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Is the mainstream media ultimately damaging society?

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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 19:46 - 29 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
M.C wrote:

I think it's more a case of access to birth control than ooh look at all this rice lets breed.


It certainly isn't. People in poor, starving countries breed as many babies as possible in the hope one or two will survive and look after them in their old age. They expect children to die, they hope enough survive.

Birth control would not be used.


Yeah I think this is pretty much it. Learned it in geography class about 15 years ago and I doubt much has changed since then.

Improving quality of life is what fixes it.

On the topic of UK birth rates, I just had a wee google and found this, which is sort of alarming. It's alarming because the UK population is still rising even against a long time birthrate of <2.0, which means immigration numbers must be gigantic.

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/https://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/resources/tfr3811v2_tcm77-314919.png
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 29 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
A tiny fraction of the billions corporations make

<Arec Bawdwin>And the corporations, they're all corporationy.</Arec Bawdwin>

The billions of what?

I really don't know how to make this any simpler.

Are you honestly under the impression that money equals things?

Let's take all the 'money' on the planet, put it in big spreadsheet, then divide it up exactly equally.

Great, now everybody lives in a mansion, has a flying car, and there's no famine or disease or war over resources, because money equals things.

Right?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 22:43 - 29 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:


Are you honestly under the impression that money equals things?


Money = power, monopolies, control.

If you can afford to buy out a local economy, you can take all the most lucrative businesses and bump wages down to near rock bottom, knowing full well that everyone will still take up the work in order to get by. This again is what the 'race to the bottom' argument is all about.

This is Monopoly basics and is why increasing inequality is never good sign for society.

Also, on a sort of related note as it's about inequality, here's an interesting talk from the alt-right's new favourite intellectual speaker, Jordan Peterson: "Poverty causes crime? Wrong! - The Gini coefficient"
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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:45 - 29 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
A tiny fraction of the billions corporations make

<Arec Bawdwin>And the corporations, they're all corporationy.</Arec Bawdwin>

The billions of what?

I really don't know how to make this any simpler.

Are you honestly under the impression that money equals things?

Let's take all the 'money' on the planet, put it in big spreadsheet, then divide it up exactly equally.

Great, now everybody lives in a mansion, has a flying car, and there's no famine or disease or war over resources, because money equals things.

Right?

Money equals infrastructure, schools etc., stuff that would actually help people. Superyachts on the whole tend not to.

mpd72 wrote:
If the issue was purely birth control, how do all the other civilisations in remote areas, free from Geldof interference survive without mass starvation?

The issue is stupidity, coupled with false expectations about aid propping up rates of reproduction several times over reality.

Such as? Why did we used to have families of 8 children etc., was it because only 6 would survive or was it because every time you jizzed inside your victorian mrs she was likely to pop out a baby?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 22:51 - 29 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:


Are you honestly under the impression that money equals things?


Money = power, monopolies, control.

If you can afford to buy out a local economy, you can take all the most lucrative businesses and bump wages down to near rock bottom, knowing full well that everyone will still take up the work in order to get by. This again is what the 'race to the bottom' argument is all about.

This is Monopoly basics and is why increasing inequality is never good sign for society.

Also, on a sort of related note as it's about inequality, here's an interesting talk from the alt-right's new favourite intellectual speaker, Jordan Peterson: "Poverty causes crime? Wrong! - The Gini coefficient"


A revolution or a major war every now and again is a good thing. Shakes up the people in power. Gets rid of the cannon fodder at the bottom. Settles society down for the next few generations.

Killing is what humans do best.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 23:15 - 29 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was quite happy when Zika came about. Doesn't interfere with the lives of infected adults that much, but provides a strong incentive not to breed. Preys on the unborn and not the living, about the perfect effects for a depopulation virus.

Now some science cunts are trying their very best to make a vaccine for it! FFS
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grr666
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PostPosted: 23:20 - 29 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:

Now some science cunts are trying their very best to make a vaccine for it! FFS
Immunoprin?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 23:38 - 29 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
Why did we used to have families of 8 children etc., was it because only 6 would survive or was it because every time you jizzed inside your victorian mrs she was likely to pop out a baby?



Children were a commodity in Victorian Britain. They were sent to work from a very young age or sold into servitude but that wasn't the reason for large families, it was shag and pregnant, no birth control.

There was also no concept of the children growing up and staying with their families and helping them in later life which is the basis of many of the cultures in these areas. There is (was) nothing for them to go to so they stayed in their family groups.

Now of course they go to Europe Rolling Eyes so the locals need to produce even more to make up for the dead ones and the one who have done a runner to Folkstone.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:09 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:
I was quite happy when Zika came about. Doesn't interfere with the lives of infected adults that much, but provides a strong incentive not to breed.

Certain communities are happy breeding with their cousins even though they keep having disabled children, I'm not sure how much of a disincentive it is. Also if something similar came to the UK Zika babies would be a benefits goldmine.

I sort of share your wish for a global pandemic though Neutral
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Sun Wukong
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PostPosted: 03:46 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:

A revolution or a major war every now and again is a good thing. Shakes up the people in power. Gets rid of the cannon fodder at the bottom. Settles society down for the next few generations.

Killing is what humans do best.


https://www.ruthlessreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/snowpiercer-an-audacious-sci-fi-blockbuster.jpeg

Thinking

I am also disheartened by the population growth in third world/developing countries.

The thing is, infant mortality IS the birth control in these countries. When they removed malaria in the last century, there were population explosions in every area, leading to famine.

I got very frustrated working with do-gooders in India last year, who couldn't see the issue at all and thought every birth was magical.

As said, double everyone's wage in a country and nobody improves.

However, the issue is that living in a consumerism based capitalist model, a lot of available resources are mis-used on Ipads and Lamborghinis.

Yes, supply and demand, growth of economy etc. However, an idealist could think of a great many better ways for humanity to better itself.

Most modern wealth creation seems to be built on exploiting wage imbalances, so why would they bother to correct them?

But you're all right, there is no way to do anything constructive until we find a way to curb population growth. Look at the stigma against how China did it, now India is the most populous country and has no such control.
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grr666
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PostPosted: 07:00 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:

Certain communities are happy breeding with their cousins even though they keep having disabled children, I'm not sure how much of a disincentive it is. Also if something similar came to the UK Zika babies would be a benefits goldmine.

Plenty of cousin fucking already happening in the UK. And it's only a matter of time until Zika gets here with all the free
travel. Ebola managed to cross the pond just fine. (carried in by a virtue signalling do gooder rather unsurprisingly)
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 07:24 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
Money equals infrastructure, schools etc.

I feel like we're having a complete failure to communicate.

I'll use short paragraphs, let's see if we can get this through.

Money is numbers. OK, let's give Dindu some numbers.

A road appears under him? A school springs up around him?

By magic? The numbers become tangible objects?

No, someone has to build them. Somebody local to Dindu.

Is it Dindu? Is it hell. Dindu would rather sit in the shade knocking back Soma.

Give him numbers, and he will trade those numbers for things that other people have made, often people a long way away.

The numbers won't make Dindu any more productive. They won't incentivise him to build that road or that school.

Quite the opposite. Giving Dindu numbers enables him to do nothing.

Crazy thought, but perhaps people are, in general, as wealthy as their own efforts entitle them to be?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:


Crazy thought, but perhaps people are, in general, as wealthy as they deserve to be?


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Someone clearly hasn't seen "Rich Kids of Instagram". Someday most of them will be in alright jobs, among their rich kid friends employed or aided by their rich families, all 'as wealthy as they deserve to be'. Laughing


Anyway... Crazy thought, but perhaps those who control most of the wealth are using that wealth to ensure they control even more of the wealth?

It's as if the concept wage suppression and erosion of workers' rights were both eradicated from your mind once you hit the "I'm alright Jack" stage of life.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:09 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
It's as if the concept wage suppression and erosion of workers' rights were both eradicated from your mind once you hit the "I'm alright Jack" stage of life.

At what amount of wealth would you, Percy, yes, you, feel that you should voluntarily give away the excess?

Not buying a copy of the Big Issue now and again. Not advocating that everybody in Shitlordia should be taxed more.

You, personally. When would you say "No, I have enough, give all the rest to some deserving urchins." ?

This is another of these non-rhetorical questions, although the answer is always going to be theoretical.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 17:43 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
It's as if the concept wage suppression and erosion of workers' rights were both eradicated from your mind once you hit the "I'm alright Jack" stage of life.

At what amount of wealth would you, Percy, yes, you, feel that you should voluntarily give away the excess?

Not buying a copy of the Big Issue now and again. Not advocating that everybody in Shitlordia should be taxed more.

You, personally. When would you say "No, I have enough, give all the rest to some deserving urchins." ?

This is another of these non-rhetorical questions, although the answer is always going to be theoretical.


Yep, wage suppression and workers rights are gone from your lexicon Very Happy

I wasn't on about caps on earnings or anything like that. I was on about suppression of salaries and rights because 'shitlord elites' buy up whole economies and thus can make everyone in the region work for peanuts.

For example, a local shoemaker who's doing alright for himself might sell up to the local Mr Rich. So the shoemaker is sorted for life. Then when the next generation comes along, Mr Rich still owns the shoe business so he can choose to pay a new shoemaker a lower amount then the previous shoemaker was earning.

Then Mr Rich can buy the tailor's shop. So in the next generation the well-earning tailor is no more, and Mr Rich can employ a new tailor for a fraction of the previous earnings.

Rinse and repeat until all the well-earning business in the area are run by Mr Rich and he only has to pay a fraction out for the jobs that were once highly lucrative for the old private owners.

The real life version of this is the Amazons and WalMarts that don't necessarily buy out businesses directly, but they're now so huge that they can go to any area and price local businesses right out of the market. So that's a whole load of reasonable-salaried private business owners being forced out without any way of getting back into the game. Stuck at the bottom stacking shelves for the mega-business that marched in and took over. Clearly disproves your point about everyone being as successful as they deserve, too. Unfair competition is a very real thing. Unless of course you're happy with the idea of super-sized overlords eradicating all chances of success altogether.

Nothing to do with capping earnings for the individual. We all obviously want to earn as much as we can. The problem is when those with the resources, and therefore power, can trample on what was once a balanced and profitable economic system in their own quest to earn as much as they can.

So it's about the way those at the bottom are undercut when the situation becomes too unequal, caused by 'Mr Rich' types wading in and buying the lot. Monopolisation in a nutshell, pretty much. If it isn't dealt with properly the imbalance only gets worse, and that's when revolutions happen. The solution lies in fair employment laws, which are currently being eroded rather nicely in the ever fiercer race to the bottom.

What did you make of the Jordan Peterson talk I linked to earlier?

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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:48 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
Money equals infrastructure, schools etc.

I feel like we're having a complete failure to communicate.

I'll use short paragraphs, let's see if we can get this through.

Money is numbers. OK, let's give Dindu some numbers.

A road appears under him? A school springs up around him?

By magic? The numbers become tangible objects?

No, someone has to build them. Somebody local to Dindu.

Is it Dindu? Is it hell. Dindu would rather sit in the shade knocking back Soma.

Give him numbers, and he will trade those numbers for things that other people have made, often people a long way away.

The numbers won't make Dindu any more productive. They won't incentivise him to build that road or that school.

Quite the opposite. Giving Dindu numbers enables him to do nothing.

Crazy thought, but perhaps people are, in general, as wealthy as their own efforts entitle them to be?

We're because we have vastly differing opinions on the subject (as other debates have also proven). No one deserves to be rich or poor, we're born into one or the other or somewhere in-between by complete chance. Do you ever wonder what African Rogerborg's doing right now?

Infrastructure's always an extremely bad investment, a lot of what we rely upon daily dates back to Victorian times, the amount of bawwing when a new train line or bridge's proposed highlights this. You're always going on about intelligence (usually a lack of), so how would a multi-national corporation operating in a country, making vast profits then deciding to build a school be a bad thing?

I'm not suggesting a salary sacrifice for every person to help their less developed cousins, just that businesses put a tiny fraction back into the areas they exploit, and actually that applies to everywhere they operate.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 18:59 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:

I'm not suggesting a salary sacrifice for every person to help their less developed cousins, just that businesses put a tiny fraction back into the areas they exploit, and actually that applies to everywhere they operate.


I worked for Shell in Nigeria for a good few years for my sins and as well as paying the Nigerian government huge amounts of money for the privilege of extracting oil and gas they gave local villages every conceivable perk they could. Dirt cheap electric and gas. Buildings, medical facilities but the locals didn't want that, really, They wanted cash in their pockets without having to work.

People in government syphoned off money and got rich. Their side kicks, police, army were bribed to look the other way and got rich. The locals rioted until they were given cash payments and got relatively rich.

There are more millionaires in Nigeria than UK, and more poverty. The British government gives aid to Nigeria which has more resources than we could dream about.

It's a society that EXPECTS something for nothing and if it doesn't get it it will take it.

Don't blame the companies, they aren't the exploiters.
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grr666
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PostPosted: 19:47 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:
Do you ever wonder what African Rogerborg's doing right now?

Sitting there with his hand out or perhaps running round with a machete chopping hands/heads/feet off of others?
Spreading aids because condoms are witchcraft? Fathering multiple children he hasn't a hope of providing for
because muh dick? Could be all of the above, who knows? African Rogerborg is illiterate so he can't sign up
to macheteworld.org and tell us. Some societies want all the trappings of western success without the 250 odd years
building such a society. Worst thing that could have happened was giving them access to the internet. And worse still
are those in the west that feel we somehow owe them that. How are they still brushing flies off of their faces 30 odd years
after Sir Bob saved them all??? Whatever the actual reason it's neither my fault nor my problem. The hordes rocking
up on my doorstep are my problem however, but nobody in power has the balls to do what needs to be done to stem
the flow. Until then we can expect MUCH more of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3vL_0XtiVY
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:58 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
[avoids the question, as usual]

Noted. Not so much fun when it comes down to concrete terms rather than vague abstracts, is it?


M.C wrote:
Do you ever wonder what African Rogerborg's doing right now?

Blowing the entire contents of his honey-badger sporran on whatever rotgut is cheapest in the company store.

Polarbear just explained why. People are not fungible.

Poor societies were poor before the corporations were all corporationey. They're still poor despite the beneficence of their betters. You can't inculcate a culture (or comprehension) of planning for tomorrow by giving handouts. It has quite the opposite effect.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 20:53 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
M.C wrote:

I'm not suggesting a salary sacrifice for every person to help their less developed cousins, just that businesses put a tiny fraction back into the areas they exploit, and actually that applies to everywhere they operate.


I worked for Shell in Nigeria for a good few years for my sins and as well as paying the Nigerian government huge amounts of money for the privilege of extracting oil and gas they gave local villages every conceivable perk they could. Dirt cheap electric and gas. Buildings, medical facilities but the locals didn't want that, really, They wanted cash in their pockets without having to work.

People in government syphoned off money and got rich. Their side kicks, police, army were bribed to look the other way and got rich. The locals rioted until they were given cash payments and got relatively rich.

There are more millionaires in Nigeria than UK, and more poverty. The British government gives aid to Nigeria which has more resources than we could dream about.

It's a society that EXPECTS something for nothing and if it doesn't get it it will take it.

Don't blame the companies, they aren't the exploiters.

So you'll know about the oil spills they don't bother to clean up, yet when one happens within x amount of miles of whitey it's a disaster? Sounds like people are selfish, much like us. Sounds like there's a lot of corruption, much like us Smile

All I'm really trying to say is I don't think it's fair and even true to assume people are scummy because of the circumstances they're born into. We used to go around claiming people were witches and killing them, just like what still goes on in Africa and within certain communities in the UK. I know African people who are incredibly smart, mainly because their families gave a shit and they had a decent education.

Found Rogerborg's African family btw:
https://blog.motorcycle.com.vsassets.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/101012-2013-bmw-r1200gs-37.jpg
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 21:15 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
[avoids the question, as usual]

Noted. Not so much fun when it comes down to concrete terms rather than vague abstracts, is it?



Not vague, I think the problem is that you can't grasp the abstract.

Salary caps aren't needed. A maximum ratio between that of the top earners and the lowest earners in a business is what's needed. Say 1:20 or something. There could be other complexities added too, for example a business with a much larger turnover would be allowed a greater ratio to account for the fact that the CEO really does have a lot to keep on top of each day.

The ratio could be something like "1:20k", where k is a scaling value that increases in line with the value of the business. So HSBC might have k=5, making the ratio 1:100 so the CEO can earn a rightful £1,000,000 against the cleaners' £10,000. Beyond that point, if the CEO wants to push pay scales even higher they have to do it across the board, so even the cleaners see higher pay. Then in theory, any reasonably successful company could end up being known as the place where even the cleaners enjoy clocking in each day. Sounds like a recipe for contentment to me.

Unfortunately the exact opposite happens these days. No cleaners really enjoy doing their job, and it's even reached the point where lower level work is subcontracted or outsourced so the prole stuff is done by people who have absolutely no stake in the business anyway, and they always earn peanuts regardless of how successful the year has been for big bosses. This to me is a recipe for misery and discontent.

The overall point would be that if the business improves and the CEO can take home more money, it should only be allowed if the shopfloor workers see a pay rise too. If an individual believes their contribution was worthy of particular commendation, they could negotiate a higher salary or promotion.

So there's my solution, without limits or salary caps. I don't know what made you think it was about Cuban style wage caps to be honest.

Some companies do things like this anyway, with yearly bonuses etc. It would be good to have it legislated though, to ensure greater fairness across the entire workforce.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 22:31 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
M.C wrote:

There would have to be a complete culture change, but people have proven it can be done. Generally successful people reach a point where they feel comfortable, and sell off their business etc., where as other people have restructured diverting the profits to good causes.


Not sure they do. A hell of a lot work themselves up to the point of death; whether that is because work is the entire self worth or whether it is that they always want more money is another question.

Lord Percy wrote:
On the topic of UK birth rates, I just had a wee google and found this, which is sort of alarming. It's alarming because the UK population is still rising even against a long time birthrate of <2.0, which means immigration numbers must be gigantic.


The biggy is how much longer people are living. Quick look suggests that since 1900 the life expectancy (at birth) of men in the UK has increased from 47 to 79, and for women from 50 to 83. That on its own would pretty much account for the UK increase in population (although we have had a few wars to knock back the population, and exported quite a bit of it as well).

While birth rate has dropped, that has done so quite recently. When I was born (1968) it was 2.6 and has now dropped (1.9 in 2012).

All the best

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Derivative
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PostPosted: 22:59 - 30 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Things.

Capping CEO pay reduces social mobility because it is one of the routes which result in being wealthy.

There exist many individuals / families with 8+ figure wealth that can carry that in perpetuity.

About there 'being enough'.

No, there really isn't enough - this feels self evident to me and if it's not for you then I don't think that you're taking into account your standard of living correctly.

There certainly isn't enough for 7 billion to live like me and I don't live a particularly sheltered life.

There are so many obvious ways in which this is true once you're past the basics of potatoes and running water.

I own a car. It is a crap car but if 7 billion did the Earth would turn into the Sun. Oh and there'd be no oil left.

Smaller scale, if the entire population of London did then I wouldn't be able to park it or get it beyond the end of the street.

The place I live is vaguely desirable. Not super posh but it is a place people want to live. Everyone can't regardless of how many tower blocks you build, and if you build the tower blocks they don't have the same standard of living any more.

Life is competitive.
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