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A Newbie's CD125 Benly Part Restoration Project

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nazK
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Joined: 29 Apr 2017
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PostPosted: 22:57 - 06 May 2017    Post subject: A Newbie's CD125 Benly Part Restoration Project Reply with quote

https://preview.ibb.co/hwhaJ5/1.jpg


Leading on from previous thread here:https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=319639

Overpaid Benly, Open Air Garage, Minimum Wage Assistant:),
Borrowed Tools, Haynes Manual and no idea where to start
BUT with Lots of Commitment and Emotional Attachment with This Bike..

Only until yesterday and over the last week, I was struggling with starting and keeping her running and just when that got fixed and only after half an hour of ride on, I could not stand the sight of rust on the rims and that kicked off this project. I thought to start with the rear wheel because this is the one I hate most. I had to remove it since there is no way I can remove the rust while it's on the bike.

I started with removing the rear wheel which lead on to removing chain cover and the side cover, seat and fuel tank and then I thought that's enough for now Smile

Task 1: To Remove Rust of The Rear Rim - Coke, steelwool, vinegar and tons of youtube videos? Nah My rust is next level? I am hopeful someone will help me out here.....

https://preview.ibb.co/iOMrrQ/r1.jpg

https://thumb.ibb.co/hCLt5k/r2.jpg
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pepperami
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PostPosted: 11:42 - 07 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok . I think the first thing is to ensure that the rust is not compromising structural integrity of the wheel. I.e. Is it making the wheel weak?

Then how far do you want to go with making this bike better?
Do you want to completely rebuild the wheel or just wire brush the rust off and paint the wheel with rattle can silver paint and then lacquer after when dry.
As you have the wheel off , why not do the bearings and the rear sprocket at the same time.
I'm certain someone has mentioned Dave Silver Spares.
I can recommend them as they have helped me with spares for my tatty old Superdream of loveliness.
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nazK
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PostPosted: 14:21 - 07 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

There you go then...

Bought wire brush and other bits to deal with first layer of rust for now.

Chain, front sprocket and back sprocket together with the hub whatever it is called has also been removed.
I don't know what to inspect on the chain and both sprockets to decide if they are good to go after cleaning or shall I change them?

https://preview.ibb.co/k0pEBQ/7may1.jpg

https://preview.ibb.co/h37O5k/7may2.jpg

https://preview.ibb.co/jtgSWQ/7may3.jpg

https://preview.ibb.co/k4gi5k/7may4.jpg

https://preview.ibb.co/jnHO5k/7may5.jpg
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 19:34 - 07 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starting with Wheels. If the rust is that bad on the outside of the rim, what is it like INSIDE under the tyre? That is where I would start on this one.

If under the tyre, the rust is as bad, and metal has started to go 'thin' round the spoke nipples; then, as this bike starts to get some use, the flexing and vibration, is gong to start to see any weak-spots stretched, stressed and ground away until something 'gives'.

Wire spoke wheels, as a structure, 'work' by the spokes being in tension, pulling the rim towards the hub, holding it 'round'.If the spokes start to go out of tension, which they will naturally, as the metal 'relaxes' and vibration/movement wears the restraints at the ends; so they 'need' periodic maintenance, 'spoke tensioning' from time to time anyway, to keep them round and keep them strong. If not, as they relax, as the joints wear, so they loose 'strength' in the structure; they go out of round, they don't resist loads as much, and flex, and that movement sees the joints wear more, spokes relax more, and they get worse quickly.

That wheel; rust is quite severe in the outside of the rim, and the chrome is pretty much 'gone'.. THAT s only cosmetic.. but hints that if rust is that bad on the outside, it's likely to be a lot worse on the inside. IF you get that cleaned off.. it's still not going to look pretty; what would you do? Some spray-paint over the old rust, some have the whole wheel powder dipped; Quote a vogue among the Geeknik-Hipster Brat-Chop brigade, and 'fine' as long as the wheel was sound to start with!! But it's only tackling the 'pretties'. If rim that rusty, look at the spokes. Rust may clean up, and , you might oil them to stop it coming back, or 'something'.. but still just the pretties. Critical bit is the nipple at the top, and that is likely rusted solid to the spoke, so even if the spoke's not shot, you'll struggle to put proper tension on it. Without that tension, you have a weak wheel, that's only gong to get weaker, whether the rim is still 'sound' or not.

If, under the tyre, the rim is going, then even if the spoke holes haven't gone thin, it wont have the mechanical support around the tyre; but likely to have gone thin in the gulley, around and between the spoke nipples. Often trying to tension up an old rim, rather than put tension on the spoke, you will just bend the metal around the hole; and in worst cases, especially if it happens on the road, the nipple will 'pull through' the rim.

Pulling the tyre, and inspecting, is just the first job. You may, soaking the nipples from the inside in plus-gas or old engine oil, and carefully tweaking them, get them to free up, and then more 'may' be able to re-tension. But I wouldn't be over-optimistic.

New rims, may be as little as 30 each, and when you go shop, very tempting to consider upgrading to alloy rather than chrome-steel for a few extra . Alloy don't rust... it 'fatigues'! Then a spoke set is probably about 20, and agan tepting to pay little extra for stainless. As alluded to before, you can build a wheel, about as cheaply as fit a new tyre to it! But it IS a damnably dexterous job. And, a 'pro' will charge about 40-50 to do a pro-build around your hub; which pushes it up into a 100-150 job all told, BUT, pro will do a wheel in a couple of hours, and hand you a known good wheel for it! I can wally around with the bits for a week-end, and still not be sure about t at the end!

THAT is where this is headed; And the here and now, whilst you poke and prod with wire-wool and vinegar and try and ignore that unpalatable, it's not gong to go away... and even if you make it look a bit better..... for how long? Its STILL a rotten wheel. Cutting to the chase, getting ew rims, new spokes and pro-build about your hubs, you are looking at the tick end of 300.. probably as much as the bike cost, or close enough before doing anything else....

Util I had the tyres off and had inspected the inside of the rim, and tried tweeking spoke nipples; I WOULD NOT be in any hurry to worry about the state of the chain & sprockets, or much else at all, to be honest.

Chan & Sprockets? Look not too bad TBH; probably fitted relatively recently, on 'scrub-up'... rear sprocket still has plastic coating beyond where teeth rub on chan.. teeth still look a decent shape they aren't pointed or beaked or anything, that's not an old cog. Chain? Who knows. Needs cleaning. For NOW, I would stick the chain into an old coffee jar of old engine oil to 'pickle' and stop it rusting, whilst I dealt with everything else... it's not a bg deal, and replacement chain alone's not enormously expensive anyway.

Wheels.. brakes, steering, suspension....

Stop looking at the 'pretty bits'!! Worry about the mechanics... of you will be spending a lot of time and money to have a slightly more pretty pile of scrap!
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nazK
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PostPosted: 22:43 - 07 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's it then Teff, time to remove the tyre and inspect the rim on the inside first.

I did take the wheel to kwik fit and another local car tyre shop today but they were not interested and bike repair shop was closed today that's after I tried to remove the tyre myself but failed without proper tyre removal spoons.

Probably take the front wheel too if I could learn in time how to take that off the bike.

Chain will also get it's coffee tomorrow in the old engine oil changed few days back Smile

Will try again and share the findings!
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nazK
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PostPosted: 15:28 - 15 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://image.ibb.co/mfePi5/spoons.jpg


I have been removing rust off the rims and spokes over the last few days as well as cleaned the hubs between the spokes. I managed to reach the bare metal under the rust. It was not easy, lots of sanding first with wirebrush, steel wool and then with wet and dry sand paper on the rims and flexible sanding sponges on the spokes. Fortunately the metal looked solid under the rust. 100% of the chrome on the most part of the rear wheel has gone. I also sanded off the rims to get rid off pitted chrome to get a smooth layer.

I was this close to now paint the rims but then I thought to give it another try to remove the tyres. There is no way I was going to pay 20 pounds to get them removed and another 20 to have them back on.

Butter Knives came to rescue and of course some learn as you go technique. These tyres were rock solid and gave me tough time but off they are now.

Had a good look on the inside of the rims. Yes there is rust, but not as bad as it was on the outside and they are solid. The nipple holes are not compromised.

Now next step is to have spokes removed, get the hub polished/sprayed? get the rims sanded off with better access to hard to reach areas and then get them chromed or sprayed. Will see what fits the budget which is not huge, probably hammerite spray or plasti dip?

What size spoke wrench do I need here? and please share the weblink if anyone knows. Also any ideas on painting rims and hubs?
I will be keeping the same spokes since cheapest form central wheels are coming to 104 for 36 spokes and nipples. I need to make sure to take lots of pictures and videos before removing the spokes. Wheel building after that will be another challenge. Lastly the bearings don't look that bad but I might change them. I tried to find any extra play in the bearings but they are sitting in nicely. I am thinking to show it to the local bike mechanic to find out if bearings should be changed on both wheels. Investigating brake shoes is also on the list....

Wheels is what the project is going around at the moment....
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nazK
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PostPosted: 20:26 - 15 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have managed to remove all spokes using an electric screw driver on the inside of the rims an hour after spraying them with WD40 . One spoke was already bend. I don't think nipples can be re used with rounded off screw heads and rust?

Spokes can be restored and re used I guess....

https://image.ibb.co/izNmfk/20170515_200411_1.jpg
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nazK
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PostPosted: 16:49 - 17 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spokes were soaked into vinegar overnight and then sanded off with wet and dry sandpaper next day. I am happy with the result. No more rust if we don't ask a chemistry professor Smile

https://image.ibb.co/dhUObQ/spokes2.jpg

New nipples to be ordered. Some of them came out nice out of vinegar but the screw heads are not practical anymore.

I am struggling to decide if I should get rims and spokes powder coated or spray paint at home. Local guy wants 20- for both rims but he does not have sandblasting facility and wont do spokes until I have them arranged for him on some kind of stand. He said I have already prepared the rims so they don't need to be sandblasted. Also waiting on the quote from another guy who will sandblast, prime, powdercoat and put lacquer in the end. He said it will be cheaper if I go one colour on the rims, spokes and the hubs. He also asked me to to remove the bearings from the hubs.

Can anyone guide me here as I am not sure if powdercoating on corroded chrome rims is safe in the long run or should I spray. I have a small Wagner spray gun. On spry side I can put one layer to protect rust, etch prime and then overcoat with black or silver...

Knowing my rims, what should I do?
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lilredmachine
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PostPosted: 22:31 - 17 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you take careful note of how the spokes were ordered? It looks awful like you have simply clumped them all together. Having spent the best part of 2 days changing 8 spokes on a wanky CG rim that involved removing 3-4 (seized) just to get 1 back in place I can attest that this is a ball-ache.

I'd honestly be looking for a second hand rim in better nick after my experience.

PS the actual wording in the MOT handbook is that the rim has to be reduced by corrosion in structural integrity by one-third. Take from that what you will, but essentially it means you could cut some spokes out of the rim entirely and it should still pass.
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nazK
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PostPosted: 09:34 - 19 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

lilredmachine wrote:
Did you take careful note of how the spokes were ordered?

I'd honestly be looking for a second hand rim in better nick after my experience.



Thanks, Yeah I have made a good note of that. Second hand is not an option for me else I would have done that before spending so much time to de rust these rims and spokes, all solid just need to be painted now.

In the meantime had the front fender de rusted through electrolysis using car battery charger and the result was great. One half of the fender is done since my plastic container was too small.

https://image.ibb.co/cmOZkv/fender.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/g2i0Qv/rustfender.jpg

Back to the question, knowing my rims and spokes how should I get them painted. I would love to have original chrome finish but that's not cheap. And how to get hubs painted to keep that original look?
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lilredmachine
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PostPosted: 09:28 - 20 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Powdercoat chrome?

http://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-extreme-chrome-bonded-powder.html
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 12:30 - 21 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't want to get the spokes bead-blasted in much of a hurry, not if you want to be able to screw new nipples onto the threads! (would tend to either errode them rather very under size, or peen them over, either way, not the best thing for them!)

You're messing with the battery charger and staka-boxes; so why not check out the 'copy chrome' kits?

I looked at them a few years back, and kept meaning to get one for the lols... But didn't seriously have anything to chrome plate, at the time.
(a bored British summers rainy day some years ago, I actually used some old copper house wiring and a mild solution of car battery acid to get my 10 year old to coppa-plate a load of metal nick-nacks, for the 'fun'! well, stopped him moaning about the rain, at least!)

I might have to have another look at them in due-course, as I have some bits that could probably do with it for the old cota trials bike... but that's another story. Kits do look useful, and aquantences have reported good results with them.

If you are not unfamiliar with or scared by smelly solutions and hanging electricity in them; the copy-chrome kits look pretty good. It's not true chrome, its a nickel alloy, I believe; but cheaper than trying to get a specialist to re-chrome old bits... they prefer new ones, they dont have to clean and de-chrome first to avoid contaminating thier smelly stuff!

You 'might' be able to do a whole rim, if you strip the old chrome off well enough and have a bath big-enough to do it in (under-bead tuppaware, me-thinks?) But could certainly do the spokes in a jam-jar... only niggle I'd have there would be the threads, and either masking them first or running a die over after to make sure they were still to size and nipples would screw-down.

Price-wise, whether there would be enough chemicals in a starter kit, and buying extra to cover all you have, may make it a bit incing, but you'll probably go off and start copy-chroming loads of other stuff with the left over's like switch cases or horns, or engine brackets, so might not be an excessive investment.

Pro-chrome services, you will find aren't cheap; and as said, they tend to work to 'show' standards for customs or classics, and still prefer to work on 'new' rather than old. That would probably make new rim and spoke sets more 'realistic' and TBH I am surpsrised that you have priced up a set of spokes alone from Central-wheel at 120!!

Phone them, that don't sound right! They should be able to build new rims and spokes around your hubs for that sort of money! Rim shouldn't be more than 70, spokes 50 and build 40ish. For the quality/finish/piece of mind; that would probably be the way I'd go.

Cheapest you'll get the rims, on their own powder coated is probably about 20/30, and again, they are likely to not like the job, first because its not a whole wheel, so it's not easy to hang on their dip tracks; next because it still has chrome on it the plastic coating wont like to adhere to. Some might take the job, and offer warning not to expect a great finish, other's are likely to tell you that they would have to blast all the chrome off first, and start offering eff-off quotes to rival a new rim... given even just 20/30 is half way there already, and you are going to DIY build them after, that would be as sensible as anything else.... Jeez... couple of rattle cans at 10 a pop, to have something that's going to scratch, flake and start rusting through in a year, would make cost of a new rim start to seem 'sensible'. and in-for-a-penny, why short change with new rim and old-spokes? Why not do or be damned? And takes us back to the bullet-biting... A-N-D now you have pulled the spokes, so are past a point of no return....

Your call..... B-U-T.. I would either be practicing my rebuild skill on them as is for now, whilst I checked through my old address book to see if the chaps I used to get to do rims for me in days past are still trading/breathing!!! Getting a copy of Trials & Motocross news, to see who's offering wheel-building these days, and probably taking a trip up to the dales to watch some of the lads from Peak Classic wobbling around a quarry, and asking who they use these days.... trials folk don't pay over the odds for wheel building or 'fancy' chrome... not when going to get chucked around a quarry! Got t'look''part, mynd, 'tis a classic aft'rall! Non'o'this geegnick plasti-dip stuff... but wut wurx cumz first! Last one I had done, was a wider 18" alloy trials rim, laced around brand new hub, with stainless spokes, & I think I paid 170 for that, pretty much all in, the hub, accounting for most of it.

BUT, moral is to shop around a bit. Central-Wheel, are pretty good and pretty competitive though, and for what aught be pretty common 18" rims, you shouldn't be struggling too hard... but phone them, 120 just for spokes does NOT sound right!!!

Making best of what you got? If rim's are sound enough, I'd probably, just put them back together, pretty much 'as is', and just spray with clear coat as rust-preventative, and expect to re-do periodically. THAT's the skinny-budget option... everything else is money, and nudging up in the in-for-a-penny stakes.

Congrats for grasping a nettle though.....
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'
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