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NJD |
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NJD World Chat Champion
Joined: 11 Mar 2015 Karma :
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Posted: 15:48 - 18 May 2017 Post subject: Dodgy caliper dust seal, wut do? (Kawasaki ZR-7S 2004) |
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Shoot me, why is no job ever simple.
Cleaned the calipers today and noticed that a dust seal(?) on one of the rear pistons is sticking out a little. Only cleaned the calipers once before somewhere in the middle of winter and probably a few hundred miles ago at most (don't even think I've covered a thousound since I got it, yet) and didn't notice it back then.
To clean the pads, of which is all I've done this far alongside the caliper, you don't even need to move the pistons, at all, and so unless anyone has a more knowledgeable explanation the only cause I can think of is the time not too long ago that I was filtering down the centre of two lanes and something got stuck in the rear of the bike somewhere eventually dropping itself out afterwards. There's damage to one of the pad also so this may be the case. Debris was most likely small stones. I've noticed no issues since beside the build up to brakes gunking up and starting rubbing / become more crappy hence the clean.
I know what I'm looking at but I'll leave it to you to tell me how bad it is and what the best course of action is. I sense a full caliper strip to change seals.
ps: if calipers do need stripping to change seals also include how easy this is to do for someone who's only experience thus far with brakes is cleaning the pads and spraying brake cleaner into the caliper. I've no issue with taking it to the shop if it's something better left to a non newbie but I don't mind having a crack at it once since I've got a little bit of time of work coming up next week. Oh, and what I'll need to do the job. Ie: I don't have a brake bleeding kit so one of those(?)
Or can I get away with leaving it? Or at the very worst is it at least safe to use for another say 20 miles (over estimate) so I can get to work once more before deciding wut do?
Pictures (I've tried to make them as clear as possible):
https://s1.postimg.org/imfwf1osf/RC1.jpg
https://s7.postimg.org/ktgvh97or/RC2.jpg
https://s11.postimg.org/7c756zg43/RC3.jpg
https://s18.postimg.org/6az1v4wa1/RC4.jpg
Thanks. ____________________ The do it all, T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶k̶e̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶,̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶g̶ ̶l̶u̶m̶p̶,̶ ̶C̶h̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶N̶o̶o̶d̶l̶e̶
Last edited by NJD on 16:33 - 26 May 2017; edited 1 time in total |
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Tankie |
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Tankie Crazy Courier
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dydey90 |
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dydey90 World Chat Champion
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chris-red |
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chris-red Have you considered a TDM?
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chris-red |
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chris-red Have you considered a TDM?
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NJD |
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NJD World Chat Champion
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Posted: 17:00 - 18 May 2017 Post subject: |
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This powerhouse? They don't list a rear caliper seal set for a 2004 ZR-7 (the s makes no difference). I can only assume that since MCN don't list any model changes between release and it being discontinued they're all the same.
I've never bled the brakes before. As above the most I've done thus far is take the pads out for a basic clean and spray of the caliper. I mentioned the bleeding kit since I assumed I'd need one, you have a recommendation for a solo kit?
So as I understand it the order of things is:
(1) Do as I've just done expect for this time press the pedal down to have the pistons pop out and remove the other by hand.
(2) Read the following:
https://s21.postimg.org/6yvrs9liv/image.jpg
https://s7.postimg.org/w4t4z7f1n/image.jpg
https://s8.postimg.org/o8r624wph/image.jpg
So as it stands I'll need (more a checklist for me): DOT 4 Brake fluid (checked manual), caliper bleeding kit, caliper seal kit.
I take it that since advice is being given this task is do-able by a mechanical newbie with limited hands on? As above I don't mind having a pop as once the calipers is of the bike I can take all the bits in the house and work on it inside to my own time limit.
Best to leave the bike where it is and bus it to work tomorrow? ____________________ The do it all, T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶k̶e̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶,̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶g̶ ̶l̶u̶m̶p̶,̶ ̶C̶h̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶N̶o̶o̶d̶l̶e̶ |
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chris-red |
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chris-red Have you considered a TDM?
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Posted: 17:25 - 18 May 2017 Post subject: |
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NJD wrote: | This powerhouse? They don't list a rear caliper seal set for a 2004 ZR-7 (the s makes no difference). I can only assume that since MCN don't list any model changes between release and it being discontinued they're all the same.
I've never bled the brakes before. As above the most I've done thus far is take the pads out for a basic clean and spray of the caliper. I mentioned the bleeding kit since I assumed I'd need one, you have a recommendation for a solo kit?
So as I understand it the order of things is:
(1) Do as I've just done expect for this time press the pedal down to have the pistons pop out and remove the other by hand.
(2) Read the following:
https://s21.postimg.org/6yvrs9liv/image.jpg
https://s7.postimg.org/w4t4z7f1n/image.jpg
https://s8.postimg.org/o8r624wph/image.jpg
So as it stands I'll need (more a checklist for me): DOT 4 Brake fluid (checked manual), caliper bleeding kit, caliper seal kit.
I take it that since advice is being given this task is do-able by a mechanical newbie with limited hands on? As above I don't mind having a pop as once the calipers is of the bike I can take all the bits in the house and work on it inside to my own time limit.
Best to leave the bike where it is and bus it to work tomorrow? |
I'd still ride it, where are you? I'm Essex/East London you are welcome to come round and we sort it if you want. You'd need the seals and some Dot 4. ____________________ Well, you know what they say. If you want to save the world, you have to push a few old ladies down the stairs.
Skudd:- Perhaps she just thinks you are a window licker and is being nice just in case she becomes another Jill Dando.
WANTED:- Fujinon (Fuji) M42 (Screw on) lenses, let me know if you have anything. |
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NJD |
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NJD World Chat Champion
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Fizzer Thou |
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Fizzer Thou World Chat Champion
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NJD |
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NJD World Chat Champion
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Posted: 20:33 - 18 May 2017 Post subject: |
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Fizzer Thou wrote: | The last time that I found dust seals as serious as that they needed replacing once I had removed the pistons as the seals were too badly damaged |
I've no service history and the first and last time I serviced the brakes, in Febuary of this year, was my first time not only on the bike but ever and therefore missing what may have been the warning signs, in terms of wear and tear, on the seals is very much possible although at the same time there's been no warning signs as I've been using the bike to commute to and from work without worry and the only reason I was cleaning the brakes was because I could feel they'd been slowly building up to needing doing and quickened on by the rain. Wasn't expecting to find anything out of place truth be told.
I'm not really bothered by what's caused it anyhow, not that anyone was implying I was, but rather that I've spotted it before it got any worse, if that's possible.
Quite a fancy set up you've got going on. As per the manual, BCF hacks aside, since I've not got compressed air to put into the bleed valve to blow the pistons out I'll pump them out while the Banjo is still attached, the manual then resumes on how to put everything into a million pieces.
Question: Once I've removed the Banjo from the caliper should I just cable tie it at an elevated position somewhere on the bike while I work on the caliper indoors?
Then that leads to avoiding (a) air in the system (b) rain seeping through the cover and getting into the brake line.
I assume it's safer and easier to leave the brake fluid in the resivour while the works being done and then to re-fit the Banjo with new washers and bleed the system once the calipers back in place and secured on the bike ready to go, so bleeding the brakes is the last thing to do?
Re heat: While I realise that most probably a warped disc is caused by long term abuse of over heating on the subject of heat I've not noticed any abnormal heat in the discs as I've been touching them post ride at work the past couple of days and the rear wasn't anything but normal despite getting lots of use. I use touching the discs post ride as a further indicator of when the pads / caliper needs a clean, amongst other things. Then again I won't try and diagnose before getting hands on. Helpful picture is helpful. ____________________ The do it all, T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶k̶e̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶,̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶g̶ ̶l̶u̶m̶p̶,̶ ̶C̶h̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶N̶o̶o̶d̶l̶e̶ |
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RhynoCZ |
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kgm |
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kgm World Chat Champion
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Posted: 21:49 - 18 May 2017 Post subject: |
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I would stick a little plastic bag over the end of the banjo with a cable tie it as you suggest. This won't avoid air getting into the system though. That will happen as soon as you separate the hose from the caliper. You cannot avoid bleeding if taking the caliper off or taking any pistons out. Personally I just drain it entirely and fill with new fluid when done but I use a vacuum bleeder which makes it easy. They'll probably be easier to bleed by conventional methods if there's still fluid in the lines. Bleeding is the last step. You'll find a significant difference in the feel after a rebuild.
I have had the same problem a few times with my ER6 calipers when I've been lax with cleaning during winter. It's quite common, especially with Tokico's it seems. It's caused purely by all the crap/corrosion getting into the grove behind the seal, especially through winter. The problem with this is that the dust seal can then grab the piston which means that it pulls it back into the caliper too much so that as the pads wear the piston doesn't move out properly to take up the space which can lead to excessive lever travel. That aside, you likely won't lose any fluid as the fluid seals are likely still ok. I'd replace them all though since you're in there anyway.
I'd definitely do a full overhaul as those calipers look like they could do with a good clean anyway. I'd probably replace the damaged pad as well but you probably could run it if you really wanted to save the cash.
I would pump the pistons out as suggested in the post above with pictures, but I use bits of wood because it's softer. Once they are almost out them the come out easily by hand. If dealing with the front then make sure you get all the pistons in both calipers to that stage because as soon as one piston pops you'll lose all pressure.
There's one dust seals and one fluid seal per piston. Make sure you clean out the groves until they are spotless. You can use a plastic or brass brush for that, don't use anything harder as you don't want to score the barrel. I soak the seals in clean brake fluid before I put them back in, not for long though its really just to provide some lubrication to protect them when you put the pistons back in. Some like to put a little red rubber grease on the pistons prior to insertion which makes them move a little more freely but it's not strictly necessary and I never have - I just lube them with brake fluid. Put the pistons back in by hand and make sure they are square. You should be able to push them in easily by hand.
Also, separate the slider pins from the caliper body and give them and their barrel a clean. Lubricate them with a little red rubber grease.
As for the pads, give them a good clean with brake cleaner and be careful not to contaminate the surface. A little copper grease rubbed on the back where they contact the pistons and caliper to prevent squeaking is beneficial but don't overdo it.
Bleeding procedures can vary depending on the bike. A vacuum bleeder like the Mitavac is a useful bit of kit but not really necessary.
Further warning - some brake pads contain asbestos so don't blast the caliper (main body not the fluid channels) with compressed air in case you breathe it in. Also if the pistons are badly pitted (I don't think they are looking at your photo) then you might want to consider replacing them as lots of rough pits will wear the new seals quickly. Stainless aftermarket jobs aren't too expensive and don't rust as badly as chromed one (provided you get good ones in the correct grade of stainless). There's a guy called Nick Chambers in Ilkeston who makes quality bits for very reasonable prices. He also does full caliper refurbs to a high standard, they're like new afterwards.
Sorry, this is a bit Tef-like.
Last edited by kgm on 23:04 - 18 May 2017; edited 1 time in total |
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NJD |
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NJD World Chat Champion
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Posted: 22:32 - 18 May 2017 Post subject: |
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There's only one dust and fluid seal per piston on this caliper (picture from manual) so should make it a little less work.
https://s11.postimg.org/ezir1jsxf/002.jpg
Although I can only imagine that pumping the pistons out may be a little more of a pain in the rear because of the state of the seal stuck where it is, time will tell.
Yeah the manual reads to lubricate seals with brake fluid and then the outer of the piston body with brake fluid also.
I'll pick some red rubber up form Halfords for the slider pins.
I'll admit to neglecting the greasing or cleaning of the slider pins since my ownership in November since the first time I did this job it was cold, dark and freezing and I just wanted to get in and out in one piece and so neglected even trying to figure out what's what, the manual doesn't really give clear instructions. Looked today and looks like a clip of sorts holds the entire body in place and then slides out when removed (as it pings into the distance never to be seen again). Good job I didn't try today as I would have ended up using copper grease, lesson learnt.
I mentioned air in the system because didn't want to bugger it up but if it's going to happen then I assume, lord elp me, that the whole bleeding process with fresh fluid will remove air from the system once it starts draining through? I'll stick some electrical tape over the end as well as something like a sandwich bag and cable tie it at an elevated height.
Pictures where taken prior to the cleaning of the caliper, albeit an amateurish half arsed that all do one, but nonetheless sliding pins and elsewhere will need doing.
Bleeding kits, from what I'm seeing, are mostly twenty quid. Wouldn't something like this do the job? Seems like a piece of thin rubber tube and a good suck to get things flowing would be the Borg method of the day (ie: these kits just make it easier at an increased cost?).
Decided against riding it because bike made a noise pressing on the rear brake a couple of times earlier rolling it backwards down the path, as a post clean caliper mini test before riding, and so now I know what I'm looking at it's just the easier option rather then end up out star-fished on the pavement because potato'd.
I'll worry about bleeding when it comes to it, post job, because I've some time of next week and so providing there's a good day I can get around to that. Banjo all take two seconds to get of and work remove caliper so that all be nice. Jealous at how easier it would be to work on things when the weather doesn't determine the schedule.
Won't be able to work on the bike until next week so bit of a prolonged wait on update.
Re: seals
Does anyone have a source for the right ones? 2004 ZR-7S (Owners manual says ZR750-H3 on the front).
this thread seems to suggest a lot of sites get it wrong. This caliper set, perhaps the right one doesn't include half of what this one does although cannot be sure the seals are the right size.
edit:
or should I just get the seals rather than a kit since I've got a set of copper washers and everything else doesn't need replacing? ____________________ The do it all, T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶k̶e̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶,̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶g̶ ̶l̶u̶m̶p̶,̶ ̶C̶h̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶N̶o̶o̶d̶l̶e̶ |
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kgm |
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kgm World Chat Champion
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Posted: 23:19 - 18 May 2017 Post subject: |
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NJD wrote: | There's only one dust and fluid seal per piston on this caliper
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Yes, sorry that was the whisky talking. Post edited.
NJD wrote: |
Although I can only imagine that pumping the pistons out may be a little more of a pain in the rear because of the state of the seal stuck where it is, time will tell.
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Keep pumping them out and the seal will probably be pulled out as the piston protrudes. Not an issue since you'll be replacing it with a new one anyway.
[/quote]
NJD wrote: |
I'll pick some red rubber up form Halfords for the slider pins.
I'll admit to neglecting the greasing or cleaning of the slider pins since my ownership in November
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My local Halfords doesn't have any but it's cheap online. Sliders don't really need done all that often to be honest. Couple of times a year. If the rubber boots have swollen they can cause extra friction though - one thing to look for if someone has used inappropriate grease previously.
NJD wrote: |
Good job I didn't try today as I would have ended up using copper grease, lesson learnt.
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Copper grease is fine for the back of the pads, the red stuff for anything coming into contact with rubber as copper can cause the rubber to swell.
[/quote]
NJD wrote: |
....that the whole bleeding process with fresh fluid will remove air from the system once it starts draining through? I'll stick some electrical tape over the end as well as something like a sandwich bag and cable tie it at an elevated height.
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It will, I wouldn't bother with tape though. The bag held on with an elastic band is just to stop it spilling everywhere. It's nasty stuff and will strip paint of left on it.
NJD wrote: |
Bleeding kits, from what I'm seeing, are mostly twenty quid. Wouldn't something like this do the job? Seems like a piece of thin rubber tube and a good suck to get things flowing would be the Borg method of the day (ie: these kits just make it easier at an increased cost?).
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All you really need is clean brake fluid, some clear pipe to attached to the bleed nipple and a jam jar. Don't suck on it, it's not like draining a fuel tank and you don't want that stuff in your mouth.
https://www.sportsbikeshop.co.uk/motorcycle_parts/content_prod/101718 - This sort of thing is just the above plus a one way valve to stop you letting any air in if you are careless. There's a few different brands on SBS and Halfords also sell them. I use a Mityvac vacuum pump but those are expensive and not really necessary. Does make it really quick though.
Watch a youtube video, it's really quite a simple job on conventional brakes. The only things to watch out for is when doing the front on some bikes one caliper should be done before the other. Normally the one which links most directly to the master cylinder (doesn't apply to race type setups). Linked brake systems can add complications too.
Last edited by kgm on 23:30 - 18 May 2017; edited 1 time in total |
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kgm World Chat Champion
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wr6133 |
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wr6133 World Chat Champion
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NJD World Chat Champion
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iooi |
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iooi Super Spammer
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Posted: 06:15 - 19 May 2017 Post subject: |
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Remove dust seal and just smeer some red rubber grease in its place ____________________ Just because my bike was A DIVVY, does not mean i am...... |
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Baffler186 |
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Baffler186 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 11:28 - 19 May 2017 Post subject: |
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It's easier than it sounds once you have all your new bits and seals ready. Pump out pistons evenly, as Fizzer says, then you should be able to get the pistons out without any tools. Pistons can be cleaned up and re-used. Make sure you thoroughly clean the seats that the seals go in, otherwise they won't seal properly. Don't use a metal object else you'll score the metal, it's very soft.
Re-build the cleaned caliper with new pads and seals. I just use brake fluid to lubricate the pistons to get them back in without un-seating the seals. You can use rubber grease, some do and some don't.
Try to order a syringe with a tight fitting clear hose, that way you can suck up your brake fluid and inject it slowly into the bleed nipple, this should take the majority of air upwards and out at the master cyclinder end.
Careful not to inject too fast, else the fluid will piss out at the top and cover your paintwork and garage.
When your reservoir is full, go through the normal bleeding process to get any last bits of air out (squeeze brake lever and hold, release bleed nipple, tighten bleed nipple, release brake lever, repeat as necessary).
If you still don't have any pressure at the lever, inject more fluid in from the bleed nipple and give the calipers and lines a good tap. Air can sometimes get trapped. Once it's all done, throw away what's left of your brake fluid, as you shouldn't re-use an opened bottle. ____________________ Current: 2009 SV650 S, 1990 Kawasaki GT550
Previous: 2009 CBF125, 1998 GSF600, 2004 FZ6 Fazer, 1978 CB400a Hondamatic |
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NJD |
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NJD World Chat Champion
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Posted: 22:00 - 19 May 2017 Post subject: |
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So the barrel (the part the piston resides in?) is cleaned with a brass brush. I've got an un-used one of these so that should be good for the job?
The manual reads "For cleaning the parts, use only disc brake fluid, isopropyl alchol or ethyl alchol," what does that apply to?
Also brake fluid, does it matter what brand? I believe I read in the manual it says not to mix two different brands. Does that apply to bleeding also, which is a bit silly and probably not the case, or just in the sense of every day use (ie: don't top it up with a different one if level is low). I ask if the brand matters because I went to buy 1L of castrol brake fluid, which I assume is overkill, for a tenner but wanted to be sure. I imagine any branded DOT 4 will do? Also, since as stated above it's one use only, is brake fluid really a tenner? (I loathe how expensive bike fluids and consumable cans are etc)
I ordered the bleed kit above (cheap fiver one) and ordered the seals from Wemoto (FYI: Wemoto did stock the seal kit for the ZR-7S rear but as individual parts. Referred to the manual and orederd one of what the diagram shows, twenty five quid. Not sure if I'll need anything beside seals but as this entire episode has shown I know the condition of nothing so nowt wrong with a few spares).
Red rubber grease eludes me. How Halfords don't stock it is beyond me. Is obtainable online but there's a couple of places I'll try locally first.
Oh, and the funny looks you get when you walk around poundland with: latex gloves, toothbrushes, cotton buds and cloths (I'm in for a fun Friday night). I'm not weird, honest. ____________________ The do it all, T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶k̶e̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶,̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶g̶ ̶l̶u̶m̶p̶,̶ ̶C̶h̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶N̶o̶o̶d̶l̶e̶ |
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kgm |
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kgm World Chat Champion
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Hong Kong Phooey |
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Hong Kong Phooey World Chat Champion
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Posted: 21:55 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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NJD wrote: |
Also brake fluid, does it matter what brand? I believe I read in the manual it says not to mix two different brands. Does that apply to bleeding also, which is a bit silly and probably not the case, or just in the sense of every day use (ie: don't top it up with a different one if level is low). I ask if the brand matters because I went to buy 1L of castrol brake fluid, which I assume is overkill, for a tenner but wanted to be sure. I imagine any branded DOT 4 will do? Also, since as stated above it's one use only, is brake fluid really a tenner? (I loathe how expensive bike fluids and consumable cans are etc)
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Ok to mix brands, but not recommend to mix grades (e.g
3 with 4 or 5.1) and don't mix DOT 5 with others. If you've had one that's been open a while then you either test it or bin it as it absorbs moisture.
Cheaper from eurocarparts (pagid DOT4) or online. ____________________
'81 CG125, '97 FZS600 : '99 CBR600F4, '09 KTM RC8 |
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NJD |
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NJD World Chat Champion
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Posted: 23:39 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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Thanks all.
Mainly just waiting on parts to be delivered before I touch anything. Wednesday is the latest delivery date expectation and so should be when I can loose/snap/fudge up a billion and one things. Seems to be one of them jobs whereby the parts are only obtainable from a hundred and one different sources.
I've no idea what to expect given that at the start of this thread while I realised something wasn't exactly right I wasn't as knowledgeable as I've since, or feel I have, become after reading all the advice. Although, again, talking about how to do something and doing it are two different things. Dramatics aside the weather looks nice next week and while that's two fold in that I want to be out and hooning around it should mean I can take my time while getting burnt without feeling at all rushed.
Wemoto parcel ordered yesterday and arrived today. Turns out they do sell red rubber grease but you have to search for it on their website. Ended up getting some from eBay, "Fuchs Renolit Red Rubber Grease," their all the same as I understand it plus was just under nine squid so saved me an arm and a leg compared to everywhere else.
Brake fluid's about the only thing left to buy. Thanks for the above advice and clarification re: mixing types. Probably just go with Halfords to save waiting on another delivery. I've become a little more eager to crack on with the task at hand since last post. Oh, that and a couple of more things I've since added to the list, nothing a quick trip to Poundland can't source because "no, absolute not, no bloody oily parts or things in this house!" Looks like I'm hanging me arse out the back door half in half out taking a caliper apart.
Someone hasn't seen the oil, enough to open my own shop, and other service bits hidden away. Muhahaha.
<Currently receiving abuse for working on my own bike and "take shop noaw!" with justification being this mechanical error is, to my understanding, not of my doing and that cleaning the brakes not only saved me £27/£45 but has allowed me to spot an issue that has potentially saved me being splattered on pavement falling on deaf ears. Send help.> ____________________ The do it all, T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶k̶e̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶,̶ ̶T̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶g̶ ̶l̶u̶m̶p̶,̶ ̶C̶h̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶N̶o̶o̶d̶l̶e̶ |
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kramdra |
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kramdra World Chat Champion
Joined: 28 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 6 years, 344 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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