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KTM 2 stroke enduro with injection

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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 21:26 - 02 Sep 2017    Post subject: KTM 2 stroke enduro with injection Reply with quote

https://enduro21.com/index.php/40-general/2184-first-look-2018-ktm-250-300-exc-tpi-2-stroke-enduro

https://www.ktm.com/kr/enduro/300-exc-tpi/

Next year's KTM 250cc and 300cc 2 stroke enduro bikes come with a fuel injection system featuring a separate oil tank. Also gets a balance shaft which I'm guessing is new - and weight including electric start at 103kg pretty decent still!

Claimed a lot better fuel economy and Euro 4 too!

Of course, this will be the first year to feature this new system, so we wait the results in real world usage.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 00:10 - 03 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not that surprised it's EURO 4 compliant. Jawa made their 350cc two stroke in EURO 3 spec, just adding catalytic converters. So, the fuel injection reducing the fuel consumption should obviously lead to less CO2 and other exhaust gases.

What amazes me though, is KTM still making two strokes.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 09:01 - 03 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't knock anyone for trying to follow the two stroke road into its dead end, and it's only companies like KTM who do still sell probably nearly 50% of bikes as two strokes, who be able to get away with trying to eek out a bit more time with them.

They are popular, and this TPI system just let's them get euro 4, while keeping decent engine characteristics and drivability.

I head they've been testing and developing direct injection systems, but the compromises these systems entail in terms of weight, size, cost complexity and limits on performance, mean it's not deemed worth while to roll out, until they really have to.

Personally I think DI two stroke bikes won't see much light of day, as there's so many issues with making it work, and keeping the benefits of a two stroke engine. Also the next more stringent round of emissions legislation, will probably mean that spraying any oil into an engine and burning it, will be unacceptable and a no no.

That's when two strokes will roll over and they'll turn the lights out and shut the door. Non crankcase compression will make two strokes advantages nullified and mean there's no reason to develop anything else.

Four strokes havnt got forever, but at least cleaning them up is easy to do comparatively and gives them more time.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 09:18 - 03 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:
Also the next more stringent round of emissions legislation, will probably mean that spraying any oil into an engine and burning it, will be unacceptable and a no no.


This is an interesting point. But, I do not think this will be the issue.

Most of the car manufacturers today run their engines with oil losing lubrication system, reducing the internal friction of their engines, which leads to better fuel economy = less harmful substances in the exhaust gases.

The issue could be the durability test.

EURO 5 spec:
2020 (E4 2016)
CO: 1.00g/km (E4 1.14g/km)
Hydrocarbons: 0.10g/km (E4 0.17g/km)
NOx: 0.06g/km (E4 0.09g/km)
SHED test: yes (E4 yes)
OBD: yes (OBD2) (E4 OBD1)
Durability test: Lifetime (E4 20,000km)

*SHED test = Sealed Housing for Evaporative Determination; evaporation of fuel.
*Durability test = to ensure that motorcycles remain emissions-compliant even as they get older.
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI; MZ 150 ETZ, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor
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G
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PostPosted: 11:06 - 03 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:

What amazes me though, is KTM still making two strokes.

Why's that?
Their 2 strokes are still winning many international races - generally in forms that really aren't too far form the one you can walk into a KTM shop and buy 'over the counter'.

Not for all situations, but there's plenty of cases where the 4 stroke can't match the 2 stroke's performance.
With better fuel economy, one of the 2 stroke 'problems' is hopefully solved. Also; possibly this system will allow you to use engine braking on long descents too - as it can pump oil in on a closed throttle.
2 strokes are not only lighter, typically have a more linear power delivery with better low down power compared to the same class 4 stroke - they do lose out on top end a bit however. They have a lot less rotating mass; both from less spinning stuff and not revving as high; given an even bigger advantage over the lower overall weight.
Also easier and cheaper to work on, more reliable and lower repair bills if stuff does break.

I don't see durability being a big issue if you stick to their service intervals - which are measured in hours. Not as frequently as the 4 strokes, but you're still doing fresh rings and a piston occasionally.
Providing the injection system does ok, there's not much else to cause problems - a lot sless spinning stuff to go out (ie valves etc).
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thx1138
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PostPosted: 00:37 - 04 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

and two stroke dirt bikes are just more fun Very Happy
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 04 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm an old dinosaur that likes the blue smoke trails, but having ridden a few reasonably modern four stroke dirt bikes, I think they both definitely have their place and merit.

If I was serious about weekend MX racing and had the budget to support one, I'd be four stroke all the way baby! I think they are the most consistent tool in the box in this discipline.

I hope both don't go anywhere for a long time, as at least with some types of off roaders you can still make a valid argument for strokers being made, where as for a pure road bike or even new moped they are so irrelevant and a dead end waste of time now.
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G
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PostPosted: 20:57 - 04 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you ridden modern 2 stroke dirt bikes?

There has been a bit of a 2 stroke resurgence in motocross, but 4 strokes certainly rule the roost there.

A good number of years ago I leant my 144XC to a KX450 rider for a lap or two around Mark's Farm motocross track (just a basic practice track.)
He came back saying his 450 was going to be on ebay that night!
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 21:48 - 04 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm a bit light on actual modern two stroke experience tbh. Think it was a 15min session on a 2003 KX125, a few stints on WR200's and KDX200's that sums it up.

I haven't ridden any really recent thumpers either, things like WR250F, and a DRZ 400 are the most recent.

But yeah for a few reasons, if I was going to get really serious into MX and race most weekends looking for a result or two, I'd be going four stroke. Justifying that because I ain't ridden MX for years, was never very good at it even as a kid, and also alot of proper tracks these days have gone alot more supercross'y in layout. If consistent lap times on a slightly easier to ride to my limits thumper were what I was after, then why wouldn't I take every little advantage I could get?

Of course It would assume that I could afford four stroke maintenance costs, but then I bet most mature riders that buy them can afford their keep, and arnt bothered about a few extra kg either.

Not sure how I'd feel riding a four stroke trials bike though, I think that would be quite weird to get used of.

Oh and my original point was that neither four in two stroke always excels in every off road discipline. E.g you wouldn't really want a two stroke desert racer or Dakar bike.
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G
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PostPosted: 23:08 - 04 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always fancied an EXP-2 Razz.

Definitely worth getting a go on a modern 250 or 300 2 stroke enduro, as I've probably said before. Very different to what you're used to I'd say.

I'd like to try out the new KTM350 4 stroke. However, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the above enduro bikes would be better for the begginer rider on a motocross track, still.

4 stroke trials very similar to 2 stroke I'd say - you don't lose much of the low down grunt of the 2 stroke for the slightly higher revs in my experience.
But I'm far from skilled enough to comment.
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thx1138
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PostPosted: 23:18 - 04 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

all I know is I'm a crap rider, I point my Beta at things I can't do on my Honda, snatch the throttle and get over them Laughing
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G
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PostPosted: 00:02 - 05 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Rev 3 has got me up slopes I'd be thinking about chalk and climbing shoes for - no skill of mine, just turn the throttle and the bike does it.
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