the 90's and that thing would do 70 downhill with a tailwind and not a lot more. My 125 scooter used to show a clean pair of heels to most small cars - up to 50mph at least.

I do remember being young and I remember how unfair everything seemed - paying loads more insurance, not being able to have a Cosworth, wanting to turbo charge my polo. I dropped hundreds on that car - K&N racing air filter, big exhaust, alloys. Made naff all difference of course but I felt like I was a race driver. I then got a Golf GTI at the age of 20 when I came into an inheritance. That was nearly the end of my life - at a car cruise, racing someone in a BMW something or other, two abreast up the middle of Chelsea because we both wanted to win. One of the other boy racers coming the other way tried an overtake and I had already shut my eyes waiting for impact. Clipped my wing mirror. I was going about 80 ish from memory. He must have been doing similar. That would have been it.

I can but imagine what I would have been like on a big bike at that age. I genuinely don't think I would be alive today. This is somebody who to date has 21 years NCB on a car and 5 years NCB on a bike, so I wouldn't say I am a complete tool behind the wheel, but that is because I was made to wait before getting on or in anything that could 0 - 62 in under 5s.

Don't know if anyone else on here has had a similar epiphany!?
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rhys99
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PostPosted: 00:42 - 19 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
SuperMike wrote:


As for a 1.0 corsa thrashing a 125, I disagree. I had a 1.3 litre polo as my first car back in the 90's and that thing would do 70 downhill with a tailwind and not a lot more. My 125 scooter used to show a clean pair of heels to most small cars - up to 50mph at least.


An old 1.0 55hp micra will do 100mph~, modern 1.2 corsa ( 85hp )will do 110mph ish.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:59 - 19 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't doubt the Corsa as I've driven one, but the Micra? Laughing
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SuperMike
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PostPosted: 12:43 - 19 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
rhys99 wrote:
SuperMike wrote:


As for a 1.0 corsa thrashing a 125, I disagree. I had a 1.3 litre polo as my first car back in the 90's and that thing would do 70 downhill with a tailwind and not a lot more. My 125 scooter used to show a clean pair of heels to most small cars - up to 50mph at least.


An old 1.0 55hp micra will do 100mph~, modern 1.2 corsa ( 85hp )will do 110mph ish.


Here you go. Battle of the titans!! Laughing Laughing

https://youtu.be/YgDewjouL3M

I think we could probably agree that most 17 year olds can't get into a Ferrari etc as although theoretically they could, the cost to entry is too high. They could buy an old RS escort or something, but again the insurance is going to be crippling. I have a mate who's son just turned 17 and he is paying over 2k for a ten year old Ford Fiesta. Most will have an old banger or will share mums golf tdi or something similar if they are lucky. A few get brought a Mercedes AMG by daddy but let's ignore those outliers.

I think restricting by law for motorbikes is the same as above in that youngsters in cars are restricted by cost. I would be very much in favour of a power restriction for cars in the first few years too to stop these stories of daddies little princess ploughing a Range Rover into a shopping precinct.

I get the frustration but a 125 is still enough to have fun on, and the lack of being able to hit three digit speeds might just keep a few alive to buy their first firblade.
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Conzar
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PostPosted: 12:56 - 19 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I do feel sorry for new bikers with the current selection of trabble bikes on offer...

Sorry happy i did mine on the 33bhp law Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:32 - 19 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Stricter licensing laws contribute to the rise of bike life?

The more you tighten your grip, Whitehall, the more #Baklahfers will slip through your fingers.
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Waaarrrggghhh
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PostPosted: 00:38 - 20 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think a good compromise between the age restrictions and making biking more accessible is to keep 17 year olds restricted to 125cc, and then when they are 19, they can take a CBT-style course on a 250cc. At the end the instructor will decide if they are safe/responsible enough to ride this. When they are 21, they can do the same course on a big bike. So no more stupid tests and massive test fees.

Because as far as I can tell, a 17 year old that passed the A1 light bike test has demonstrated the same level of road knowledge as a 24 year old that is doing direct access on a 600cc machine.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:58 - 20 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Waaarrrggghhh wrote:
I think a good compromise between the age restrictions and making biking more accessible is to keep 17 year olds restricted to 125cc, and then when they are 19, they can take a CBT-style course on a 250cc. At the end the instructor will decide if they are safe/responsible enough to ride this. When they are 21, they can do the same course on a big bike. So no more stupid tests and massive test fees.

That's pretty much what the DfT are now proposing (395cc+ bike at 19 though), although due to the exact wording of the 3DLD it may only apply to going from A2 to A at 21, not A1 to A2.

Which is still daft as a brush, since surely the goal should be to get 17 year olds to get training or demonstrate their competence ASAP.
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Waaarrrggghhh
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PostPosted: 00:22 - 22 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Waaarrrggghhh wrote:
I think a good compromise between the age restrictions and making biking more accessible is to keep 17 year olds restricted to 125cc, and then when they are 19, they can take a CBT-style course on a 250cc. At the end the instructor will decide if they are safe/responsible enough to ride this. When they are 21, they can do the same course on a big bike. So no more stupid tests and massive test fees.

That's pretty much what the DfT are now proposing (395cc+ bike at 19 though), although due to the exact wording of the 3DLD it may only apply to going from A2 to A at 21, not A1 to A2.

Which is still daft as a brush, since surely the goal should be to get 17 year olds to get training or demonstrate their competence ASAP.


So theDfT proposes this, but is it ever going to happen? probably not.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 01:55 - 22 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
SuperMike wrote:

I get the frustration but a 125 is still enough to have fun on, and the lack of being able to hit three digit speeds might just keep a few alive to buy their first firblade.

I didn't realise how pathetic the 0-60 times were, I mean obviously I had one and I was bored of it after a few months, but you're looking at more than a dozen seconds to 60 Shocked

You can have fun as they're still bikes, but personally on A roads they weren't fun, and I shudder at the prospect of going down a motorway on one. Also if you do like to overtake then the lack of power can actually be quite dangerous.

I honestly don't think I could do 2 years on a 125, one was more than enough Smile
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 08:51 - 22 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I found my 125 was ace for two things - city and local. The latter consisting of lots of miles of very rural lanes, usually single track - sometimes with grass growing up the middle. The vanvan was arguably one of the best bikes there is for both kinds of riding. However, getting between the city and the countryside - which I also did a fair bit of - it was much less capable. Even that didn't bother me though because I'd always do my best to let traffic come by me. Never really had a problem with it tbh.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 09:46 - 22 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Even coming back to a 125 (test retake, lots of bad habits), I don't really have that many issues. If I am causing a queue (NSL, uphill), I pull over where I can and let traffic pass. I ride the little thing all over the place, and just accept that it will/allow for it taking longer.

NSL hills are the only place I get properly frustrated, the rest of the time, it's probably daft for other traffic to go faster and I'm not causing any issues. You get the odd fuckwit doing it, but you can usually spot them working up to it in your mirrors.
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mas101
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PostPosted: 10:51 - 22 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
I don't doubt the Corsa as I've driven one, but the Micra? Laughing


I'm told that they're OK once you remove the 80yr old flat cap restrictor thats fitted to the drivers seat.
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Waaarrrggghhh
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PostPosted: 10:58 - 22 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
SuperMike wrote:

I get the frustration but a 125 is still enough to have fun on, and the lack of being able to hit three digit speeds might just keep a few alive to buy their first firblade.

I didn't realise how pathetic the 0-60 times were, I mean obviously I had one and I was bored of it after a few months, but you're looking at more than a dozen seconds to 60 Shocked

You can have fun as they're still bikes, but personally on A roads they weren't fun, and I shudder at the prospect of going down a motorway on one. Also if you do like to overtake then the lack of power can actually be quite dangerous.

I honestly don't think I could do 2 years on a 125, one was more than enough Smile


I took my YBR125 on a long stretch of the M1 on Friday and it was absolutely fine. The weather was good which obviously played a major part.

The important thing to keep in mind is that motorway roads are far, far more quality than A roads. They are smoother and flatter, so my YBR had no problem getting up to 65-70mph, and felt very smooth. Sure I can't overtake anyone but that's fine.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 22 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Waaarrrggghhh wrote:
I took my YBR125 on a long stretch of the M1 on Friday and it was absolutely fine. The weather was good which obviously played a major part.

The important thing to keep in mind is that motorway roads are far, far more quality than A roads. They are smoother and flatter, so my YBR had no problem getting up to 65-70mph, and felt very smooth. Sure I can't overtake anyone but that's fine.

For me that's the problem, throw in a strong headwind and you're looking at 50ish, and even on a good day you don't have the power to get yourself out of trouble.

It's why personally I don't see the point of the A1 license, at least with the old system you had (up to) 33bhp getting you a bike consistently capable of motorway journeys, although having ridden a 33bhp restricted bike I'd still ideally want a little more Smile
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:16 - 22 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I actually think that 250cc or thereabouts was a good size for learners. Part of the learner danger is that they are restricted to machines that struggle to keep up to normal traffic speeds in certain situations (I'm not talking about motorways). Yes, theoretically a 125 is capable of 60-70mph, but given things like a strong headwind, steep incline etc, it's often not realistic to expect them to achieve that speed when other traffic can. So you finish up slowing the vehicles behind you and this creates frustration for other road users (rightly or wrongly), and the potential for accidents rises. To genuinely be capable of keeping to traffic speeds on a main A road, the bike should have an actual available top speed of about 90mph in my view. This wouldn't make it too powerful for new riders.

The problem we had when the 250 laws were changed was that there were these looney two strokes which had sudden and rapid acceleration that could catch out a more novice rider. But those days are gone now, and four strokes are a lot tamer, so why not go back to a 250 limit for learners?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:28 - 22 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
If we're going to have soLo Learner riding at all, I'm fine with restricting it to 125cc / 11kW. Allowing 250 and 30hp is just about enough that you'd never really have to get any training or pass a couple of simple tests, and even more folk would just rub along on their provisionaL entitlement indefinitely.

The problem I have with the current system is that there's very little incentive for 17 year olds to do anything beyond the CBT. We could, even under Eurorules, allow A2 at 18 rather than 19, although strictly speaking we'd then have to push A1 down to 16.
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Conzar
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PostPosted: 08:42 - 23 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
although having ridden a 33bhp restricted bike I'd still ideally want a little more Smile


You must be pulling your hair out then with a MT-03 Laughing
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 11:53 - 23 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
it's the old one
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