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General Election: 8th June 2017

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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:12 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
My (partial) postcode isn't even on your list.

You're outside London? UK excluding London is 454 per room, so it makes a whopping difference.


M.C wrote:
And as you keep ignoring it's a national rate it would have to be a national average wouldn't it?

You've lost me. How are you being victimised by that?


M.C wrote:
I am my mums child am I not? I live at home do I not?

Those are your choices of identity. Nobody is forcing you to describe yourself as a child, or that you live in someone else's home (that's provided for them). Even if I moved in to look after a coffin dodging parent, I'd never use that terminology, because that's not how I self identify.

I'm just trying to get a handle on what your grievance against the Tories actually is, and what might be informing it.


M.C wrote:
There are reasons a [confusing term alert] child might have to live with their elderly parent, I'll let imagine what these are.

I'll have to, since it doesn't look like you're going to persuade us with information. You've been talking about moving away since 2015, I'll have to note.


M.C wrote:
What do you think I have done?

I don't know, because you won't say.

I'm sorry this is confusing you, but honestly, I don't know what your situation is, or why you think it's so bad, or why you're blaming the Tories for it.


M.C wrote:
I have a deposit saved up, I just need to move somewhere I can actually afford to buy (which means finding a new job etc.).

I honestly wish you the best with that. You're just after implying (but as always, not stating) that you "have" to live with your mum though. I'm very confused.


M.C wrote:
You go on about scroungers and then ignore the policies which make work less attractive.

Because I'm not seeing what policy that is, because you haven't told me. Despite your mystery grievance, you're still working, and have still managed to save up money, so what's the problem? If you truly thought you'd be better off on the dole, why aren't you doing that?


M.C wrote:
You're a Tory, make sure to vote sharia May Thumbs Up

I'm not, and many of her manifesto threats appal me. The prospect of a large Sharia May majority is horrifying. The only thing that scares me more is the shadow of a Corbyn regime, or the LimpDems or Scotch Racialists getting a say. But that doesn't make me a Tory by default.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:13 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

From elsewhere


Quote:
My grandfather was a police sergeant. They raised 2 children in a council house that cost them next to nothing which they later bought for next to nothing and he retired at 50 years old. They spent the next 30 years seeing out the winter in Majorca 5 months a year and complain now about 'magic money trees' and 'free education'.

1 person supported a family of 4 without education in a decent house and was able to retire at 50. They are now 92 and 90. Final salary pension indexed link and a subsidised home.

So, in short. 30 years work has financed 182 years of decent living.



So wait who were / are the scroungers again?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:19 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
So wait who were / are the scroungers again?

The Baby Boomers, we know.

Which party is promising to cull them? Eager voter wants to know.

Sharia is only promising to steal their houses after they're dead, but that does nothing to address the actual problem.
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JonB
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PostPosted: 14:25 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget the Triple Lock.

But it's ok. Take away free school lunches, because it's the kids fault we are in this mess...

At least this time around there are some real choices. Just a shame Labour and Tories are so far removed from what I'm looking for in a government...
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:29 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonB wrote:
I've never really taken Itchy seriously.

If I had, I'd be living in Outer Mongolia under a tin foil hat. By 2017 we would be building houses out of 50 notes after the most amazing hyperinflation.

Turns out, my house (that I pay in full for - at market rate, by the way) is built out of bricks and mortar.


Were the outcomes actually any different? In a hyperinflation living standards decline sharply.

What happened since 2008. Living standards declined sharply.

Here's also another little clue none of the problems have actually been resolved and perhaps become worse.

One of the big clues to this is why are there so many cuts absolutely everywhere. Even to their core voters such as the social care for older people. Even education and health cuts.

Its almost like the state is staving of bankruptcy by any means it can find.

Almost.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:42 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
What happened since 2008. Living standards declined sharply.

How sharply, and according to whom?

I'd suggest that we're sliding slowly down the demographic timebomb slope, rather than tumbling arse over tit.
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 20:26 - 19 May 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:52 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

How sharply, and according to whom?

I'd suggest that we're sliding slowly down the demographic timebomb slope, rather than tumbling arse over tit.


GDP per capita fell considerably from about $48,000 GDP per capita to $42,106.

Or about 13%. On the face of it this doesn't seem to bad.

Except the calculation on imputed rent increased as a proportion of GDP after 2008 from about 7% to 12%. Meaning the $48000 was inflated by about 7%.

So
$44640 2008
$36632 2015

Or an 18% fall.

This does not account for under counted inflation of course:

http://www.chocablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/smallegg.png?265146

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/cpsprodpb/E417/production/_92319385_p04fmqfv.jpg
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Last edited by Itchy on 14:54 - 19 May 2017; edited 1 time in total
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M.C
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Either your retired Mum broke medical science, or you're in your mid twenties and upwards.

https://wifflelevertofull.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/sorry.jpg?w=270&h=224

When did I say I wasn't? Eh?

Rogerborg wrote:

You're outside London? UK excluding London is 454 per room, so it makes a whopping difference.

No, I am under 'North' which's about as helpful as saying the milky way. Bottom of their scale, which's still above what everyone I know pays Rolling Eyes

Quote:
You've lost me. How are you being victimised by that?

It's not a personal M.C tax, it applies to every child/teenager/manchild/boyman living in a council property across England.

Quote:
I'm just trying to get a handle on what your grievance against the Tories actually is, and what might be informing it.

If you can't even understand my argument after 1700 hundred pages maybe we should leave it here?

Quote:
More stuff I can't be arsed quoting.

Yes I've mulled over many ideas, including commuting into London, and staying at some sort of home during the week. Also see my alternative housing thread for ideas of how to stay in London (for work rather than pleasure). It's strange how one second I'm a stay at home scrounger, and the next baffling for saving up a deposit with the aim of one day (hopefully sooner than later) owning a home Confused
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 15:12 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
If you can't even understand my argument after 1700 hundred pages maybe we should leave it here?


It could be because you haven't put a coherent argument forward.

You posed your Grievance " I don't like to pay rent to the local authority, even if it's less than average" but your only reason for this was that you live in a shithole.

The question "why should you pay less rent" is not fully answered by "it's a rough estate". If the rent you pay is too high for that area you can afford to rent somewhere nicer, If the rents in nicer places are unaffordable for you then it's the place you can afford to live.

If other circumstances are keeping you there, then lower rents won't help.
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JonB
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PostPosted: 15:32 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure there are plenty more people who would die for below market rent, secured tenancy and the ability after a certain period of time to purchase their house lower than market value and then sell on at full market value, pocketing the difference.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
M.C wrote:
If you can't even understand my argument after 1700 hundred pages maybe we should leave it here?


It could be because you haven't put a coherent argument forward.

You posed your Grievance " I don't like to pay rent to the local authority, even if it's less than average" but your only reason for this was that you live in a shithole.

The question "why should you pay less rent" is not fully answered by "it's a rough estate". If the rent you pay is too high for that area you can afford to rent somewhere nicer, If the rents in nicer places are unaffordable for you then it's the place you can afford to live.

If other circumstances are keeping you there, then lower rents won't help.

Spent several pages arguing it's not less than average but yeah whatever Rolling Eyes This was never a please help me with my housing situation thread, it was an example of how the Tories do not help working people.

JonB wrote:
I'm sure there are plenty more people who would die for below market rent, secured tenancy and the ability after a certain period of time to purchase their house lower than market value and then sell on at full market value, pocketing the difference.

Ignoring that council tenancies (the ones that are left) aren't for life anymore, and buying them's still out-of-reach for a lot of people. I for example couldn't buy where I live despite the discount... not moaning just stating the realities of the market.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 15:36 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
M.C wrote:
If you can't even understand my argument after 1700 hundred pages maybe we should leave it here?


It could be because you haven't put a coherent argument forward.

You posed your Grievance " I don't like to pay rent to the local authority, even if it's less than average" but your only reason for this was that you live in a shithole.

The question "why should you pay less rent" is not fully answered by "it's a rough estate". If the rent you pay is too high for that area you can afford to rent somewhere nicer, If the rents in nicer places are unaffordable for you then it's the place you can afford to live.

If other circumstances are keeping you there, then lower rents won't help.


Don't forget his initial whine was that the nasty Tories had increased the tiny, way under market value amount, he had to pay in rent towards his mummy's free, house by 80 million % in under 2 years.

Even when it was pointed out several times that his local Labour council actually set rent and rent increases.

He then started blaming those bastard Tories with non dependant deductions, even though it was shown that his local council decide the housing benefits and how much it should drop and how much should be paid by the non dependant worker in the household.

I mean, it's shit there apparently, but it's his home, so he can't leave, because it offers "security".

......otherwise known as "Bitty" Smile
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 16:19 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

Spent several pages arguing it's not less than average but yeah whatever Rolling Eyes This was never a please help me with my housing situation thread, it was an example of how the Tories do not help working people.


And the conservative government don't set your rent. the local authority has full freedom over that, they need to money for services and upkeep on social housing,

you wouldn't expect a private landlord to be forced to rent a property out at a loss or break even, so why should your landlord? you get the added benefit of the profit being spent on things you use.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 16:39 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Jewlio Rides Again wrote:


Oh, I thought we were discussing rental, not buying?


Average rent will be around 800 a month. Meaning at 30% income, the household would need to be on a take home income of 2666 a month.

That would work out to an annual pre tax salary of around 40K.

I'd say 30% is low if anything with regards to percentage of earnings on housing costs. M.C. is onto a winner whether he thinks it or not.


Pointless average is still pointless.

You get affluent areas skewing the overall statistics. Imagine applying them averages to Burnley, for example?

Is OK saying ' average ' but it's nothing more than a buzzword, and doesn't really apply to the majority of people.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:57 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Don't forget his initial whine was that the nasty Tories had increased the tiny, way under market value amount, he had to pay in rent towards his mummy's free, house by 80 million % in under 2 years.

Even when it was pointed out several times that his local Labour council actually set rent and rent increases.

He then started blaming those bastard Tories with non dependant deductions, even though it was shown that his local council decide the housing benefits and how much it should drop and how much should be paid by the non dependant worker in the household.

I mean, it's shit there apparently, but it's his home, so he can't leave, because it offers "security".

......otherwise known as "Bitty" Smile


Monkeywrencher wrote:
And the conservative government don't set your rent. the local authority has full freedom over that, they need to money for services and upkeep on social housing,

you wouldn't expect a private landlord to be forced to rent a property out at a loss or break even, so why should your landlord? you get the added benefit of the profit being spent on things you use.


I give up trying to explain this to you. You have a government report explaining it was frozen under Labour, that the Tory coalition decided to raise it, every council in England charges the same rate and yet it's decided locally?
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 17:33 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Government requires all local authorities to calculate the rent for each of their properties according to a set formula.
This formula takes into account:
the market value of the individual property in January 1999 compared to the national average value for other local authority properties
the number of bedrooms in the property
average earnings of manual workers in the county or borough compared to national average earnings.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 19:07 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last post on this subject because this is ridiculous. I said several pages ago what I paid, and listed a load of councils that stated this was set by government. To show the spread:

Manchester charges 14.80-95.45

In Cornwall 14.80-95.45

In Kent 14.80-95.45

For the last time it's not set locally. It would probably be fairer if it was but whatever, people want to vilify a system they don't even understand. Vote for May in the upcoming elections, then when you get f**ked over I can have a good laugh Thumbs Up
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
[What I pay to my mum is] not less than average

It absolutely is. It's less than London average, it's less than national average. It might be close to the minimum that you'd pay for bedsit in Grimsby with Warped as your live-in landlord, but that's neither here nor there.

You seem to have no grasp of what adults actually pay to support themselves.

All I'm hearing is "I deserve," and "I'm owed," and "Gubmint needs to pay".

I honestly despair for this nation, when erudite, educated chaps like yourself can't fathom that The Gubmint is other people, and that your superannuated infancy is funded by us.

Do you really not want to hold the title deeds to a pile of bricks and mortar and say "This is mine, traded for the value that I have created, with nothing owed to nobody." ?

Despair, I do.
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JonB
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PostPosted: 20:43 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
[What I pay to my mum is] not less than average

It absolutely is. It's less than London average, it's less than national average. It might be close to the minimum that you'd pay for bedsit in Grimsby with Warped as your live-in landlord, but that's neither here nor there.

You seem to have no grasp of what adults actually pay to support themselves.

All I'm hearing is "I deserve," and "I'm owed," and "Gubmint needs to pay".

I honestly despair for this nation, when erudite, educated chaps like yourself can't fathom that The Gubmint is other people, and that your superannuated infancy is funded by us.

Do you really not want to hold the title deeds to a pile of bricks and mortar and say "This is mine, traded for the value that I have created, with nothing owed to nobody." ?

Despair, I do.

I think you are wasting your time.

You only have to watch Question Time to realise the view we are seeing is not in isolation.

A generation brought up during the New Labour years. Little wonder our politics has swung fully to the right.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:09 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can tell them that they don't have to be this way though.

They can choose to bumble through life blaming The Gubmint and everyone else for forcing them to work for jolly well nearly 6 days out of 10, pissing and moaning all the time that they deserve more than what they've earned.

Or they can choose to say, OK, life and other people owe me nothing, but I'll do the best I can with what I have to hand, and perhaps I'll even produce a little bit extra that the grasping masses can seize, ungrateful sods though they are, though they'll never thank me for it.

I mean, we can tell them, but they don't have to listen.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 21:39 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
I mean, we can tell them, but they don't have to listen.


Yes, all very easy to rail on the younger generations after we've been able to see the benefits of final salary pensions, cheaper house prices. Pulling the ladder up behind us as we doesn't help them at all. Claiming we did it all with no help is a bogus argument, the system helped that system has fallen apart but we still got the benefit of it.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:57 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Encourage, not rail.

What, you think I have a pension that will pay for more than the newspaper to wrap me in, or a house that can have a cat swung in it? Laughing

And yet somehow I soldier on, mugged for half of what I earn, paying for M.C's rent rebate, although he'll never acknowledge it, or spit out a word of thanks.

Perhaps the smart thing to do is to check out and live off the largesse of the Social. Tens of millions of both Old and New Brits are enjoying the spoils of sponging. If M.C wants to join them, I'll understand. Remaining infantilised is certainly the easy route. It might even be the smart route.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 22:27 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were you, I'd be more miffed that my taxpayers contributions are funding multi million/billion corps tax avoidance, whilst the real benefactors sit in their ivory towers, casting down the chicken feed for the desperate proles to squabble over.
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JonB
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PostPosted: 22:30 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again wrote:
If I were you, I'd be more miffed that my taxpayers contributions are funding multi million/billion corps tax avoidance, whilst the real benefactors sit in their ivory towers, casting down the chicken feed for the desperate proles to squabble over.

I don't think anybody is questioning the wisdom of council housing/benefits. In fact they are the backbone of sensible, caring society.

It's more an issue that recipients of what are essentially social safety blankets are ungrateful of the support they are receiving from fellow taxpayers.

Ultimately, for all their faults, big corporates are employers and by default do serve a general purpose to the population.

If we can't get corporates to pay corporation tax at 17% - I don't think we stand much chance at 26%. In fact it's even less likely they will be domiciled here and invest/increase employment opportunities...
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 00:15 - 20 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again wrote:
mpd72 wrote:


Average rent will be around 800 a month. Meaning at 30% income, the household would need to be on a take home income of 2666 a month.

That would work out to an annual pre tax salary of around 40K.

I'd say 30% is low if anything with regards to percentage of earnings on housing costs. M.C. is onto a winner whether he thinks it or not.


Pointless average is still pointless.

You get affluent areas skewing the overall statistics. Imagine applying them averages to Burnley, for example?

Is OK saying ' average ' but it's nothing more than a buzzword, and doesn't really apply to the majority of people.


Of course. Never even thought that shitheads living in shit areas would lower the national average.

Sorry, you should have reminded me earlier.
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