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XT65
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Teflon-Mike
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 Posted: 17:48 - 23 Jun 2017  Post subject: |
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Photo's are out of focus.... but what you need is a wiring dagram.
A two-pole flasher is switching the supply to the blinkers on and off, before the indy-switch points the electric to the bulbs on one or other side.... the indy 'warning' lamp on the dash, is then often a cleaver bit of electrickery tha's conneected between both left and rght indy circuits, so that it takes its current fro the side that's 'on' and earths through the side that's 'off' regardles which way the idy swith poits.
Problem here is that it relies on the resistance of the Indy bulbs being higher than that of the tell-tale lamp, so that the volts on the earth side of the tell-tale aren't enough to make the 'off' side indies light up... fit LED's and you can end up with the tell-tale cross over leaving enough volts on the 'off' side indy LED's to still light them, and you have a two position hazard warning switch, rather than an indactor! In which case you have to remove the tell-tale to make the indes work, or re-wire and probably use diodes to get the tell-tale to work with them.
Three pole indy-relays, usually have one out-put that provides a feed to the indy switch, which makes the indies flash which ever side is turned on, whilst the extra pole provides supply to the tell-tale. Conventionally, on a three-pole electro-mech indy flasher; the switch would flip flop between the two out-put pins, so that the tell-tale bulb would flash alternately, and be 'on' when the indicator was 'off' and vica-versa.
This is probably what yours is, but wiring diagram would confirm.
Flasher units for LED's are either traditional electro-mech devices, that oscilate at a rate dependant on the bulb-load put on them; so will flas faster with a lower wattage bulb, or LED, 'timed' for the lower load of an LED, or that have a balast resistor to put the flasher under the same load.. Or they are electronic flashers that use a chrystal like a digital watch to time the flash period, which can keep the flash rate constant for almost any bulb wattage, and even allow you to mic LEDs and tungsten bulbs... but most often they are only two-pole devices... as it seems you are finding.
I would suspect that if you fitted e of the two-pole flashers off e-bay, your ides will work, but the tell-tale wont... that would beg some creatve wring to tap into the individual indy feds to make it work again, if you wanted t to, BUT... its an XR125 trail-style bike... can you see the front indicators from the riding position? If so, then you dont need a tell-take for MOT, and could live without it.
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| Posted: 22:51 - 23 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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https://www.cmelectronica.com.ar/wiring-diagram/imagenes/honda-xl125v_color.jpg
That's a wiring diagam for 'an' XR125; it shows a single two-pin flasher unit. (Or tur-sigal-relay' as it's marked).
What you put in link is a pats schematic.. without the accompanyiing parts list... so rather hard to follow what boxes are what; but still.
If that wiring diagram, is correct for your bike, then any of the 2-pin electronic 5+Amp electronc flasher units of e-bay for under a fiver, would likely do the job, though you'd likely have to chop the connector block of the ies wiring loom and terminate with bullet connectors to suit the flasher unit you get.
Also looks like it has seperate left/right dash warning lamps, wired in parallel with the left/right indies, so no issues on that one either.
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Posted: 00:38 - 24 Jun 2017  Post subject: |
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| XT65 wrote: | I'm confused by the relay business to be honest...2 of them ?? |
Yeah, OK.. lets start at the top; what are you actually trying to do; are you fitting LED bulbs into your existing indicators, or are you replacig the original indicators for LED 'units'?
Either way, why do you believe you need to change the flasher unit?
Obviously, when you say you're confused; and dont really 'get' electrics, your expectation is very 'plug and play', which begs either you ned to get a bit more clued up on basic electrickery before trying to mod stuff from the way the factory made it; or just KISS it, "Keep It Standard Silly"
To offer some insight; LED's are Light Emitting Diodes; they are a special form of silicon chip for want of better description, a sliver of semi-conducting material, that has two properties; first it only lets volts pass through it in one direction, second, when electric does pass through it, it emits light. Unlike a conventional light-bulb, thats a bit of wire, in a glass bulb full usually of inert gas to stop the metal oxidising when it gets hot; whch it does when electic is passed through it; and if enough electrc is passd through it, it gets hot enough t glow, and if an awful lot of electric goes through it, it can glow 'white' and chuck out some light, as well as heat... as an asside, an electric light bulb is actually more efficient as a heatig element than it is a light source... which is one of the advatahes of LED's; they don't need either a lot of volts or a lot of power to start chucking out nothing but 'light', without getting particularly hot in the process; which is why they are mainly used for electrical efficiecy.
We replaced just abut every conventional light-bulb on Snowie's 'Pup' project, from the telltale lamps on teh dash panel, through to the tail lamp and insides, even the side-light bulb, basically everything but the actual head-lamp bulb, which was swapped for a similarly high efficiency HID, in order to minimse the 'power' drawn by the equipment on the bike, so that she could have a few 'gadgets'.. like a Sat-Nav and heated grips, and a mobile-phone charger, without all that sappng the power from the generator so the battery kept going flat.
Typical current draw of an indicator bulb is something in the order of 15Watts; a LED bulb has a rating of maybe 1/4 Watts..
So if you have a generator that only delivers maybe 60 or 70 watts, 'max', and a lot less at idle revs; then the headlamp draws maybe 35W, side-light probably 15W, the tail lamp 15w, the stop lamp 21w, and the warning lamps proably 5 or 8 watts each, another 30W of indicators is quite a hefty added load, when stopped at a set of traffic lights, in with the lamps on, and the brake pressed, those lights alone, are likely sucking more electrical power than the generator makes, even if the engine was screaming to make as much as the generator might, and it's only the battery making up the difference, for as long as the rest of the time, the generator is making more electric than is being used, and can put a bit asside the battery... that isn't robbed by the enormous draw of the starter motor when you start the engine...
LED's then do offer a good way to save some electricity, that can as in Snowie's case be used towards running some other electrical accessories, with less risk that usig them will see you come to start the bike, and get a dead-mans click from the starter solenoid, as you have been usig more than the engine was making, and the battery has goes flat and don't have enough for another start left in it.
Alternatively, LED indcator uits, that replace the whole indcator stem ad bulb, are a common after-market accessory, usually fitted because they are cheaper than OE items to repair a bike that's bee dropped, or because some folk just think they look cool.... Back to top, whats your reason?
LED indy units; oft are't that wonderful; to make them as cheap as they do, they often are made on a flat PCB molded into the lens unit; and LED's have a peculiarity i that the light the emit is very 'directional', so they are very bright if you are stood directly behind the bike, but they can be almost invisible f you are looking at the bike side on.. which don't help many SMIDSY's where they knock you off without even looking; givig them the excuse they thought you must be going straight o, cos you weren's showing (them) a turn signal, limits your survival chances even more from the few who DO bother to look!.. And it tends to be even worse if the after market accessory LED's are diddy little 'mini- indicators, worse still on very short stems, hardly pokig out from the bike!!! May as well not bother! Not actually required on a motorcycle adapted for off-road use; ay as well leave the things off, and tape up the swicth; and use arm signals! Stand a better hance SMIDY will stay the eff where they are, TBH wonderig what the hell you are waving your arm about for, 'cos they never really read the High-way code.. but still! You have been warned; small indies on short stems may look cool in the car-park; but nothng looks cool whe Modeo man has run over it, yelling 'Sorry Mate I didn't See you! Use your bludy indicators, its YOUR fault!!! Got that? NOT cool.. daft.. may as well not bother with them, not absolutely demanded by C&U regs or MOT, so why bother; If you bother, any as well make the damn things effective, and give yourself some chance any-one will take some notice of the ruddy things.
SO, moving on, now that's out the way.. flasher units.. as said there are two types; one is an electo-mechanical gadget; its like an ordinary on off switch you ress with your finger; bit of metal gets pressed between two contacts to 'make' a circuit, and a spring pulls it back off contacts to turn the circuit 'off' again... Now t make that 'automatc' so that when you turn 'on' the indicators the flasher turns on and off, there's a little electro-magnet that moves the contact in the flasher; BUT, when it has thrown the contacts to 'make' the circuit and turn the bulbs 'on' it short circuits itself so that spring can pull the contact back, and turn them off again...then it realises it isn't short circuited any more, and throws the contact back, to turn the bulb back 'on' and the cycle repeats.. clever hugh?
Oh-Kay; C&U regs & MOT test guide says that the indicators should flash between 60 & 120 times a minute, once or twice a second....
Electro-mechanical relays then, have what is known as a 'balanced circuit' or a 'tued' circuit. Basically how fast the electro magnet 'flip-flops' between on and off, depends on the volts it gets given, and the electrical 'load' put on it by the bulbs its lighting up. If a bulb 'blows' t will halve the electrical load on the flasher, ad they usually flash almost double time, as a result....
Which is easy way to check if you have an electro-mech type flasher' pull the lens off oe indy, switch that side's indicators 'on' and wath them flash, then take the bulb out... if the other indy starts to flash fast.. you have an electro-mech flasher unit.... if ot you likely have a solid state, electronic, chrystal timed one.
These are the more modern type; basically they have a transistor ircuit in them, and a chrystal like a dgital watch; when a voltage is applied to the chrystal, it naturally gives a flip-flop out-put, turning on and off at a certain frequency; this 'signal' is then put through a transistor, that does the job of turning the light bulb on or off, dependng whether ts gettig volts from the chrystal or not. NOW these electronics are ot load depedant; so you can put any wattage bulbs on them, and they will flash at the fixed rate the flasher electroncs are tuned to, and if you have more than one bulb, and one blows the flash rate doesn't change.
SO.. electronic flashers are great for LED indicators, that have a very very low wattage; because not the flash rate, not depedant on the bulb wattate, flasher will flash them at the rate ts set to regardless; you can have an ED in the front indy and a tugsten bulb in the back, or mix and match to your hearts content; flash rate will remain in that 1 or 2 times a second range they are set to.
An electro-Mechanical flasher on the other hand, will tend t flash fast, as if a bulb had blown, if you have LEDs in one or two of all indy lamps, drawing that much lower wattage... they will do likewise if you fit the wrong wattage bulbs too, and not unknown for flk to have indies that flash fast one side and slow the other, because they should have say 15W bulbs, but have fitted one 12W in an indy one side when t went, and maybe 1n 18w bulb n another on the other side, when that blew.... but that's an example.
Electro-mechanical flasher units, were by far the more common factory fit right up until perhaps ten years ago, as they were cheaper than electronic ones, and usually could carry more current more reliably. So older bikes, older odels of bike, ad smaller lower cost machines of even quite recet vntage MAY still have electro-mech flashers... so you need check.
As said, lift an indy lens ad see f flash rate changes when you take a bulb out..
IF you have a constant rate, electronic flasher already, you quite possbly need not worry ONE JOT about swappng it unless its toasted... should't matter whether you have LED's in the indicators or tungsten bulbs or what.. flash rate shuld be uneffected, and indes should work as they are supposed to. Its oly a 'issue' if you have an electro-magnetic flasher, that is load dependet.
NOW, two options; when LED indies started to become popular, they were often sold with 'balast resistors'; basically a dummy load that drew the extra watts of a tungsten bulb, the LED didn't, that had to be coupled in in series with the indy... rather defeated any potential power savng from the LED, as what it didn't draw, the balast resistor did, and simply turned into heat.
As a cheap fix, this is still viable, and pretty easy to do, but again, if you are tryig to save watts for other equiment rather defeats the point; is cheap ad easy though.
Alternatvely, the flashr has to be changed, and many have offered flashers for LED's, that are simply electro-mechanical flashers 'retuned' to give the necessary flash interval with a lower bulb load... whih ca work, provided they are tuned to the load you have, and you dot say have a LED on the font ad a tungsten still i the back, or something..
Chrystal timed 'electronic' flashr units, as said, are the better alternatve, and thse days can cost as litte as £2-3 from China (I think I bought half a dozen last time, so I had a few spars knocking about!), and provided they have the current rating, can be fit ad forget solution tat would let you mix ad match tungsten and LED bubs of different ratings, and still keep the flash-rate constant.
BUT... you are stepping away from 'standard'.. odds are that Honda make the wiring harness with a dedicated plug on the ed to fit the flasher unit they choose to use... if that's NOT what YOU want to use, or NEED to use, the chances that some-one will make a plug-ad-play direct swap alternatve flasher that will simply fit the same plug as Honda fitted to your bike, isn't great; they aren't making them to sell to honda in the volume Honda buy for the productio line, they are making them to sell to folk like you, after market, which s a much smaller market; so they are likely to offer a 'standard' flasher uit of the right ratig, and leave it up to you, to cut the Honda harness ad ft connectors to graft it into the crcuit... you AY be lucky ad get something 'plug and play', as Honda do use a lot f stadard components, and teh Chnese have copied a lot; so good chae that ome-one makes a CG or CG derivative in a Chnese factory and has for cost cutting got some-one to make them electronc flashers that fit
the stadard Honda wirg plug they use... BUT no garantee...
You are working off the books here; modifyng your motorcycle from the spec that ts creators laid down for its deign; you cant expect suppliers to have solved any ad all the prblems you might ecounter departing from Honda stadard, and offer you an 'off-the shlf' ready made, no hassle, plug and play solution, you DO need to get a bit clued up what you are doing, and be prepared to do some trial ad error, and maybe chop wires and solder on different conectors to make stuff fit and work.
| XT65 wrote: | Can I ask is it just a screen shot you used or exported as a pdf ?
I was thinking how to do it without it looking too small to read if you see what I mean,like yours ?. |
I typed "Honda XR125 Wiring Diagram" into google; clicked 'images' ad looked at what it gave me; fooud one that looked half decent, used right click ad option 'Copy Image URL', then pasted it into message box ad use the 'IMG' otto to put {img} tags around it to get it to display on post.
Also 'nicked' it using same right click ad 'copy mage', then opened 'pant' and used 'past' to get a copy of it I could zoom to and move around a bit!
| XT65 wrote: | Sorry for sh''@ photo but you get the, idea ie the relay front is 3 pins [all 3 pins are wired]
Thanks for your time putting this together but it's a bit confusing to understand what you are writing...
I'm confused by the relay business to be honest...2 of them ??
Blokes just sent me this: 'the suspension relay is just the rubber that mounts it'...........Oh dear,I need me head examined....hhhh  !! |
That explains it; and why you should look at the wirig diagram, not an assembly schematic.
Curious the wiring diag shows a simple two-pole flasher, and the one you have has three pins...
Is there actually three wires i the plug on the bikes loom? Does one 'dead ed' and is unused? If so, could explain why after-market ones only have two pins n the actuall flasher. They just dead end t there rather than in the loom. Also worth checking to see if 'spare' pin is amply an earth that's redundant the after-market flasher...
But, back to top; DO you actually NEED a new flasher unit? And f you do, are you sure you are getting one that will do the job you want? Ie actual electronic flasher for LED's not a re-timed electro-mechanical one.
Do the bulb-out test; check you actually need it; and as said, think hard whether the LED indies you want to fit actually ARE such a great idea.. as said, not required on an off-road motorcycle for MOTl remove all and put a strip of black tape over the indy switch, IF you are just trying to get it through test.
If you want indies to work, and be useful, make sure the are not just bright from behind, but stick out far enough and are bright enough from the side too, that them that do bother to look WILL see'em, or pointless having them, no matter how cool you think they may look.
Actually watched a acquaintance go 'down' in front of me, on a mini roundabout dodging a SMIDSY who just opened his window and yelled "Use your trucking indicators ext time", and drove off. Lad was OK, but he had bee told o half a dozen occasions that o-one could see his ruddy indies from the front, so close to the headlamp, and so directional due to LED's.. lying on a heap in the middle of a wet round-about don't look 'cool', no matter how stylish your indies might have been before had!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Posted: 12:01 - 24 Jun 2017 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | | XT65 wrote: | I'm confused by the relay business to be honest...2 of them ?? |
Yeah, OK.. lets start at the top; what are you actually trying to do; are you fitting LED bulbs into your existing indicators, or are you replacig the original indicators for LED 'units'?
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I don't particularly LIKE led units but figure that anything that reduces drain on the battery is a good thing,they're cheep and long lasting.
It's not a 'looks' thing for me..
I clipped a wall left side indy sheared nearly off,so I bonded and taped it up with that tape like rubber that sticks to itself by Gorilla [but a far cheeper unbranded ] and after a while I decided it had to go so why not replace the lot...with LED units.but wired them up with the orig relay,just to see...
I got away with it up to the third rear,all flashing,looked about right blink rate and had the dash signal working as well...Then I put the last one on and it was christmas tree time with permanent hazard's and the switch got totally by-passed ie didnt turn,cancel or anything..
So I had to put the bulbs back on but kept the led in place of the broken one so I'd have all 4 as a temporary measure.Its just the right-turn in the dash that comes on very faintly,but as you mention I can see em working so as it's only temp,I can live with it till the Relay for led use turns up...
They are actually quite bright,but possibly wont be as bright once all four are in the circuit but as they dont work like bulbs I should really expect them to be as they were when I tested.
I know now why my XT only has leds in the rear when I got it...Same thing.Needs the led relay probably [the guy said he didnt have time to do it before mot prior to sale,and included the other two with the bike and a ''don't worry,it's a 2 minute job no prob'.....hhhh!.....
in this pic what does the 'W' stand for [hhh] at the end of the bat5 box.....one pin goes here and another to the 5amp fuse.
14:26 pm
ah so the 1 pin is to ground a 'common ground' at the ignition coil..? |
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