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Just got an untaxed vehicle notice through

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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 12:02 - 20 May 2017    Post subject: Just got an untaxed vehicle notice through Reply with quote
Interestingly, it's for a bike that hasn't been on the road for 6 or more years now.

In fact it's for the pile of parts I was prosecuted for posessing as an uninsured vehicle for a couple of years back.

I haven't actually done a SORN on it.

I reckon there would be a good argument that I actually made a detailed declaration that the vehicle was off the road directly in front of a DVLA legal representative (who wasn't listening) in the magistrates court.

I'll SORN it anyway because I don't have the mental space to be dealing with the DVLA just now but such will be my assertion if they chance their hand.

Main reason I posted though is that they must be really scraping the bottom of the barrel to have come up with this one after all this time. Funds must be scarce.
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Bloggsy
Spanner Monkey



Joined: 08 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: 12:59 - 20 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
irrespective of wether its a pile of parts or not if it has a reg number relating to it you are legally bound to sorn it
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 13:02 - 20 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bloggsy wrote:
irrespective of wether its a pile of parts or not if it has a reg number relating to it you are legally bound to sorn it


I'm not sure that you were 6 years ago though, which is Stinkwheel's argument I think.
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kramdra
World Chat Champion



Joined: 28 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 13:27 - 20 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Same. In 2014 when I bough the 250rr it came with a spare frame. Neither had been on the road for a very long time and DVLA would not allow me to pay tax online. It took a lot of effort to get the roadworthy bike taxed. I gave up after several attempts at sorn'ing the spare.

This now implies they have fixed their IT system, it will now cope with long-term unused vehicles. I was successfully able to sorn yesterday.

There was a hint they will try to get monies for unsorned years.
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Mr Hammers
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Joined: 10 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 20 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Does the 'prove i didn't send it' defence still work, when it comes to sorns?
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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 13:50 - 20 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mr Hammers wrote:
Does the 'prove i didn't send it' defence still work, when it comes to sorns?

Interpretations Act 1972. I believe not. After notable successes by sickpup et al, DVLA kept hammering away at it until they got a win on appeal with a very grumpy (Big Boy Court) judge who clearly considered his time was being wasted by a mere litigant in person daring to suggest that the law actually means what it says.

Buggered if I can find the reference, but I wouldn't rely on it any more.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 16:03 - 20 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bloggsy wrote:
irrespective of wether its a pile of parts or not if it has a reg number relating to it you are legally bound to sorn it


There is an (untried) legal argument I could give related to the statutary definition of "motor vehicle" in the road traffic act. which is VERY specific.

However, it also occurrs to me that the offence to which this letter referrs is very old.

Raises an interesting question, When did the offence occurr? Does the offence of posessing an untaxed vehicle continuously roll over or is it a single offence comitted on the day one failed to tax it?

They were aware I posessed this pile of scrap and hadn't taxed it 5-ish years ago (in a way I can prove beyond doubt, I have the signed court papers attesting to such) so can they actually lay a complaint for it now or is the offence time expired (magistrates court act 1980, section 127)?

EDIT: Given the post above suggesting they may be looking for back-tax. Rather than SORNing online, I may respond with a letter referring them to the verbal statement I made in front of their legal representative in open court in which I stated emphatically and categorically that the vehicle was not being used on the road. Also that I consider in doing so I satisfied any legal requirements for me to make declarations to the ministers representative.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 16:45 - 20 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
And so:

Quote:
Dear Sir,

In reference to your letter dated 10/5/17, reference: UV1. Vehicle registration number ******

Please be aware that on the **** June 2013 I appeared before the South Lakeland (Cumbria) Magistrates Court to answer charges brought by The DVLA in reference to the insurance status of this vehicle.

I was found guilty of being the registered keeper of a vehicle which did not meet insurance requirements contrary to Section 144a(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

Those proceedings were carried out in open court in front of a bench of three magistrates and a DVLA legal representative who was prosecuting the case.

During those proceedings, I read out a pre-prepared statement which stated categorically that the vehicle in question was not being used and was not capable of being used on the road.

To directly quote my statement verbatim:

“I would like to make it totally clear that at no time has the motorcycle in question been kept, used or indeed been capable of being used on the road since July 2012”.

This may not have been noted at the time as your legal representative appeared to spend the entirety of the proceedings chewing gum with her mouth open and fiddling with her tablet PC rather than listening to the the person she was supposed to be prosecuting.

I consider the above statement, made to court, before your legal representative -who ought to have been listening even if she was not- to have fulfilled the requirement to make a declaration to a representative of the Secretary of State in accordance with The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002, Schedule 4, Part I, section 2, paragraph 1.

I consider this matter to be closed.

____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 18:43 - 20 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
For what would they prosecute you?

Not for using a vehicle without VED, they have no evidence of that.

And there's no offence of keeping a vehicle without VED either.

Seem to me that they'd have to prosecute you for keeping a vehicle that doesn't meet the continuous insurance requirements.

Which they've already done (dun dun DUNNNNN) for that vehicle. Double jeopardy?
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 18:55 - 20 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

And there's no offence of keeping a vehicle without VED either.


I thought there was?

There used to be.

Although again, the last time this bike was taxed was 5 years ago and I got threat-o-grams then which I duly binned. Nothing has changed other than me robbing more parts off it.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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Mr Hammers
World Chat Champion



Joined: 10 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: 00:00 - 21 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
.... but I wouldn't rely on it any more.

Shame, it's been a lot of fun mocking the collection agencies who thought they had an easy mark.
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2 litre
Nova Slayer



Joined: 31 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: 00:44 - 21 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ive seen quite a few of these posts today in Facebook groups, wonder if there's been a mistake ?
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 07:43 - 21 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
(Source)
DVLA wrote:
As part of the in-sourcing of our IT function, we have transferred technical staff with the necessary skills from the private sector into the civil service.

Conceivably they recruited someone who asked "Why come we don't farm these millions of historical cases for fun and profit?"

Probably more significantly:
DVLA wrote:
Increase the number of cases going through the Single Justice[sic] Process[sic] (SJP) against the 2016-17 outturn, by being an early adopter of changing processes for Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunal Service (HMCTS)

The Single Justice Procedure is justice-lite. A single magistrate deciding the case on the papers without either party attending.

It's a wet dream for DVLA Collections. They can just churn out form-letter prosecutions without the cost of showing up. They don't really give a damn whether they win or lose, they just want a cheap way to blackmail people into paying the bribe to avoid a conviction.

There's no down side for them. In fact, whether any offence has even been committed at all is going to become increasingly irrelevant, once they get a taste for robo-prosecutions.

I strongly suspect this is going to turn into PoFA 2.0 and rather than saving the court system resources is going to result in a torrent of paper prosecutions.

Aside: Corporate report? Business plan? They're LARPing the private sector.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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ScaredyCat
World Chat Champion



Joined: 19 May 2012
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PostPosted: 10:24 - 21 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Single Justice procedure wont work for offences older than 6 months...

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/2/schedule/11/paragraph/7#schedule-11-paragraph-7-3-b - both written charge and single justice procedure notice need to be issued and

"an authorised prosecutor must issue a written charge not more than 6 months after the offence alleged."

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/2015/crim-proc-rules-2015-part-07.pdf Section 7.2 (5)(b)
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P.
Red Rocket



Joined: 14 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: 13:06 - 21 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I received 2 before I left for holiday. One for a bike that was sold then scrapped, another that was stolen and give to insurers.

I'll do nothing with either. They've been notified many times.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 14:06 - 21 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:

This is where people are going wrong. If it's still currently not SORN'ed, it's currently breaking the rules right here, right now, no matter how many years it's sat in a shed.


Well, in your oppinion it does. I can find nowhere it's been defined. One could equally argue the actual offence was comitted on the date the keeper failed to tax/insure. I'm not sure if it's actually come up and would need to be tested in court.

They use the term "Index offence" in the document Roger linked to. Be interesting to have a definition of that.

In my initial prosecution, they used the date on their first request for an out of court settlement as their "start" date on the witness statement and had me up in front of the beak (just) within six months of that date suggesting they were at least tacitly aware a time limit could apply.

There has to be a limit. When does the offence occur? It has to really be a single offence, they can't prosecute me for every day I didn't have a SORN prior to my conviction as a seperate offence.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 14:59 - 21 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
They even admitted an error on their system mean't I never got sent a reminder. The fine still stood though.


So they took you to court then? Because if they didn't, you didn't pay a fine, what you actually did was send money to Capita plc. because they sent a letter asking you to.

Only a court can impose a fine, no matter what other agencies might imply in carefully worded letters.

Quote:
Best of luck, but I suspect you'll have to pay it.


Pay what? They sent me a letter informing me I have an untaxed vehicle and have stated this can render me liable to prosecution.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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ScaredyCat
World Chat Champion



Joined: 19 May 2012
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 21 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
ScaredyCat wrote:
Single Justice procedure wont work for offences older than 6 months...


This is where people are going wrong. If it's still currently not SORN'ed, it's currently breaking the rules right here, right now, no matter how many years it's sat in a shed.


This is where you show your lack of understanding and then haul out your straw man.
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dydey90
World Chat Champion



Joined: 01 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 21 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I got one too! For a car that my Mrs had written off in 2013.

I doubt they'll start prodding the buttocks of those who reply, they'd have to stop doing everything else for the rest of the year.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 19:35 - 21 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmm, it does look like their new in-house IT may be up to the standards that you'd expect for a government system.

Probably worth firing in with: https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/driver-and-vehicle-licensing-agency/about/complaints-procedure
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 11:34 - 24 May 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

I also had a threatening letter through from them. For a bike I bought a couple of years ago and which I have never had on the road.

I have a confirmation email from 31st August 2013 to say that I had declared it SORN. It does claim to only be for 12 months, but the rules changed in December 2013 so that SORN did not need to be redeclared.

Question is, is this just normal incompetence on their part or are they trying something on.

Maybe I should complain to the data protection registrar.

All the best

Katy
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 6 years, 331 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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