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| chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip
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 Posted: 23:46 - 24 Jun 2017  Post subject: |
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| Alpineandy wrote: |
As I've said earlier, I'd certainly see ABS as a positive in road riding for me, but it isn't the perfect cure... |
The thing is, I've managed without it all my riding career, so I've had nothing telling me I need it. I'm the dinosaur who still rides a carburetted litre bike with no rider aids, but I'm happy - it's how I roll! 
The blue spot callipers on my Fazer thou have all the stopping power I need, combined with good feel. I've only ever locked the back up once (on my previous one), and that was down to having HH pads in there, which I never usually have for the rear brake - that thing is fierce enough with standards. So even though ABS might have saved the day there, it would only have been compensating for something else that was 'wrong' with the bike.
What I don't need, is twats like that fella up there ^ telling me I must have it for my own good. Grrr, it makes me seethe! 
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Polarbear
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Posted: 00:12 - 25 Jun 2017  Post subject: |
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WARNING - Tef like post
It's not just the safety aspect of ABS, traction control, linked brakes and cruise control (all of which are fitted to my bike  ) it's the financial aspect.
Bikes from the last century (the 1990's, not the 1890's ) had little electronic shit and what there was was pretty simple. Maybe an LCD display and electronic ignition and as such are still going strong today in many cases.
But, nowadays, using my bike as an example of ridiculousness -
The brakes, obviously ABS on both wheels (non switchable), independent operation but linked via their own computer so integrating the traction control (switchable), linked brakes and cruise control. 
Linked brakes where the rear brake pedal operates the rear brake and the bottom two pistons on the right caliper of the right hand front disc via a system that 'balances' the braking between the front and rear. I posted the spagetti junction picture of that monstrosity in another thread.
OK, a lot of that isn't compulsory but tech crap copying BMW etc for boosting the spec list in the brochure. However there is no simple choice of just the compulsory ABS, without TRC and no linked brakes option.
So the financial aspect - The brain for the ABS/TRC is £ 1,171.17p, the front wheel sensor is £100.81 and the rear sensor is £112.53.
That is just the stuff for the ABS, not including the fucking ships computer, sorry bikes computer that links all the electronics together
I really like my bike, but once the electronics start failing it's going to be the end of it unless the owner has incredibly deep pockets.
That's my bike but I guess all the bikes from any of the mainstream manufacturers are going to be along those lines and as they have to include ABS they are going to throw a load of other electronic shit in with it just to make the teccy types happy.
So the modern bike won't outlive the 80's and 90's bikes because no back street or home mechanic can work on them either because of complexity, anti tamper or cost.
Oh for a set of points and a fag paper 
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 00:27 - 25 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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| Polarbear wrote: |
Oh for a set of points and a fag paper |
I can help with the fag paper, but points? Even I'm not that much of a dinosaur 
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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Posted: 08:31 - 25 Jun 2017  Post subject: |
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| Polarbear wrote: | I really like my bike, but once the electronics start failing it's going to be the end of it unless the owner has incredibly deep pockets. |
This is my objection to the bollocks as well. It's just more stuff to go wrong and render bikes uneconomical to keep running, and manufacturers know that.
Where it's beneficial to riders like ABS[*] I can sort of grit my teeth.
Mandatory OBD ports might benefit us, except they didn't mandate a standard so they'll be hee-haw use except to dealers.
It's the anti-tamper and Nanny Chips that really shovel centipedes in my mangina. Those are entirely owner-hostile, and are pure costs just so that some grey suited Eurocrat can "feel" good zat everyvun ist obeying der rules.
Given that nobody involved in actual motorcycling wants that garbage fitted, including manufacturers, they'll be the cheapest Ching-Chong branded components they can source.
Once Nanny Chip 2 kicks in, we'll have bikes that have to monitor their whole drivetrain and cripple themselves if they think that anything is out of spec. Fun times, fun times.
Oh, one positive from the Eurobollocks is that: "Manufacturers shall provide unrestricted access to vehicle repair and maintenance information to independent operators through websites using a standardised format in a readily accessible and prompt manner. In particular, this access shall be granted in a manner which is non-discriminatory compared to the provision given or access granted to authorised dealers and repairers"
That's the theory. Now, I will award one Internets to anyone who can find any manufacturer that is complying with that diktat and providing full technical information for their bikes to anyone other than their own dealer chain.
[*] It goes without saying that everyone here is a riding god and always plans properly and has spooky brain powers that magically predict and control the actions of other road users.
Non-BCFers might not enjoy that telepathic advantage though, and so could benefit from ABS when Mavis Micra pulls out on them in the wet despite them doing everything right.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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| Posted: 08:34 - 25 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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I'd say a fairly sizeable portion of people with the bigger bikes are just decating/flashing the crap out of these bikes anyway.
I'm sure (or I hope) they'll always be ways around the anti-tamper. The new GSXR has a module you can buy that you plug in to disable the ABS, but keep the traction control. Long may it continue.
I'm not anti Euro 4 per say, I would rather people had the choice rather than have it forced upon them.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 11:20 - 25 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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| Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote: | I'd say a fairly sizeable portion of people with the bigger bikes are just decating/flashing the crap out of these bikes anyway.
I'm sure (or I hope) they'll always be ways around the anti-tamper. The new GSXR has a module you can buy that you plug in to disable the ABS, but keep the traction control. Long may it continue.
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The motorcycle version of EW. I'm just thankful I got to see biking before all this crap.
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chickenstrip
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Posted: 11:33 - 25 Jun 2017  Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: |
[*] It goes without saying that everyone here is a riding god and always plans properly and has spooky brain powers that magically predict and control the actions of other road users.
Non-BCFers might not enjoy that telepathic advantage though, and so could benefit from ABS when Mavis Micra pulls out on them in the wet despite them doing everything right. |
I don't think you get it. I don't claim to be a riding god - I've had my fair share of spills, and heaven knows some were my own stupid fault. But who is anyone to presume that they have my best interests at heart (when clearly, as you yourself have pointed out, it's only their own pockets and control-freak tendencies they're really interested in boosting), and surround me in cotton wool without even asking me if I want it?
This world has certainly changed through my years in it, but I'll never accept that change is always a good thing. Where will we be in another 20 or 30 years time? Machines making all our decisions for us? Cars that drive themselves (undoubtedly bikes will be gone from the scene entirely by then)? Who actually wants this stuff, aside from making money from it?
If you have decent brakes, decent suspension, a reasonable level of power etc, a bike doesn't need all these rider aids - just a little skill on the part of the rider, and what's so wrong with requiring that? I'd have thought it was a good thing if you know how to handle your bike properly?
When I started out on two wheels, I didn't care that bikes weren't comparatively safe. I still don't. Nobody says you have to ride them. I can almost understand non-bikers wanting to strangle them, but when you start to hear it from people who ride, well, I despair.
/rant 
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 11:39 - 25 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | I don't think you get it. |
You're refuting a point that I didn't make.
I don't think you get it. |
Oh well, I needed the rant anyway
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linuxyeti
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| Posted: 11:47 - 25 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: |
The thing is, I've managed without it all my riding career, ................ |
The thing is, the younger generation, those who are in their teens & youngers are so used to being wrapped in cotton wool, it's now almost to dangerous to let them loose with abs etc ..
And, it's not just bikes, it's across most, if not all, aspects of life ..
For example, my daughter has recently been learning about lungs in biology, now, when I did the equivalent, we were split into pairs, given a sheeps lung, which we'd wrap paper towel round the trachea, and blow down down ti to demonstrate, nothing like that for my daughter, they're kept well away from the real things ..
Then there's the, you can't leave your kids to play outside, it's too dangerous ...
Basically anything the HSE can get it's hands on to justify it's existence.
Don't get me wrong some of the advances, and even, some of the hse are worthwhile, but some are just ott and borderline ludicrous, but, this stems from 'society' as a whole becoming as risk averse as possible !!
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Polarbear
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| Posted: 12:08 - 25 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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Agree with above.
There was nothing that was as much manly fun as causing the girls to barf when you popped the sheep's eyeball in the biology class. (this was before I really knew what schoolgirls were for  ).
I am a total dinosaur, hate HSE with a passion and can't stand the nanny state. I think being a biker nowadays is one of the few remaining legal things you can do to shove a finger up at big brother and his people control.
FWIW I think chickenstrip is partially wrong that bikes will be gone, but they will be so strangled that they won't be fun as we see it now. Commuter scooters or bikes like that BMW concept shit with the bird on, the one that can't fall over will be the order of the day.
People riding old big bikes will be ostricised like bikers were in the 80's. No Irishmen, no tinkers, no crash helmets.
George Orwell just got the date wrong.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 12:22 - 25 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: |
why would I have bought an Enfield? |
That, I will never understand
| Quote: | But ABS does increase the safety of most riders when things have gone wrong. |
But then you have things like this (which probably also doesn't address your point, but it seems I didn't quite get all the rant off my chest ):
| Enduro Numpty wrote: | In 40 years of riding I can't remember ever falling off (on the road) because ABS hadn't been invented. I've not long since got rid of a T120 Triumph fitted with ABS. The suspension was pathetic which meant hard braking on anything other than a perfectly smooth surface had the wheel skipping/locking and subsequent activation of ABS. The ABS did what it's supposed to do but the point is the suspension couldn't cope and the result being the tyre wasn't in contact with the road when it should have been and braking distance was, in my view excessive. I would much rather see whoever makes the "rules" focusing on enforcing basic functionality rather than have us all relying on supposed electronic fixes. |
It's not the first time I've heard complaints like this. I'd rather see the fundamentals addressed first - all bikes with top quality suspension, brakes etc - then look at how you might make them safer still. If I could be sure that ABS would only kick in when I actually need it too, and not affect any other aspect of the riding experience, I'd be more inclined to accept, even want it. I mean, what is the point of rider "safety" aids when manufacturers are allowed to cut corners with budget suspension? And if you're going to make a safety aid compulsory, surely it has to work properly - no compromise, no glitches like the above - first. Otoh, I'm one of those idiots who actually enjoys taking a bike to it's my limits without anything else interfering, and yes, I want the choice to say no to it.
| Rogerborg wrote: | Care to address the point that I actually made? |
The cost aspect and the throw-away society? Yes, gears well and truly ground, and not just with bikes. Having it thrust upon me as compulsory? Likewise.
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| Posted: 13:08 - 25 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | | Rogerborg wrote: | why would I have bought an Enfield? |
That, I will never understand |
Binned it in the wet due to lack of ABS as well.
I still wouldn't mandate it, but I'd personally prefer it. And it does occur that there is no way that RE would ever even have contemplated fitting ABS if it hadn't been mandated.
But I still don't want it mandated.
| chickenstrip wrote: | I'd rather see the fundamentals addressed first - all bikes with top quality suspension, brakes etc |
Er, yes, brakes.
"No more shit suspension" is a bit harder to write into law though.
How would you propose that working in practice? Öhlins or GTFO?
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 13:42 - 25 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: |
Binned it in the wet due to lack of ABS as well. |
I would never take away your right to bin it due to lack of ABS
In reality, you binned it because you did something wrong, surely? In the same way I binned my last Fazer because I hadn't accounted for the harsher bite the HH pads gave the rear brake, and so overdid it? You perhaps hadn't taken into account some other factor, maybe some limitation of the Enfield?
| Quote: | I'd personally prefer it. |
IF it doesn't interfere with the riding experience in any other way, and works perfectly, maybe. But I still don't actually feel a need for it. No, sod that, I don't want it. I'd rather learn not to lock the brakes in the first place, and if I get it wrong, well then, I'll accept the consequences. Perhaps there need to be consequences if we're going to insist on doing something as dangerous as riding these infernal machines in the first place.
You say that (and quite possibly I'm misinterpreting your inference, if you mean one ), but that doesn't include trying to improve them with ABS. I am lucky enough to have brakes on my current bike where the feel is excellent - you can actually tell when you're on the threshold of locking them. There are plenty of bikes out there where not only is braking performance poor generally, but the brakes don't have that kind of feel either (as you know from riding an Enfield ).
| Quote: | "No more shit suspension" is a bit harder to write into law though.
How would you propose that working in practice? Öhlins or GTFO? |
Very tempted to say "yes" (except that Ohlins also make budget suspension). Why not, if it improves not only safety, but the overall riding experience too? If we must have extra cost thrust upon us, rather that imo. At the very least, I'd look at insisting on things like cartridge type front forks on all bikes, for example - before going down the ABS route anyway - but I too defend your right to ride shit bikes if that's what you want to do.
Which kind of begs the question - if ABS and such are to become compulsory because they make things safer for us, what of people who want to ride classic bikes? Should they be banned?
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| Posted: 15:30 - 25 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | You perhaps hadn't taken into account some other factor, maybe some limitation of the Enfield? |
No, I'm a riding god, it was entirely outwith my control.
Sure, I made a bad call on a set of lights and overbraked in the wet.
Ironically, a contributing factor may have been that I'd just overhauled the front brake and fitted a braided line, so it was operating better than usual.
| chickenstrip wrote: | Very tempted to say "yes" (except that Ohlins also make budget suspension). Why not, if it improves not only safety, but the overall riding experience too? |
Scratch a liberal the right way and you'll find an anti-choice dictatorial fascist busting to get out.
| chickenstrip wrote: | what of people who want to ride classic bikes? Should they be banned? |
Gassed. It's the only way to stop them hurting themselves.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 15:54 - 25 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: |
Scratch a liberal the right way and you'll find an anti-choice dictatorial fascist busting to get out.
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Whoa there! 
That's politics, isn't it? Count me out!
No, I don't actually want to enforce anything on anyone, as long as I'm left alone to do what I want to do.
You set me up for that, didn't you, you crafty sod - bloody political animals, you're all the same!
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Enduro Numpty
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| Posted: 20:35 - 26 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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With regard to ABS and specifically what's fitted to my FJR. The bike is now 8 years old and by all intents and purposes the ABS will be really out of date. That said, it is one of the few bikes I've ever ridden that I believe benefits from ABS. I regularly practice very hard braking and it really does take some seriously hard stopping to activate the ABS in the dry. I know if it cuts in I'm pushing my luck.
The previously mentioned Triumph was just pathetic and has been replaced with a Suzuki V-Strom and while the brakes and suspension are brilliant the ABS still cuts in a little too early for my liking.
ABS is good for warning and possibly avoiding a front end washout if panic braking but it's my experience (and I have tried many times) that keeping the brake pulled hard enough to keep the ABS pulsing vastly increases braking distances. If you're heading for something solid then it's no consolation that your ABS is working and not stopping you quickly enough.
I've read about it being banned from racing in this thread because it stops crashes - UTTER BOLLOCKS. It isn't used in racing because it massively increases braking distances.
Maybe some day the modulations or pulses will be better controlled and just pulling the lever as hard as we can will be the most efficient way of stopping quickly. I think even the most up to date systems are a long way from this. Till that day comes, I'll just keep practicing the same old shit that's kept me alive and given me great fun for the last 40 years .
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| Posted: 10:35 - 27 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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How much longer do you feel that your stopping distances are while the ABS is saving you from a front end lock-up? I'm trying to get a handle on "vast".
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