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UK Labour shortages - Key areas.

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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:41 - 20 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:


Probably all gone to the same fantasy land that the Junior Snowflakes all left for.


Arrow 84% in 2010 carried on directly to specialist training. Now only 50.4% do so.

Arrow Also, those quitting medicine or career breaking rose from 4.7% to 13.7%.

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Derivative
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PostPosted: 20:19 - 20 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The problem is that expectations about working conditions/incentives have been raised unrealistically so that even low Wattage Lumen Brit brains think that anything that won't pay for the finance on at least an A3 is for mugs, innit.


Mmm.

But it is for mugs, no? Seems pretty daft to work for a crap wage to me. Not sure why people do it. I tend to think it's because they're mugs.

Quite useful that they do, though. Would be a pain if everything I bought cost about 5x as much.

Sometimes I think I'm living in some sort of stage performance. No, I'm pretty sure I am. Manager Bob pays Lackey Dave 1/5th his own salary and thinks 'cheers mate, dunno what I'd do without you'. Indeed.

Then again, same thing all the way up the scale. Bossman wouldn't get out of bed for Manager's wage.

So what are the correct expectations and why? Does it even matter?

The problem, if there is one, is that our continued existence is basically reliant on unemployment as a stick. If you fix it then everyone can suddenly demand a decent wage and it's not a decent wage any more because you can't pay the lessers to do stuff for you.

So we have unemployment as a stick and bennies to stop the riots and it mostly works if you're a winner.

No, I don't know of a better way to do it either. Seems preferable to the alternative of bashing people with hammers if they don't do what you want. Well, we still do I guess, it's just a bit more indirect.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 21:08 - 20 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:

Seems pretty daft to work for a crap wage to me. Not sure why people do it. I tend to think it's because they're mugs.


Aye well you're alright, Jack. What about the mugs who don't have any choice?
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 22:44 - 20 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Maybe some people have self respect and ambition? Everyone has to start somewhere


This seems like a bit of a non-sequitur.

I think you're comparing min wage to benefits. No argument there. I'm talking about people taking the low paid jobs on a sustained basis.

That the world functions because most settle. If they didn't, we'd be fucked.

mpd72 wrote:
What is it you do for money?


Not sure of the relevance. I currently type numbers into computers.

It is fairly pointless and non-productive.

Quote:
Minimum wage for 2 adults in full time work, brings in around £2,500 a month in your pocket, after tax. If you can't live a comfortable life on that, you have no sense of spending.


Probably. Depends where you live. In Hull you'd get a house for that I suppose.

But there's still a Tesco down the road from me.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 20 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Aye well you're alright, Jack. What about the mugs who don't have any choice?


I think you're misinterpreting me. The reply is in the context of why an individual would consider a job beneath them. The answer is because by selecting it they would be placing themselves in the lowest rungs of society. That doesn't mean they won't end up doing it anyway.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 23:09 - 20 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh look, he's peddling the one about the stereotypical two working people.

What if one is raising their children, comfortable on one wage, until it goes tits up and bread winner ends up on the rock and roll?

You never do consider that.
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Irezumi aka Reuben
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PostPosted: 23:09 - 20 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
I suppose they teach for all 6 of those hours every day too. Not get a couple of hours in the staff room to do marking and prep then? Even after 3PM?

"Oh but they all work evenings and weekends preparing for class"... The 2 I know bloody don't.

I know quite a few teachers (including a family member) and most work long weeks. On average once holidays are taken in to account a friend worked out he worked the equivalent of a 40 hour week if working every week of the year. He was in fact working up to 70 hours a week in term time. The argument he raises is that he can't take holiday during term time and therefore pays more (his fault really). Swings and roundabouts really.

As to the people mentioning uni snowflakes running off and not paying their student loans, and also to the medical industry not retaining staff. I fall in to both these categories (not a nurse or doctor though, working behind the scenes). I work in a skilled job (I have an MSc which I paid for out of my own savings so no loan), but still own a substantial amount from my undergraduate degree which my current wage wont pay off any time soon.

The reason I am leaving is I can earn £10k p.a. more in the same/similar role abroad whilst having lower living costs. I would happily stay and pay my student loan if it was financially viable for me to do so whilst also being able to own a property should I wish.

I agree with someone mentioning about apprenticeships being the way forward. I see lots of people turning up with MSc's and PHD's even coming to do training where I work who don't even seem to have basic skills or common sense, training people directly in the roles necessary would make much more sense. If moving abroad doesn't work out for me I am hoping that I can potentially re-train in an engineering role, however I'm not sure there will be many people willing to take on an early 30year old (by then) apprentice.

The ultimate issue we have as Frankie Boyle has mentioned is "The Fucking Banks!" They have, and continue to screw things up, whilst politicians sit pretty and turn the population against each other. It seems to be working.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 23:16 - 20 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irezumi aka Reuben wrote:
I agree with someone mentioning about apprenticeships being the way forward.


Not sure this works unless apprenticeships actually match University in terms of prestige/career prospects.

If a degree remains the path with highest chance of securing a well paid job, then people are still going to pile in unless you make it inaccessible.

But even then, if you match them, someone has to lose.
I mean, this just comes back to the whole expectations thing. 50% of the population can't be in the top 10%.

How did this work historically? My vague hunch is that University expansion played a part and that the Internet democratised information. Can you go back from that? Do we want to?
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Irezumi aka Reuben
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PostPosted: 23:38 - 20 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:
Not sure this works unless apprenticeships actually match University in terms of prestige/career prospects.

If a degree remains the path with highest chance of securing a well paid job, then people are still going to pile in unless you make it inaccessible.

But even then, if you match them, someone has to lose.
I mean, this just comes back to the whole expectations thing. 50% of the population can't be in the top 10%.

How did this work historically? My vague hunch is that University expansion played a part and that the Internet democratised information. Can you go back from that? Do we want to?

Completely agree, a lot of people have now assumed having a degree is an automatic run in to a cushty job with a nice salary, which we know is not true. In my naivety I beleive I fell in to this, although I did try to get an apprenticeship before going to uni but at the time (around crash time/2008) there were extremely few about, particularly in London where I was. In retrospect I should have left London but that's a big decision when you're 17, and one that never crossed my mind back then.

I think it will go back due to there being too much information now available on the internet. The universties have shot themselves in the foot by increasing fees whilst also putting more and more information about their courses on the internet. The fact that the people they are producing are not up to scratch, hence somebody like Dyson creating his own course to train people, is evidence of this.

I think the issue now is that any chance of a meritocracy based on working hard seems to have disapeared. I have worked a job undertaken at least 15 hours a week since school, even during full time study, it seems highly unlikely I am able to achieve all the 'dreams' that are sold to me by society (another issue we'll ignore for this discussion). I would say I am probably the rule rather than the exception of having jumped through all the hoops and not getting the treat at the end. I think this also plays a role in not wanting to do menial jobs, which I have done, and do not wish to return to. Essentially a feeling of being 'above' them/entitlement I'd agree, but due to having worked hard previously.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 23:53 - 20 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:

No, the lowest rungs of the ladder is the growing "no intention of working class", such as pretend authors etc...

Over the last few years the minimum wage has been creeping up and the tax threshold has also risen. Take home pay at the lowest scale has risen a lot more than people think.

Unfortunately, employers seem to be using this as an excuse to keep
Labour cheap. We're at a stage where the figure is something like only 45% of households actually pay income tax now.

Those paying income tax are subsidising the tax credit workers income on behalf of the corporate employers.


It's not though, really.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 23:56 - 20 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Take home pay at the lowest scale has risen a lot more than people think.


In nominal terms I would agree.

In real terms (not general inflation but rather actual cost of living at that end of the income spectrum) I think it's way off.

Yes, particularly the south, but even up North the house-to-salary multiplier has rocketed since the introduction of NMW.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 23:58 - 20 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irezumi aka Reuben wrote:
Completely agree, a lot of people have now assumed having a degree is an automatic run in to a cushty job with a nice salary, which we know is not true.


Well, I'd think the reasoning would be that if you look at the top jobs, the vast majority are degree holders.

Problems:

Prime Ministers (replace with your 'top job' of choice) aren't Surf Studies graduates from Leeds Met.

Leading on from that, a chap off an estate studying PPE at Oxford doesn't easily fall into the right circles for a number of reasons I'm too lazy to list.

Basically, you're advertised on Harrods and you end up at Nisa Local.

On meritocracy; well, I'd think we do have a meritocracy, it's just based on different attributes than some might prefer. Again, look at the top jobs. Sociopathy points > academic points.


Last edited by Derivative on 00:09 - 21 Feb 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 00:08 - 21 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:
How did this work historically? My vague hunch is that University expansion played a part and that the Internet democratised information. Can you go back from that? Do we want to?


The number of graduates have gone through the roof. Percentage of graduates in the population has gone from 17% to 38% between 1992 and 2013 according to this

All the best

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MahatmaAndhi
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PostPosted: 09:13 - 21 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peterborough is going to get inundated with... British people. Urgh! I'd rather stick with the Europeans.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:48 - 21 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Maybe some people have self respect and ambition? Everyone has to start somewhere

Unrealistic ambition is part of the problem.

More Brits need to get used to the idea that they'll start by wiping arses and then stay there.

Even if they have a degree in History of Media in Gender Studies.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:23 - 21 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
Maybe some people have self respect and ambition? Everyone has to start somewhere

Unrealistic ambition is part of the problem.

More Brits need to get used to the idea that they'll start by wiping arses and then stay there.

Even if they have a degree in History of Media in Gender Studies.


Skills aside, it definitely doesn't help having our borders open to an entire continent.

One thing I'm getting really sick of from EU remain people is the claim that Brits just need to up their game against immigrants.

I'd rather a Brit with an American Studies degree be gainfully employed, instead of them being sat on the dole because a Spanish lad who has an American Studies with Ufology degree came and took the job instead.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 21 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/pages/resource-bank/archive
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:28 - 21 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


Skills aside, it definitely doesn't help having our borders open to an entire continent.

One thing I'm getting really sick of from EU remain people is the claim that Brits just need to up their game against immigrants.

.


MERITOCRACY unless the other guy is better than me
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