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Another 'Auto-pilot' Tesla crash

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Kris
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PostPosted: 10:28 - 09 Mar 2017    Post subject: Another 'Auto-pilot' Tesla crash Reply with quote
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4276810/Dashboard-camera-footage-captures-crash-Tesla-autopilot.html

Quote:
A dashboard camera caught frightening footage of a Tesla being driven on autopilot crashing into barriers at the side of a busy Interstate.

The Tesla Model S was being driven along the highway near Dallas, Texas when the road required the driver to merge lanes.

For some reason, the autopilot computer on board the Tesla was unable to 'see' the obstruction and the road's change of direction leading the car to crash into the barrier.



Also from that article;

Quote:
Investigators from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration launched a full probe into the autopilot feature following a fatal crash involving a Tesla using the system in Florida on May 7, 2016.

The accident killed former Navy Seal Joshua Brown, 40, of Canton, Ohio.

Investigators found the cameras on his car, a Tesla S, failed to distinguish the wide side of a turning tractor-trailer from the brightly lit sky.



Thinking
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 10:37 - 09 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
You also have to question wtf the driver was doing. I'm betting he wasn't quite paying full attention to the road because he would have noticed the car not merging lanes. Shirley.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:57 - 09 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Which is why "driver assist" is exactly the wrong way to go.

Because humans are stupid and lazy, and given anything that allows us to become stupider and lazier, we will use it.

Have Tesla's geeks ever actually met a real human? You know that "driver" was busily Facebooking "Lol mi car is driving isself!!!!" at that moment.
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UnknownStuntm...
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PostPosted: 11:26 - 09 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
And the 'tard driving behind who wasn't paying attention nearly spazzed himself too.

I might not have the greatest respect for British bureaucratic baloney, but our road markings and specifications do seem an awful lot higher than other countries'. I'd have expected at least one of those 'get over there' markings on the ground, and a couple of blue and white arrowish signs on the left there.

God bless America, land of the free. (as in beer).
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 14:12 - 09 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I do agree with Roger.

Also: The road changed direction suddenly but the Tesla did not

From this sentence it seems like they blame the car for all this. What is wrong with people? Doh!

It also looked like the drive just made a mistake or fell asleep, now trying to milk the Tesla company. It'd be funny if the ''blackbox'' in the car would show, that the autopilot function was not active when it happened.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:12 - 09 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wasn't the excuse something about a bright sky the last time one went skynet? Looked fairly dull and overcast to me Thinking
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goto10
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PostPosted: 17:54 - 09 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
Wasn't the excuse something about a bright sky the last time one went skynet? Looked fairly dull and overcast to me Thinking

Last time a lorry was crossing perpendicular to the Tesla's direction of travel - the trailer was white and pretty much in line with the horizon, so the camera didn't see it (well, it thought that it was just part of the sky - be it clouds or just general brightness)
To enable auto emergency braking, the system has to have agreement from the radar sensor and the camera (to avoid random emergency stops) - so whilst the radar detected the obstruction - the software couldn't be sure that it wasn't just a radar reflection from roadside furniture - the camera said 'all clear' and it went straight under the trailer.
Tesla are now mapping roads with radar, to build up a map of where they get regular radar reflections - so if the radar detects an unusual obstruction (i.e. one that's not normally there) - then it'll take it more seriously rather than seeking absolute corroboration from the camera.

This time the road markings seem to have trumped the obstacle - it was yellow too so the camera must've seen it and known that it wasn't sky or road - maybe radar was reflected to the right (due to the shape of the object) and didn't detect the range correctly.
It'll be interesting to hear Tesla's side of the story, I'll be amazed if there was no warning buzz telling the driver to take over (which is the default failure mode when the software gets confused)
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:17 - 09 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
goto10 wrote:
To enable auto emergency braking, the system has to have agreement from the radar sensor and the camera (to avoid random emergency stops)

"Sorry, nerds, marketing says that it's better for our bottom line to kill a few owners than to annoy many of them."

How did this 'un see through the car in front?
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goto10
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PostPosted: 18:45 - 09 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
goto10 wrote:
To enable auto emergency braking, the system has to have agreement from the radar sensor and the camera (to avoid random emergency stops)

"Sorry, nerds, marketing says that it's better for our bottom line to kill a few owners than to annoy many of them."

How did this 'un see through the car in front?


It saw under the car in front.
Tesla wrote:
a Tesla will also be able to bounce the radar signal under a vehicle in front - using the radar pulse signature and photon time of flight to distinguish the signal - and still brake even when trailing a car that is opaque to both vision and radar. The car in front might hit the UFO in dense fog, but the Tesla will not.

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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:45 - 09 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
goto10 wrote:
To enable auto emergency braking, the system has to have agreement from the radar sensor and the camera (to avoid random emergency stops)

"Sorry, nerds, marketing says that it's better for our bottom line to kill a few owners than to annoy many of them."

How did this 'un see through the car in front?

Holy shit... did a Corsa just total a 4x4 Dance!
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Ben90
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PostPosted: 07:12 - 10 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tesla's cars have driven something like 220 million miles on autopilot (October 2016 was the latest data i could find)

Collectively they had driven 130 million miles before the first fatality. The average fatality rate of cars driven by meat-based computers in the US is 1 in 60 million miles, so even in it's infancy (and public beta) Autopilot is already far safer than (admittedly, American) humans by a factor of more than 2.

And it'll keep improving.

Still so much want Drooling
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 07:54 - 10 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I bet it can grammar better than human's too.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 09:59 - 10 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't see that working as a sales pitch. "Yeah you might die but it's safer than you, just look at these sta..."

I realise it's early days for the technology but I think we should be encouraging people to pay more attention on the roads, not less.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 10 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
I don't see that working as a sales pitch. "Yeah you might die but it's safer than you, just look at these sta..."

That is exactly what is wrong with the News of this sort. Conventional cars crash and people die every day. Tesla doesn't have millions of vehicles out there, so when one Tesla crashes (statisticaly meaningless), the whole society then questions the safety of this company's vehicle. Tesla is somewhat sucessful and that only means a lot of people would be sceptical and wishing bad stuff to happen to their product. Just like when someone crashes a Ferrari, it makes the News, in the mean while 100 VW concern car drivers crashed, 30 injured people, 3 deaths.... and no body cares. It's not just accidents, it's also the reliablitity issues of all sorts too.

I'm not trying to defend Tesla, but most of the crashes were a result of a human error, as I do believe every owner was specificaly told not to rely on the ''autopilot'' feature, as it's only a assistent and not a autonomous driving system.

M.C wrote:
I realise it's early days for the technology but I think we should be encouraging people to pay more attention on the roads, not less.

This is not really a question of when. It's a question of if. We need to have people responsible for their actions, that's how our society works. If we use a ''autopilot'' system and something goes wrong, who would you make responsible? The car manufacturer? The dealer? The driver? The owner of the car who let someone else drive it?

We need to have someone who's gonna be responsible for what happens if something goes wrong. We can't have, yeah malfunction a of computer, could have happened to anyone, case closed.
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UnknownStuntm...
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PostPosted: 13:02 - 10 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
I'm not trying to defend Tesla, but most of the crashes were a result of a human error, as I do believe every owner was specificaly told not to rely on the ''autopilot'' feature, as it's only a assistent and not a autonomous driving system.

...

We need to have someone who's gonna be responsible for what happens if something goes wrong. We can't have, yeah malfunction a of computer, could have happened to anyone, case closed.


Who do you think writes the code these magic boxes run?

For that matter, who do you think writes the code for aircraft autopilots?

Computers don't make mistakes. Crap code, hardware failures, using something out of design specification etc makes mistakes, and there's your 'human error'. Knowing just how lawyered-up your average 'entitled american' is, I bet Tesla is just waiting for a lawsuit to be brought against a specific coder or software tester who "dint do der jerb and now my daddy deed".

Last edited by UnknownStuntman on 14:07 - 10 Mar 2017; edited 1 time in total
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goto10
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PostPosted: 13:21 - 10 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:

We need to have someone who's gonna be responsible for what happens if something goes wrong. We can't have, yeah malfunction a of computer, could have happened to anyone, case closed.


The captain of an aeroplane is ultimately responsible if something goes wrong - same should be true for cars [whilst they're expected to have a fully licenced driver at the wheel]

But with this in mind, just look at Flight 447 - it lost output from its pitot tubes (speed sensors), so the autopilot switched itself off and handed control to the pilot (Pierre Bonin) - who then proceeded to fly the perfectly serviceable aircraft straight into the sea, killing everyone on board.

So you can imagine how this will translate to fuckwits on the road - autopilot failure will essentially mean instant crash, because the driver will be asleep/watching a movie/looking on Facebook.

It'll still be safer than a car solely controlled by meat though.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:25 - 10 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
UnknownStuntman wrote:
black autopilots

Yessum, massa Stuntman.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:51 - 10 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
RhynoCZ wrote:
M.C wrote:
I don't see that working as a sales pitch. "Yeah you might die but it's safer than you, just look at these sta..."

That is exactly what is wrong with the News of this sort. Conventional cars crash and people die every day. Tesla doesn't have millions of vehicles out there, so when one Tesla crashes (statisticaly meaningless), the whole society then questions the safety of this company's vehicle. Tesla is somewhat sucessful and that only means a lot of people would be sceptical and wishing bad stuff to happen to their product. Just like when someone crashes a Ferrari, it makes the News, in the mean while 100 VW concern car drivers crashed, 30 injured people, 3 deaths.... and no body cares. It's not just accidents, it's also the reliablitity issues of all sorts too.

I'm not trying to defend Tesla, but most of the crashes were a result of a human error, as I do believe every owner was specificaly told not to rely on the ''autopilot'' feature, as it's only a assistent and not a autonomous driving system.

M.C wrote:
I realise it's early days for the technology but I think we should be encouraging people to pay more attention on the roads, not less.

This is not really a question of when. It's a question of if. We need to have people responsible for their actions, that's how our society works. If we use a ''autopilot'' system and something goes wrong, who would you make responsible? The car manufacturer? The dealer? The driver? The owner of the car who let someone else drive it?

We need to have someone who's gonna be responsible for what happens if something goes wrong. We can't have, yeah malfunction a of computer, could have happened to anyone, case closed.

My problem would be I'm perfectly capable of driving from point a to b without crashing, I'm not saying I'm perfect but merely competent. A lot of people on the roads aren't, so a (potentially) flawed system being better than your 'average' driver isn't really comforting.

Also I can't think of anything more stressful than effectively monitoring someone (or something) else's driving. You might as well not have the system IMO. My opinion hasn't changed, it has to be completely autonomous or not at all. Again I realise these are early days, I'm just saying I'll let someone else collect the Darwin award Smile
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 23:00 - 10 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think the name 'Autopilot' was a mistake and I wonder if they're starting to see this too.

The functionality they do have is excellent, the problem is that it's not communicated well enough what the limits are, partly because driver feedback is minimal/nonexistent (e.g. you don't know that it intends to manouver around an obstacle until it actually does it).

I took one for a spin a while back and the most use I got out of AP was in bumper to bumper traffic. And there, the risks are very low anyway.
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UnknownStuntm...
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PostPosted: 09:23 - 13 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Derivative wrote:
I took one for a spin

Checks out.
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