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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 17:13 - 20 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Marmalade wrote:
If the general public realised it affects them as well

How? That's the key argument that needs to be made. UKMTP don't appear to be making it

Exactly. That flyer is utterly pointless. I'd hazard a guess that if pressed, Joe Public might even consider bike theft is, if anything, a good thing: "the more times those ignorant buggers get their nasty noisy toys nicked the more likely they are to give up on bikes altogether, so that eventually motorcycles will finally disappear from the roads altogether. Result!"
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Paddy.
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PostPosted: 17:24 - 20 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt B wrote:
Why so negative Roger?


Don't think its negativity, I think its just looking at it realistically...

I'd rather put the money I'm spending on fuel to go for a, presumably slow and fairly sensible jolly through London on some securitaaahhh to prevent Billy Fuckwit and his mates from trying to tinker.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 18:22 - 20 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatefreak wrote:
I'm thinking of going just to get out the bleeding house and meet some peoples...
Bought a nice litre bike, may as well take it out somewhere Laughing


I rather suspect this is why most will attend. Sorry, but I agree with Rogerborg on this. It will achieve nothing. And not only because the flyers or the campaign in general don't give an option of action to take following the protest. Joe Public is either entirely indifferent to motorcyclists, or actively hates them. And we are a tiny minority, so I can't see us being able to persuade the authorities to invest extra time and funding into dealing with the problem when every public service is stretched to its limit and they can't even sort those.

Such protest rides might achieve something if they were part of a sustained campaign that regularly brought city centres to a grinding halt and hit at the economic heart of government and businesses. But even then, I rather suspect the police would suddenly be able to find the necessary resources to prevent such recurring protests from happening at all.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 20 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt B wrote:
Why so negative Roger?

MAG used me and discarded me. They never write[*], they never call. Crying or Very sad


Matt B wrote:
A one man crusade to pick holes in every aspect of the UKMTP.

Only the ones that are counter-productive wastes of time.

Oh, right - every aspect, at least relevant to this rage-ride.


Matt B wrote:
A protest ride isn't going to change anything regarding laws and legislation so everyone should just cease, desist, shut up and stay at home.

... and spend the time writing to their PCC and MP.

The opposite of the wrong action is not inaction.


Matt B wrote:
Your one man crusade against this meet isn't going to change anything so why not cease and desist?

If I can save one life from having a wasted day, it will be worth it.


Matt B wrote:
This sums it up for me. I'm going to an organised event to show exactly this.

What result do you expect based on your contribution?


chickenstrip wrote:
Such protest rides might achieve something if they were part of a sustained campaign that regularly brought city centres to a grinding halt and hit at the economic heart of government and businesses.

Nope. NTBPT brought central London to (more of) a halt for years, and achieved nothing other than to piss off the Mayor.

This tactic has already been tried, and tried better. It failed. It's not rational to expect different results this time.


[*] They do actually keep emailing me asking for moar support.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 18:37 - 20 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

chickenstrip wrote:
Such protest rides might achieve something if they were part of a sustained campaign that regularly brought city centres to a grinding halt and hit at the economic heart of government and businesses.

Nope. NTBPT brought central London to (more of) a halt for years, and achieved nothing other than to piss off the Mayor.

This tactic has already been tried, and tried better. It failed. It's not rational to expect different results this time.



What did Boris the Buffoon actually do to prevent the protests that time around? But yes, I agree, hence my following the above phrase with:

chickenstrip wrote:
But even then, I rather suspect the police would suddenly be able to find the necessary resources to prevent such recurring protests from happening at all.

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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:39 - 20 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

He didn't prevent them, they just fizzled out when it became apparent that they were achieving nothing other than pissing people off. And no, that anger wasn't directed towards Westminster Council.

Then the court challenge against the Westminster bike charges failed (because it was cack-handed) and that was that.

UKMTP aren't even trying to point their own members in the right direction, let alone the public. This makes me sad.

"Awareness" is not a plan.
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Rufous
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PostPosted: 20:22 - 20 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg isn't just on a downer. He's exactly right in his observations about strategy and effective lobbying, and its conspicuous lack thereof in this protest. But it's just a protest. For sure, you need organisation. This really isn't the organisation you're looking towards to do any of those things. The right organisation to take those actions hasn't been formed yet, and doesn't exist. A disciplined, peaceful protest ride is, really, the most you can expect from UKMTP. I appreciate the points about wasting petrol and time on a good spring weekend. It's right that nobody should expect anything to come of this particular action. It will be ignored by the police, the politicians and the news media. However, there's more to it than actually achieving the protest ride's stated outcome.

You may be unaware that the youth I mentioned who started this whole thing has been contacted by thieves. Death threats have been flying around. There have been violent incidents as well. This stuff, online and real-life contact, is practically a daily occurrence. None of the protest ride's efforts have even mentioned these dirty tactics, let alone made it the focus of the ride, and that's quite laudable because it's a lot of pressure to bear on one guy. Much as I hate to admit it, the group is even more hapless than its appraisal has declared it to be on this forum. However, you can't ignore individuals' personal qualities of courage and steadfastness, nor the goodwill. How great would it be, if BCF members gathered round him, had some photos taken that could be shared on social media, to say, mess with this guy and you mess with us... I know it's probably asking too much. But it's just a thought.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:06 - 20 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The goal is to embolden an individual to carry on a pointless-at-best campaign?

Wait, why is UKMTP run from the same secure-undisclosed-chip-shop-adjacent location as rainpal.us?

FITZ-CAMBERLEY! Shocked
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Rufous
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PostPosted: 23:47 - 20 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kind of, but there's a bigger picture too. How can I put it? I see the value and special talents in everyone, I have jobs for everyone and I will leave no man behind and will abandon nobody. As an omnivore myself, I also have the good sense to not feed a stick of celery to a man-eating tiger. An excursion can be much more than that, if veteran scouts are involved. To keep a foot in both worlds, light and dark, is the secret key to unlock the truth. And five fingers of the hand are never the same.
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 00:01 - 21 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pointless IMO!

The great unwashed masses don't know and don't care to know the difference between thieving, chav, 'Bikelife' scum and anyone else riding a bike.
For various reasons they despise bikes, everything to do with bikes and anyone connected with bikes. They don't give a shit about bikes being stolen, in fact I suspect they're happy to see bikes stolen, they see it, rightly or wrongly, as one less biker on the road.

Trying to garner public support for anything to do with bikes has never worked and never will, the general public hate us!

All that will happen, should a mass protest/ride take place, myriad overzealous, plod will turn up, rubbing their hands together, set up road blocks and nick anyone they can for the, very, slightest of infringements, something they should have been doing when the 'Bikelife' chavscum had their rideout, but obviously CBA!
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 00:08 - 21 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suntan Sid wrote:
Pointless IMO!

The great unwashed masses don't know and don't care to know the difference between thieving, chav, 'Bikelife' scum and anyone else riding a bike.
For various reasons they despise bikes, everything to do with bikes and anyone connected with bikes. They don't give a shit about bikes being stolen, in fact I suspect they're happy to see bikes stolen, they see it, rightly or wrongly, as one less biker on the road.

Trying to garner public support for anything to do with bikes has never worked and never will, the general public hate us!

All that will happen, should a mass protest/ride take place, myriad overzealous, plod will turn up, rubbing their hands together, set up road blocks and nick anyone they can for the, very, slightest of infringements, something they should have been doing when the 'Bikelife' chavscum had their rideout, but obviously CBA!


D'you know, I could actually hear your voice rising to a scream, finishing with you frothing at the mouth and throwing a paperweight (or whatever was handiest) at the computer..."Aaaaaaand relax" Laughing
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:16 - 21 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rufous wrote:
How can I put it?

Using plain English words to convey the facts of the situation without writing in an unnecessarily obfuscating and esoteric fashion that reads like a David Icke polemic?
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FretGrinder
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PostPosted: 10:04 - 21 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone really wants my bike, they're going to take it and there's nothing I can do.

I just put in as many security devices in their way to make it a harder task to steal it.

If people spent the approiate amount of money on security, instead of few ponds on a crappy chain and disk lock thinking it'll be OK, then they wouldn't feel a need to protest against theft.

People steal anything, not just bikes, the easier you make it for them, the quicker you can say goodbye to your bike.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 10:13 - 21 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

FretGrinder wrote:
If someone really wants my bike, they're going to take it and there's nothing I can do.

I just put in as many security devices in their way to make it a harder task to steal it.

If people spent the approiate amount of money on security, instead of few ponds on a crappy chain and disk lock thinking it'll be OK, then they wouldn't feel a need to protest against theft.

People steal anything, not just bikes, the easier you make it for them, the quicker you can say goodbye to your bike.


Agreed, but bike security hasn't caught up with the battery powered angle grinder and the absolute apathy/fright of people.

There is a video doing the rounds of some scum angle grinding a bike in broad daylight with people just standing watching. I doubt anyone even phoned the police. And to be honest, who's going to stand up in court and testify against them and risk a bottle of petrol through the letterbox of their home.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 21 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
There is a video doing the rounds of some scum angle grinding a bike in broad daylight

That ought to be illegal. We need a change in the laws and legislation.
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 21 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
What result do you expect based on your contribution?


skatefreak wrote:
I'm thinking of going just to get out the bleeding house and meet some peoples


This more than anything. Is that OK, or should I stay at home (pointlessly) lobbying my MP and the Chief Constable? I would rather ride my bike than sit at home so:

I'm going for a ride to an iconic biker cafe, meet up with some mates, hopefully catch up with people I've not seen for ages, eat breakfast, ride through London nice and slow looking at the sights, have a laugh. It's a rideout with a theme.
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pudder
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PostPosted: 17:06 - 21 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rufous wrote:
Kind of, but there's a bigger picture too. How can I put it? I see the value and special talents in everyone, I have jobs for everyone and I will leave no man behind and will abandon nobody. As an omnivore myself, I also have the good sense to not feed a stick of celery to a man-eating tiger. An excursion can be much more than that, if veteran scouts are involved. To keep a foot in both worlds, light and dark, is the secret key to unlock the truth. And five fingers of the hand are never the same.


You're like the TL;DR version of Tef..
Tef-lite.

Inane drivel, but at least I don't wear out my scroll wheel ignoring it.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:59 - 21 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt B wrote:
skatefreak wrote:
I'm thinking of going just to get out the bleeding house and meet some peoples


This more than anything. Is that OK, or should I stay at home (pointlessly) lobbying my MP and the Chief Constable?

I bless your endeavour.

It's just a shame that it's not possible to do both. Sad
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NutsyUk
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PostPosted: 12:12 - 22 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I support a more public show of force against bike theft... The plods really are doing too little to tackle it.

I have to say, I dont think they understand the word exponential...

If bike thefts have gone up by 50% then, thats not exponential.

Say 100 bikes were stolen a year... In two years that turned into 150 bikes... For this to be exponential... Year one would be 100... year two 200 year 3 400 year 4 800...

*goes back to dreaming of bigger bikes...
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 22 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NutsyUk wrote:
If bike thefts have gone up by 50% then, thats not exponential.


You really don't understand exponential growth do you?

Thefts can have risen 50% in two years and still be exponential because it's just growth at a defined or constant rate. If thefts started off at 100 2 years ago and have increased by 50% in two years that means in year two there were 150 (depending on wow you interpret the wording). That gives a growth rate of about 22.5% - the total grows by this amount each year.

Start - 100, 123, 150, 184, 225, 276, 338, 414, 507, 621, 761* and so on. Each time the total increases by 22.5%, that's still exponential.

*Rounded up.
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NutsyUk
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 22 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Umm exponential is a doubling of values with each iteration...
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 13:59 - 22 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NutsyUk wrote:
Umm exponential is a doubling of values with each iteration...


Common misconception.

What you are describing is an exponential increase with a growth rate of 100%. The growth rate can be anything and it still describes exponential growth (or decay if it's a negative).

BBC Bitesize GSCE revision - http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/guides/zsn9d2p/revision/5
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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 14:05 - 22 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt B wrote:
NutsyUk wrote:
Umm exponential is a doubling of values with each iteration...

Common misconception.

Well he's kind of right; just that the 'iteration' doesn't have to be 1 year
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 22 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt B wrote:
You really don't understand exponential growth do you?

That contempt you're feeling?

I feel that for UKMTP's flyer, exponentiated times infinity.

Plus one.
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NutsyUk
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PostPosted: 14:17 - 22 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

:o dont feel contempt for me... Im nice... mostly.
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