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doggone World Chat Champion
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Nobby the Bastard |
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Nobby the Bastard Harley Gaydar
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
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Posted: 22:23 - 30 Apr 2017 Post subject: |
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First up, make sure yo have a 12v system.... just because the battery says 12v on the side doesn't mean that it is... and that could be a very good reason why it's not charged or staying charged!!! Don't presume, CHECK.
Next; First two are optimizers/trickle charger's not "Oh shit, Flattery.. I need a charger' charger's.
They deliver about 1/4 am, which is enough, if a bike s left in a garage to keep the charge topped up, so that natural loss is replenished and any small draw from say an alarm or immobilizer....
If you have a 12v system, it aught to have a battery rated at around 8Ah.. that rating means it can deliver 8A for one hour.... it can supply more, and will have to on the e-start.. that will suck perhaps 30A... so f you suck 4x the amps, battery will only be able to deliver it for 1/4 the time...
B-U-T... it wont.. such 'deep cycle discharge' hammers the battery electrolyte, so you probably wouldn't even get 10 minutes of sustained cranking from it, and after a couple of minutes the battery will be loosing volts, and not delivering the amps, so the starter will start to labour.. leave it to recoer a few minutes, and let the electrolyte cool and charge even accross the plates and electrolyte, it will come back up, and you might get a couple more minutes of cranking, but, you wont get the full quota suggested by the rating and it does 'wear out' the battery f you do it a lot......
Which I mention because you aluded to the battery aparetly 'self charging' when you left it; which is exactly what happens when they have bee deep cycled and left to recover, and is usually a symptom of a) a knackered battery b) a tired starter.... and the two are related; a tied starter will hammer the battery... while if the motor is past ts best and a lazy starter, you get a self defeatig cycle..... engine is hard to start, so starter has to work harder ad longer to encourage it, that hammers battery.... battery gets tired, and replaement 'seems' to make things better.... tempererily... but, it's the symptom not the cause.... cause is poorly slow startng engine; making starter work harder and wear not faster, making battery work harder and give up first.... THIs is where you start going around in circles chasing 'problems' tackling symptoms never really getting to root cases..... as mentioned!
Back to the trickle chargers.... delvering 1/4A, the battery of good, 8Ah rating would imply it would take 8hours to charge at one amp, or 32hours to charge at 1/4 amp... but agan, like deep-cycle dscharge, trickle charging needs to put in not just enough amp-hours to charge the battery, but over come the natural 'wastage'.. and at such a low charge rate, designed to do little more than replenish natural loss... you likely only get a few mili-amps of useful charge getting into the battery and the thing will take DAYS to fully charge on one.....
So, they can be useful... but mostly for folks that leave thier bikes garage trophies for long weeks between short rides...... OR for folk too tight to buy a new battery when old ones get tired and start loosing charge capacity as well as more natural wastage.....
Your £20 budget would buy you a new battery... and THAT is where I suggest you put that first bit of spend.....
Does gve you a dilemah though, as they usually come 'dry' without electrolyte and you have to fill them with an acid pack, (make sure they come with one or enough to fill, if you order on-line!).. and even though they may claim to be 'dry' charged on despatch that is never fully charged, and you really need to properly charge one before use..... which begs you buy a charger!!!
OR, fit dry charged, and kick or bump-start t and let the bike charge t up.... whch it probably wot, if it's not running right!!!!
So, later two chargers? look like ones I have in my scrap-bin, waiting for me to get round to chopping ff the croc-clips!!! Err... yeah... that doesn't sound encouraging, does it? They aint great but for the money they'll do the job.... BUT o point tryng to flog a dead battery... start fresh get a new one and eliminate a variable....
In the MEAN TIME... if you dont want your new battery 'killed' by deep-cycle' starting and diagnostics of a tired old engine and probably as tired ols starter motor... go fnd an 'almost' dead car battery, and some jump leads or 30A cooker cable to do your fiffing and faffng with....
Even a pretty dead car battery, rated at maybe 20Ah has a far higher charge capacity than a bike battery, even if it's lost half of it and wont spin a car engine over any more..... little bike starter will far less 'deep-cycle' the thig, and it will keep the starter spining hardr and longer between needing to be recharged than a bike battery will... A-N-D... who cares if deep-cycling it kills it!!! It be dead and scrap before you started! And saves the risk that you will kill brand new battery dong diagnostcs.... I actually have a rather large Land-Rover battery for that exact purpose!
hint; DO NOT, try putting jump leads from a car onto bike battery... ON THE BIKE....
Car alternators are regulated in the generator and will deliver around 16-17v, possibly as much as 19-20. Bikes have a seperate reglatr, and t is clipped at about 14v.... put a car alternator onto a bike battery vai a jump leads, with the battery still connected to the bike, and the bkes regulator will start to try and regulate the extra volts the car alternator is delivering, and get fried in short time.... Amps that car alternator bangs out are also like deep-cycle-discharge working backwards; they can typcally charge a big car battery n around 15-20 minutes.... so they can fill a lttle bike battery in a couple of minutes... charge rate can be higher even than the charge draw from a starter, and even more radily kill the electrolyte or warp plates......
At a pinch, IF you remove battery fro bike to charge off a car on jumps, and are careful to only give them a couple of minutes, ad a few minutes t settle after before fitting back to bike, it's safe 'enough', but f you do t regularly, it will be because the battery s knackered before you started, or will be pretty soon!
Oh-Kay... that's your attry issue sorted.... meanwhle... DAVE SILVER SPARES.... go look at thier web-site... you WILL get very familiar with it over the comng, as well as CMSL.....
CMSL, I think are bases in Holland; useful supplier but prces rarely the best; they do provide the orignal micro-fishe exploded diagarams and original Honda Part numbers, on line though..... DSS sell a lot more than they list, and you can get prce and availability by part-number search havg got the pt-n off CMSL!
DSS, are also pretty good on price, and over the last ten year since e-bay, I have often found they are witing a gnats of any e-bay prices; usually have better availability, and are certaily more relable, and reputeable..... so DONT presume they aregoing t be more expensive, or be put off if they dont have bit you are looking for in the list....
So, to get you started: IF you are sure you want to percevere with this perversion of mechanical masocism....
A/ Check your electrical system; make sure it IS 12v; so look at the regulator, it should be under the tank behind the head-stock and marked with a big red label telling you the voltage. Also check in the generator cover whether you have 'points' igition.
B/ Consult Dave Silver's emporium of all old Honda..... you want prices and availability (se part o's from CMSL if needs!) for:-
1/ Battery
2/ starter motor brushes
3/ Tappet key and lock-but spanner (see Handy-How2's for part numbers)
4/ tappet screws (2 off)
5/ Spark-Plugs
6/ If 6v points ignition; New points & Condenser AND new points retension screw.
c) Battery charger from whatever source, making sure, IF you don't have a 12v system, you get one that will charge a 6v battery.....
If 6v ponts gnition, order the ponts, and condenser and points retension screw, as a matter or course. These are fiddle-finger prime territory and folk get them utterly to pot, get the tmng screw and never grasp the nettle tryng to clean old worn ponts and never replacing the cndenser, o never solvng prolems..... swap out as course and gve yourself at least some chance of elimnatng variables for further diagnostics.
Other wise; I'd recommend you roder the tappet key ad lock-nut spaner, straight away; they are about £15 and save a awful lot of faff
You can have a look at what you got before you buy, by lifting the rocker cover; but IF the tappets have ever been checked, they are likely chewed to bluggery ad rounded on the 'square' at the top you tur them with, from muppets using an adjustable spanner or pliers for want of propper key! If they aren't chewed... then the other end is probably peened to buggery from havg never been adjusted! Ether way... odds is you would do well to rplace, and as they are only somthng daft like £2 each, yo might want to stick them on your first order to save postage later.....
THEN.. with the tappet tool, and a feeler guage... see Handy How2, you can elminate one variable before you start, and do a PROPER service, and set tappets and cam-chai adjustment.
If waiting for parts, I would recomnd you pull the starter solenoid; remember I said ts ce, screwed to gether and has big bits of brass isde.... strip it, clean it, and file/sad the contactor plate flat of any pits or corrosion... then douse the solenod coil in WD40 before putting to back together......
Starter? I would lay odds, and probably as many as teh motor needng top-end overhaul, that the starter is full of old brush dust ad grease, rust, water and other shit.... ad teh comutator plate the brushes run on and make contact wth, is rough, tracked, cvered carbon, and shorng windings left right ad centre......
Pull it strip t, and like the solenoid contactor plate; clean, sand omutator plate sooth and free of corrosion and worst pits, and loose carbn dust
Clean the gear pack, and re-grease; does the wndings i WD40, and re-assemble with new brushes.... this will get as uch as you can fro the starter and help avoid t killing new battery too quick.
While it's out, you will find that it ha a small chai drive to the crank, and that has a one way roller clutch behind the generator rotor.... these often get a bit whney and erratc with age; IF you ca get the geerator rotor off, then strippig that roller, and it is basically just three small metal rollers inside the starter sprocket; you can clean them up with wire-wool, grease and re-assmble and a lot of starter niggles go away. If ot does wth chain live and work the sprocket back and forth a lot between swuibs; and libe the starter chain befor re-assembly.
Again, you may do most of this whilst waitng on bits.
BUT, tappets checked & set; am-chain tensioner adjusted; starter otor re-brshd; solenod cleaned up, starter clutch and chain lubed; and new spark-plugs; remember that old car battery..... for fault findng 'crankig'.... you may have a crack at starting...
And IF you are very lucky, should fire, and if you remember comment about puttg carb settigs to the book, and winding the idle screw out until you ca get it idling hapily.... you COULD have it start, and up and runnng fairly sweetly or the effort.. and some confidence that yu can fit the new battery without frther diagnostc or troublesome starting illinh t n quck time.....
And go for a ride... see how she behaves herself....... But not too far.... remember, you might have to push her home!
BUT, that would be my order of business to gt you off the stops and started... IF you are so utterly daft as to be detrmined to percevere here.....
I would suspect that spruced up starter system and properly serviced motor, will work wonders... but for how long, I dont know... remember, resussitated from derelict, its use that starts to skade them down and find where faults lie....
I the meantime.. remember device fro above... BEFORE you try GO, make SURE you can STOP!!!! Check the tyres the brake shoes, the make cable, the steering and the suspension......and when that Hayned Manual arrves, look long and hard at the 'routine mantenance' list, and ignoe the interval recomndations; you have no garatee that aythg has been done, ever, so you probably need to do ALL of it to make sure it has been, and recntly, or will have to sooner or later! And there'll be a LOT n there to keep you busy for a while!
Have fun! ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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nazK |
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nazK Two Stroke Sniffer
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Posted: 15:38 - 01 May 2017 Post subject: |
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Thanks Teff and ALL!
For now:
Battery on the bike is YB9-B Powerline Battery 12V 8Ah YB9B
Got the charger form that friend and the battery is being charged.
Charge rate indicator on the charger is showing the needle pointing to just pass 3 (which is yellow marked area labeled Medium rate
3-4 AMPS)
If understood the equation correctly Teff mentioned then it should take somewhere between 2 to 3 hours at this rate but then again I am wrong most of the times ____________________ NEW TO BIKE MAINTENANCE- HAVE CD125 BENLY |
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WD Forte World Chat Champion
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Chris45 Nitrous Nuisance
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Hong Kong Phooey World Chat Champion
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
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Posted: 04:02 - 02 May 2017 Post subject: |
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See the gnarled ring, below the knob, that's supposed to be under the rubber boot, that's cocked away from it in the eg pic?
The tube, is just a tube; inside is a half round, half flat bit of rod, before the flexible cable begins. the gnarled knob, should have a sort of plastic cam on it, which when twisted bites into the flat bit of the rod from the tube to apply friction to hold it out. You can use it to adjust how much twist you have to put on the push-pull knob to make it stay stuck in one possition.
Fiddle with it!
Good chance that over tightened and or ham fisted operation of the choke has mashed the friction noggin and it wont make any odds.... but worth a try!
New choke cable is about £6 or £7... so I wouldn't faff too much; it's one of those PITA points, where it's more hassle than its worth to try salvaging a well knackered cable, or living with having to hold it out, or aid with pliers and stuff!! ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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nazK Two Stroke Sniffer
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Chris45 Nitrous Nuisance
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
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Posted: 22:27 - 02 May 2017 Post subject: |
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nazK wrote: | After it starts it only stays running on a full choke.
Is there a choke - throttle with and without combination I need to follow?
and try again or is it time for carburateur? |
How quickly are you trying to turn the choke back off after it starts?
Use choke until warm. Idling on the stand, a motor wont burn as much or get as hot as under a bit of load being ridden.. ish...
On the CG's and the bigger benly's that have a lower compression ratio, they can often be knocked off choke almost as soon as they are running... on the CB's they take a bit more warming, annd after first start need a moment or two with the choke still full on, to get some heat into the pots, but then need the choke backing off a 'bit' so they don't choke to death, but wont take much load without any choke at all, so can be a three or four stage process....
EG:
1; full choke, no throttle, hit start, till engine catches
2; knock back the choke 1/4... let idle, add a little throttle (maybe 1/8th) to get it to pick up a bit, but not bog
3/ As engine warmsm idle should start to lift, then, the chocke may be knocked back maybe to 1/2 and the throttle closed...
4/ when engine starts to race to a high idle speed, choke may be knocked back to perhaps 1/4, and revs should drop to a healthy 'normal' idle, and the engine may be put under load and ridden, the choke knocked off completely, when it starts to take load willingly, on the road.
Most bikes, and especially old bikes will have thier own preferences in how they like to be started and warmed... and they will probably change thier mind depending on the weather, and how cold or damp the day is!
Case of practice and learning what your bike likes.
I DO suspect that a tappet tickle and proper service would likely make matters easier, though; AND, jury is still out on whether it's low on compression and or burning oil, which will likely only be revealed when put into more seriouse use and put under stress on the road. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Posted: 20:19 - 05 May 2017 Post subject: |
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From Light to Lightning at the end of the tunnel......
1. Battery was passed by motorcycle workshop. I tried my battery on a friend's Honda lead 100cc scooter which was not ridden since last summer. Scooter started
2. Then I moved on to spark plugs, there was carbon on both of them and also a bit wet this time. Gave them a good simple clean with cloth, used safety pin inside the plug to rub off any debris and blew in to blow it away
3. Checked if fuel was running from tank to carb by removing the fuel pipe first from the control under the tank and then from the carb. It was all good
4. Slightly unscrewed the screw (right at the bottom of the carb) until fuel started to come out and also it ran through the overflow pipe. Someone asked me to do so to ensure if there was fuel in the carb, did that just to follow along
After all above, Bike started with full choke and and stayed on, gradually going down on choke to running idle with no choke while playing with the throttle following how engine was behaving. Now I have got the gist of it and she starts and stays on every time. Only one time to nearly give me a heart attack when she did not respond at all to start only to realise that I had her in the first gear
I let it run for few minutes, turned it off and then let it run again but this time I turned off the fuel until it died to burn off any fuel wherever it gets flooded. I have since started the bike several times without any problem. I know her personally now
Other bits after that:
5. Oil changed after a short ride to ensure maximum drain. 1.5 ltr of 10w/40 oil type I think it was. See the state of old oil in the image.
6. Choke fixed. Drained oil was transferred to a 1.75 coke bottle to be recycled. But used it to fix the choke. I dipped the top end of choke cable in that bottle to lube it for 5 mins, then used two pliers one to hold and the other one to release the stuck cable. It worked. Choke was fixed back to it's location by removing two nuts on the handle bar.
6. Top storage box from the back was removed. Seat taken off to staple down the cover which is sitting lose.
I tried to keep the cost to none but could not hep save £10 on engine oil and a Friday off from annual leave
I could not have done it myself if it was not for this thread, local workshops, family and friends to lend tools and chargers and couple of YouTubers!
Thank you ALL!!!!
7. Next on : Among many other things RUST on the rims....now that is the next mission. This is not just surface rust, it's stubborn pitted ugly tough hateful ....... ____________________ NEW TO BIKE MAINTENANCE- HAVE CD125 BENLY |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 6 years, 350 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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