Employment Lawyer / TUPE Expert

[kingnathski88]

Hi All

Recently been announced that my job is being redundant at its current site (NN13) and is being relocated approx. 120 miles (ME19).

They have offered me the chance to transfer under this TUPE agreement. However, they will not offer a penny towards relocation costs or towards petrol even for a week or a month or two.

The company closed another site (CV37) and moved jobs to my site (NN13) and still pay employees that transferred a contribution towards petrol.

I have doubts whether the TUPE is valid considering my job that is moving isn't actually going to be done at the site - it is outsourced to another company.

Can't get a straight answer out of our HR department.

Does anyone happen to know of or be an experienced employment lawyer / HR person of some knowledge who might be able to offer some free / informative advice.

Brief google searches seem to suggest what they are doing is legit.

Although TUPE is something I cant seem to get a good answer on.

Hope someone can help in some way

If anyone is in the know and can help, I can divulge a bit more information.

[Nobby the Bastard]

[kingnathski88]

They aren't necessarily offering us redundancy.

They said if we don't sign the TUPE transfer then they will offer us an alternative and suitable role.

Only if there is no suitable role will they offer us a redundancy package.

The concern is that they are trying or going to rail road us into a role that I don't want to do, even if in theory I could do it.

[Baggyman]

[Rogerborg]

Lodge a formal grievance. Do it now, title it "FORMAL GRIEVANCE". Assert constructive dismissal.

Don't try to be fair, don't waffle, just say: "No reasonable relocation terms, no equivalent job, no offer of redundancy = sacking by the back door."

You don't have to be all BodyGuard about it. Feel free to banter with the HR tarts (why are they always wombyn?). "Just for form's sake, I'm sure everyone is handing these in, lovely haircut, is that new?"

Now that you've got the clock running, you can go and speak to your local Citizen's Advice and see if they have anyone available to give Advice to Citizens, if they're not too busy filling in asylum claims for grey bearded teenagers about it.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[kingnathski88]

No union, we are office based work wise.

They are saying we have to sign to agree to the TUPE if we want to transfer with our job to the other site or stay at our existing site.

Haven't actually seen any 'proper' paperwork yet.

We have a redundancy date set at end of May so if we don't apply for a new job internally or leave before then I guess that's the date we go.

But they stress that if you are suitable for an alternative job and could in theory do it, even if its a job completely different to what I have been doing and I choose note to do it then I would in effect be resigning and leave with no redundancy.

[Baggyman]

Suggest get proper legal advice.

Too important to do otherwise

Offices can have unions too
____________________
Old fart
Baghira, modded GS1000 and the T150 I bought in 1978 when I was 21

[stinkwheel]

I'd imagine a lot will hinge on the wording of the original contract of employment you signed so best look that out and read it and keep it somewhere safe.

Not having one is not necessarily a bad thing either providing one can't magically be produced by the other party with your signature on it.

Courts set a lot of store by actual documents and not vague assertions that said document must have existed sometime, err, I think we've lost it.

Implied contract is best contract (after a fashion).
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Rogerborg]

Mmm, I haven't returned any of the previous 2 (maybe 3?) contracts that I've been handed. The last one, a TUPE, I printed off my own version with all the bullshit taken out (most of it), signed it, and put it on my desk. I was never asked for it again.

At this point, I'm probably ex-contractual. They pay monies, I turn up, that's really all a contract needs to be.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Derivative]

I am not an employment law expert and exist here to flap my gums.

Reasonably I can't see how offering relocation costs or not is material.

If you live a 15-20 min commute that costs X from my work, and suddenly the company decides you now have a 2-3 hour commute that costs X*10, you have been made redundant, surely.

If you want to go and live in the other place for a change and can afford it (or are compensated well enough), go for it, but it seems absurd that you could be effectively 'forced'.

[iooi]

[UncleFester]

TUPE guarantees your role, not your job under the SAME contract for 12 months beyond the date of the transfer.

After that - you can be made redundant.

Essentially they are giving you 12 months notice plus whatever notice period you have with them.

I know this because i got TUPE'd two years ago and after 18 months, down came the ban hammer. Been job hunting the last few months and finally back in work.

Do not waste the next 12 months if you do take the transfer.
____________________
Module 1 and 2 passed - October 2014. Happy owner of a 2017 Z1000SX, ex owner of a YBR125 / CB500 / VFR800.

[Rogerborg]

Mmm, I think the first thing I'd do is secure myself a better job elsewhere. Your local site is closing, that's a fact that needs to be dealt with. Let it galvanise you into improving your situation.

Then with that card up your sleeve, demand that they pay you off rather than offer a bullshit relocation.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Baggyman]

So...

Get all your info together, including a copy of your contract of employment and get some proper legal advice.

Your job is being outsourced. That means under TUPE, you have the legal right to transfer to the new company on your existing terms and conditions. Check your contract. That covers your existing T&Cs ( those along with custom and practice make up your overall terms) What does it say about work location or mobility?

Your current employer and the outsourcer have no authority to negotiate between them to make your TUPE rights go away but some companies still try it on.

To be clear, it is positions rather than people that are in scope for transfer. You specifically are not in scope, your current role is.

Get yourself some proper legal advice.

Also suggest you think about what is more important to you personally - staying in the same location or staying in the same job?
Either could go well or badly so look at the specifics and make the best choice for you. Worst case it you get yourself some breathing space to look for another job. TUPE is not always bad for the people concerned. It can give you more opportunity in a different organisation but that is something you need to assess for your own situation. The guys doing this will be looking at how they can make money out of the deal so something has to give somewhere. A bit of positioning can help you weather that.

Did I say - Get some proper independent legal advice. Do not immediately believe what your company tells you. Keep copies of everything.

Btw, you should sort out the alternative role before the transfer date if that is what you want to do. If you are going to get made redundant in your current role, it should be the new company that does it, not the existing one - you should then get some TUPE breathing space. If you change roles and stay with your current company, then the normal situation applies.

So. - get some proper legal advice. Makes sure everything is in writing

Finally, I am guessing you work for company A... and your are likely to move to company C.... (names redacted ) - if that is the case, they appear to actually be the same company (or at least under the same parent) so get yourself some legal advice
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Old fart
Baghira, modded GS1000 and the T150 I bought in 1978 when I was 21

[P.]

The living costs around ME19 are pushing up... Certainly more than NN areas... You are fairly close to the elusive M26/M25 border there... And it's close to me so not really safe for you and any crashed bikes you possess.

[owl]

Get a current job description and a transfer job description, if you don't like what you see don't sign anything.

How long have you been with the company?
____________________
Observation is the greatest source of wisdom.

[Minty]

[UncleFester]

I guess it depends on the terms offered by the people doing the transfer, my understanding was that IF you accept the transfer, it cannot by law be under worse terms than your current contract specifies.

My feelings after going through TUPE is that unless you can see yourself at the new firm ( and can see yourself even being kept on by them) then try and get redundancy if possible and get a new job.

The problem is that if you don't accept the transfer and redundancy is not on offer, you are effectively resigning your position and all you get is your notice period. Given that most people don't have more than 4 weeks, that's not much help if you have bills.

Luckily i had a 3 month notice period and i'd been there 9 years so waiting out the TUPE period worked out nicely for me and that was the sole reason i accepted it.

Everyones situation will be different.
____________________
Module 1 and 2 passed - October 2014. Happy owner of a 2017 Z1000SX, ex owner of a YBR125 / CB500 / VFR800.

[iooi]

[Nobby the Bastard]

Technically, there is no 'TUPE period'. 12 months is a load of bollocks.
The more time has passed since the point of TUPE, however, the easier it is to argue that the change to conditions isn't related to the TUPE transfer.
____________________
trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Sprint ST 1050

[kingnathski88]

Thanks for all the input guys.

I have worked there for nearly 9 1/2 years.

The one company owns all the sites.

They bought the original company of the NN13 site some 18 months ago.

I understand why they are doing what they are doing as they are a business.

If I wanted to transfer with my job, it would cost me £500 petrol a month and 3 1/2 hours each day. It is material. They want us to commit to this TUPE in two weeks.

How can you expect someone to commit to that sort of expense / decision in that time frame.

Thanks again for the input, I'll phone ACAS tomorrow and then look to seek our some sort of employment lawyer / expert.

[Derivative]