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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:27 - 17 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Because the special treatment is only generally given to a select group of Londoners. Natives who wish to get in on London for work purposes or to enjoy the vast investment in the local facilities must live in squalor and pay top dollar for the privilege.

I know I'm wasting my breath on this one but it was never intended as special treatment, Grenfell and other estates were dumping grounds, and thoroughly unpleasant places to live in the 80s/90s. The fact in certain parts of London they've become hipster cool is irrelevant. With Balfron Tower (Poplar) you get a social housing block being turned into luxury flats, because of the money from nearby Canary Wharf.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Balfron_tower.jpg/800px-Balfron_tower.jpg

Looks lovely doesn't it Confused
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:32 - 17 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

This obsession with living in London, at any cost, under any conditions: I'm beginning to suspect that it's a case of Little Londoners being unable to countenance visiting the outside world, which is perhaps why they're so keen to invite it in.
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arry
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 17 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
This obsession with living in London, at any cost, under any conditions: I'm beginning to suspect that it's a case of Little Londoners being unable to countenance visiting the outside world, which is perhaps why they're so keen to invite it in.


I think you just have to do it, if you're such inclined. If you're not, then you won't appreciate it.

I have never wanted it. I live as close as I can to it without being in it. It is spilling out a bit too far our way these days, so there maybe a move at some point in the future to escape it a bit more.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 00:41 - 20 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
This obsession with living in London, at any cost, under any conditions: I'm beginning to suspect that it's a case of Little Londoners being unable to countenance visiting the outside world, which is perhaps why they're so keen to invite it in.

Actually, its just that they just somehow get stuck there, stuck in jobs that demand a large chunk of their waking hours, and they can't get out, not don't want to get out, but can't.

They "can't" leave cos they are scared of not having "a good career path" (white collar workers) or even just a living wage (blue collar workers). Everyone's under such pressure to achieve, not many have the guts to be mavericks.

But once you have experienced ending up with nothing, and believe me I've been there, you discover that actually you can survive it and you somehow become more free, less worried about what might happen, you lose the knack of worrying about material things, and suddenly life gets easier to cope with.

A lot of those people never experience that, and so stay trapped in a cycle of fear of losing everything they think is "comfortable", or "the right career path".

A lot of people would really like to be in a position to live in those nice little enclaves in the commuter belt, in Cobham or Egham, Beaconsfield or the Chalfonts, or other well-padded areas out of town, because there are only so many places in Chelsea, Kensington, Hampstead or Mayfair that can be bought, for so many millions.

But they have to work very hard for a very long time to be able to afford to move out of London to the commuter belt. Not many have the bollocks to go out and camp out in a yurt in the woods, and its hell to try and get your three piece City suit to look good after an evening sleeping in the heather.

They get there, we all get there, thinking its where we wanna be, what we wanna do ... and then when we get there, we discover its not so easy to get back out again.

Its not called the rat-race for nothing, Rog.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:15 - 20 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
can't [...] "can't"

"OK".

hellkat wrote:
But they have to work very hard for a very long time to be able to afford to move out of London to the commuter belt.

Have to, or "have" to?


hellkat wrote:
and then when we get there, we discover its not so easy to get back out again.

What's the difficulty? Sell up to another rat and go and buy half of Scotchland, then live off of the bounty of the land: wild haggis and potato trees.

I'm hearing "won't" rather than "can't".
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:18 - 20 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Travelling across London takes longer than traveling in from 50 miles out.

What's the cost though?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:53 - 20 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Less than £120 a week

Minimum wage (25+) x 40 hours a week = £300 a week.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 13:46 - 20 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't make financial sense for low earners (we have done this before) Rolling Eyes Any savings on housing are quickly swallowed up by commuting costs and you're in the same situation as before, except you now live 50+ miles away.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:20 - 20 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
M.C wrote:
It doesn't make financial sense for low earners (we have done this before) Rolling Eyes Any savings on housing are quickly swallowed up by commuting costs and you're in the same situation as before, except you now live 50+ miles away.


Not true though is it?

Flats in Grenfell were £1,500 minimum rent. £18k a year. Travel will be an extra £5k, rent on equivalent flat in commutable distance is £6k a year. £7k saving to the tax payer.

Who's paying £1500 a month? Hipsters willing to slum it like in the block I posted above? Don't confuse what people actually earn and pay with some imaginary saving you've made up in your head.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:29 - 20 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Plus benefits, plus London weighting. How do they afford London rents then?

Is my point. London is not affordable for many (most?) Londoners.

Stop the subsides, let it all collapse. Nothing of value will be lost.
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 23:07 - 20 Aug 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Lupo
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PostPosted: 22:54 - 20 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
How do they afford London rents then?

These people are living in state funded £1,500 a month flats, some on part time me hours.


Flat sharing, if you have a low paid job, you have to flat share, then to improve your bit, you turn the living room into a double bedroom for the amazing price of £150 a week all included.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 23:11 - 20 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
I don't know how much a weekly Oyster card costs


Of course you don't
Laughing
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 23:17 - 20 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note to self:
Step away from the thread.
Trolly McTrollface posts are trollish.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:33 - 20 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
M.C wrote:

Who's paying £1500 a month? Hipsters willing to slum it like in the block I posted above? Don't confuse what people actually earn and pay with some imaginary saving you've made up in your head.


So I'm not to compare market value with the going rate then?

So I use reality minus what?

WTF are you going on about? No one was getting subsidised £1500 p/m in Grenfell, the only saving's in your head, based on what you think the flats should be rented for, ignoring the whole sodding point of social housing (you know to provide affordable housing).
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:34 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
based on what you think the flats would be rented for

<mdp72>Moved out of your mum's council house yet?</mdp72>

Nothing personal, I'm seeing if I can simulate his responses.

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hellkat
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PostPosted: 12:56 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't help myself. I have to bite.
https://www.mastermindfilmproductions.com/files/5714/4916/8524/jaws-facts6.jpg

Why should only rich people live there, though? Just because only they can afford to pay to live there themselves? I have a huge issue with that (but I don't know how to verbalise it without getting VERY angry and likely to become abusive, therefore pointless arguing about it) - but I'll do my best ( Laughing )

What I do know is that I understand your theoretical reasoning about the outrageous cost of rents there, being subsidised by taxpayers to provide housing for people who have "done nothing to deserve to live in such a nice area" ... but the point is that there should be no reason why poor people can't live in the area, indeed its that they SHOULD live in this area, in any area, a community should be mixed, not all one sort, have we not already learnt that recreating ghettoes or rich enclaves/compounds divides society worse than it already is. I could also be very NIMBYish about it myself, if I chose to, if I felt I had enough money to protect myself from the discomfort of having to consider the lives of poor people.

But REALLY what sort of people would we become if we completely distanced ourselves from other types of people so stringently? I wouldn't want to become that sort of person, a person who fears encountering the other sort of person? That's just not right. Whether for the reasons of fear or disdain or just plain not understanding how they can live the lives they do with any sort of conscious thought (note, I didn't say conscience, I said conscious thought, two entirely different things!) ... about HOW they live. Whether its wondering how those people living in less salubrious conditions ... or conversely, a misplaced sense of bitterness about what's happening behind the front doors in a more well-heeled area.

I dropped a passenger recently at an address, "just around the corner" from Grenfell.

He was a young guy, late 20s, born in North London to Nigerian parents. I wasn't able to talk to him long enough to get to know him as much as I would have liked. By all accounts, he's had quite an adventurous youth, having lived rough in London and Paris, and now he is a poet/musician, doing quite well for himself.

I asked him whether where I was dropping him off was his home, and he said yes; it was a tiny and probably very twee mews house. His success had meant he could afford to live there. I didn't get a chance to ask him why he had chosen there. But he said he felt very little sense of community there, and I could understand why: as he went up the stairs he seemed a lonely and out-of-place figure in what appeared to be a predominantly white-high-middle-class area. I don't know what his relationship is with his family, whether he engages with them back in North London or what, with the people from his "ends". Even dressed as he was in probably rather expensive clothes, they were quirky enough clothes that if you saw him walking down the Lancaster Road/Grenfell area, you might easily make the mistake of imagining he was local to that area, not to Holland Park/Notting Hill.

So when Grenfell happened, perhaps he was away touring, or perhaps he was actually in London at the time, I don't know. A whole community mourned, less than half a mile away, and hung together to help survivors ... but he claimed to feel no sense of community? ... living in a very different kind of environment, right around the corner.

No sense of community? No doubt the richer people in his area feel a sense of community when they sit around drinking champagne and blinis, but when they close their own front doors ... how many of them feel distanced from a sense of really belonging amongst the others living in their street?

I don't know where I am going with this. But I do know that making areas only available to people who are perceived to "belong" there, is not the way forward. Keeping people out because they cook smelly dried-fish dishes and wipe their bum with their right hands instead of toilet paper, might seem like a good idea, but who's to say that there aren't people living in £200 million/£1500 a week houses that cook smelly dried fish dishes as well. Pretty sure there are. If their money came from some nefarious source, it would certainly be easy to find a reason to take issue with that as well.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:37 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellkat wrote:
Why should only rich people live there, though?

Because they're worth it.

hellkat wrote:
Just because only they can afford to pay to live there themselves?

Yes, that's it.

hellkat wrote:
nice area

Point of order, "expensive", not nice.

hellkat wrote:
divides society

What's wrong with that?

Most people want to live in familiar monocultures. You say ghetto, I say enclave.

There are areas in Glasgow which are now almost entirely populated by non-indigenous cultures. Should they be forcibly broken up and displaced to prevent that?


hellkat wrote:
But REALLY what sort of people would we become if we completely distanced ourselves from other types of people so stringently?

Happy, peaceful and law abiding.

hellkat wrote:
I wouldn't want to become that sort of person, a person who fears encountering the other sort of person?

Then live among them. Good for you.

The issue some of us Nazis are having is being taxed in order to have unwelcome diversity foisted on us, at our cost.

I'd gas my neighbour for splitting an infinitive, bear in mind.


hellkat wrote:
But I do know that making areas only available to people who are perceived to "belong" there, is not the way forward.

What's the destination?

hellkat wrote:
Keeping people out because they cook smelly dried-fish dishes and wipe their bum with their right hands instead of toilet paper, might seem like a good idea

Left hand. Remind me never to shake with you. Shocked
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M.C
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PostPosted: 13:57 - 21 Aug 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Flats in there were renting for over £1,500 pcm minimum. I showed the link on Rightmove.
That's market rate for that area. Why on earth are we housing people with no intention of ever working in an area with rents that high? Going by the names on the news, it was hardly like they were born local to the area. The first announced death was an asylum seeker apparently from Syria.

Most full time workers on average income couldn't afford to live there. This is the problem with our benefits system, it benefits the feckless, so they can live in expensive areas and pop out 8 or 9 kids, whilst the tax payers have to live in cheaper areas and struggle to support 2-3 kids, if that.

You showed an advert, I've seen adverts on my estate for £1300 p/m cos it's a 3 bed in London... it was never ever rented for that amount. Your argument makes no sense, surely if people are on benefits then you want to house them in cheap accommodation, and keep that money in the system as it were? Otherwise it's going into the hands of private landlords.

If they're working then so what, they're probably doing a low paid job you wouldn't even consider, and remaining in the area (talking about London as a whole) where if there was no social housing there wouldn't be grunts doing the service jobs London needs.

To repeat myself for the millionth time, it's not their fault rent prices have exploded in the last ten years, and house prices over the last twenty. I saw a piece on nearby Trellick Tower (sister building to that monstrosity I posted above), about how it was a druggies paradise in the mid-nineties, and cab drivers wouldn't go onto the estate. They're are still unpleasant places to live, Tesco refuse to deliver where I live, and I've had issues with couriers refusing as well.

To begrudge the inhabitants of council estates is frankly retarded, but you'll be glad to know to know most of them are under threat across London (in the name of gentrification/progress), so over the next decade or so you'll see the peasant folk leaving...

...and then you'll have to find someone else to blame Thumbs Up
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