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Why is John Mcguiness not doing MotoGP?

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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 08:08 - 12 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riding at the TT is a different skill to riding fast on track.

He's also not fit enough (sorry John if you're reading this).

Not fast enough (mid-upper pack British Superstock and half handy on a 250 to be fair).

Too old

No desire to go and do it.

None of the TT riders are quick enough to be at the sharp end of MotoGP. Those lads are the fastest 10 or 12 riders in the world on prototype bikes.

TT riders are very fast compared to a mortal, however on short circuit, it's uncommon to have one at the sharp end of both (Hickman being the most recent exception). Road Racing is still mostly UK and Ireland centric too. Spain and Italy are much more into their short circuit racing from a young age and have structures in place to bring those people through. There are other routes in, via WSBK as Crutchlow proved. It also depends a bit on the money you bring and if Dorna/ a manufacturer wants you there for marketing purposes.

If you want to get into track racing at a later age. Do track days, then club racing, be very, very fast, have friends in the right places, get lucky, have some money. HTH
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 10:21 - 12 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, why are the GP riders not making clean sweeps of the TT then? Fitter, Faster, should be a piece of piss, right?

Genuinely asking, my interest in racing is largely limited to 1/4 miles.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 10:26 - 12 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
So, why are the GP riders not making clean sweeps of the TT then? Fitter, Faster, should be a piece of piss, right?

Genuinely asking, my interest in racing is largely limited to 1/4 miles.


Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
Riding at the TT is a different skill to riding fast on track.


Thumbs Up

(See also, no money in it compared to what they can earn on the MotoGP merry go round, it's also a bit dangerous by comparison).

They're fast on short circuits on prototype bikes, but not on production bikes on a 37 mile road course.

To be fair I don't doubt given enough time maybe a couple of them could make a transition.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 10:39 - 12 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't Rossi do a demo ride around the TT course and say, something like, "fuck dat shit!".
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bugeye_bob
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PostPosted: 10:41 - 12 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
So, why are the GP riders not making clean sweeps of the TT then? Fitter, Faster, should be a piece of piss, right?

Genuinely asking, my interest in racing is largely limited to 1/4 miles.


Testicles is the reason, lamp posts and dry stone walls tend to put a lot of people off going 100%
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Joe
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PostPosted: 11:01 - 12 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because the Moto GP bikes don't have a cut out on the tank for his massive balls.
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supZ
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 12 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

a lot of TT riders do BSB/WSB but track riding doesn't seem to appeal to a lot them.

they tend to do other road racing NW200 etc..

I'm sure Guy Martin said he'd never track ride as he felt it was too safe and boring.. sure he didn't word it like that but hey Very Happy
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 17:03 - 12 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't they have to be relatively decent round a track to be granted the licence to race on the roads anyway?
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 18:20 - 12 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again wrote:
Don't they have to be relatively decent round a track to be granted the licence to race on the roads anyway?


Mountain license, I think so. Irish roads, not really. Fairly sure you can get a Mountain License by just doing Irish roads then a couple of international meeting (like the NW, Ulster or Southern 100).
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 18:23 - 12 Feb 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

To have done 6 road races within a year prior to a TT, so Martin has a fair few ahead of him.

I suspect the above to be discretionary. Razz
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Dave....
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PostPosted: 21:33 - 09 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

weasley wrote:
Didn't Rossi do a demo ride around the TT course and say, something like, "fuck dat shit!".


Did a parade lap IIRC and yes he was quoted saying something along those lines.
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lilredmachine
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PostPosted: 22:29 - 04 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The obvious answer is...

The quickest TT riders aren't actually flat out. They are far faster than the average mortal, but they are not as ultimately fast as they could be. He who dares, wins.

They aim to complete the fastest lap they can without becoming a fine pink mist on a dry stone wall. It's all judgement, experience and bike tech, the more confident a rider feels the faster they go.

Hence the reason that often the older riders (such as Mcguiness) that have more experience, are faster than the younger riders
that are far more fit but don't feel so comfortable pushing their luck on road courses.

Mcguiness would be hanging out of his arse after half a GP race on the full fat MotoGP bikes. The G forces to be withstood and stamina required to simply support yourself on a bike with carbon brakes and a 220+ mph top speed is pretty much superhuman as it is, let alone when you are 400 years old and a bit fat.

Circuit racing is the ultimate pursuit of speed, road racing is the gladiatorial pursuit of survival in the face of nearly insurmountable odds. Hence the reason the average death toll of each TT is around two per event, leading Bradley Smith to consider (and I quote) the TT as a 'Death Race'.

TT riders are tweaked.
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G
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PostPosted: 11:23 - 05 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

lilredmachine wrote:
The G forces to be withstood and stamina required to simply support yourself on a bike with carbon brakes and a 220+ mph top speed is pretty much superhuman as it is, let alone when you are 400 years old and a bit fat.

Question Not that high G forces I thought? Barely above 1g. So about what you get from gravity. Ok, that's compounded with gravity at 90 degrees, but no where near the G-Forces of F1 etc as far as I know.

Being fit is obviously worth while when you're competing with the best in the world.
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Musketeer
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PostPosted: 12:52 - 05 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't have to be the fastest track rider to win TT.

Huge balls is what you need above all Cool
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Kris
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PostPosted: 19:35 - 05 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Not that high G forces I thought? Barely above 1g.


1.8g at this test.
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G
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PostPosted: 20:50 - 05 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that's for a very short time - with out decently extended/lowered bikes you can't achieve much over 1g for any sustained period without the bike do a wheelie or stoppie.

You can achieve a high maximum G force by jump up and down - land without bending your legs much and you'll probably have a pretty high G force, but for a very short time.
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lilredmachine
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PostPosted: 21:34 - 05 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Short time, but repeated many times for 20 laps or so.

1.8g for a short time is enough. I don't train physically and I know that I would be extremely unlikely to be able to do a pushup with another me on top of myself.

If you can, then do it several times in a minute combined with continuously moving about on the bike and also trying to hold on to the damn thing whilst it accelerates like a bullet leaving a barrel.

The guy I used to spanner for, Pete Carr, went from running club to superstock 600 and struggled somewhat with the length of the races being quite some laps longer, even at that level. He is also a keen amateur level competition swimmer and is extremely fit. On a Motogp bike hammering around absolutely flat out I would imagine that effect is increased somewhat dramatically.
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G
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PostPosted: 23:03 - 05 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

lilredmachine wrote:
Short time, but repeated many times for 20 laps or so.

1.8g for a short time is enough. I don't train physically and I know that I would be extremely unlikely to be able to do a pushup with another me on top of myself.

I think you're massively over-estimating the time spent at 1.8g.
Further, it's not a case of 'doing a push up' - it's a case of holding still.
And of course it's not your complete body weight - it's just some of your torso, as your legs are held on the bike.

A good rider will minimise the forces on their body by bracing ahead of time - while this conserves energy, more importantly, it prevents unnecessary forces being transferred to the bike.

I'm not suggesting you don't need to be physically fit to do ok in any of it - I'm well out of shape due to not having done exercise for a significant time to give dodgy shoulders a chance to recover and a recent trackday at a much slower pace saw me tiring towards the end of some sessions.
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 22:22 - 06 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

lilredmachine wrote:
The obvious answer is...

The quickest TT riders aren't actually flat out. They are far faster than the average mortal, but they are not as ultimately fast as they could be. He who dares, wins.

They aim to complete the fastest lap they can without becoming a fine pink mist on a dry stone wall. It's all judgement, experience and bike tech, the more confident a rider feels the faster they go.

Hence the reason that often the older riders (such as Mcguiness) that have more experience, are faster than the younger riders
that are far more fit but don't feel so comfortable pushing their luck on road courses.

Mcguiness would be hanging out of his arse after half a GP race on the full fat MotoGP bikes. The G forces to be withstood and stamina required to simply support yourself on a bike with carbon brakes and a 220+ mph top speed is pretty much superhuman as it is, let alone when you are 400 years old and a bit fat.

Circuit racing is the ultimate pursuit of speed, road racing is the gladiatorial pursuit of survival in the face of nearly insurmountable odds. Hence the reason the average death toll of each TT is around two per event, leading Bradley Smith to consider (and I quote) the TT as a 'Death Race'.

TT riders are tweaked.


Having spent the last two weeks spectating at the TT course I can assure you that the top guys are flat out, where it counts.

Circuit racing is not the ultimate pursuit of speed, that happens at the Bonneville salt flats! Circuit racing is about finishing in front of the other bikes on the grid, this can be achieved by going faster than the rest, it can also be achieved by other means, block passes, defensive lines into corners, tyre choice, forcing other riders into errors, etc, etc.
Short circuit racing is about extreme acceleration, in relatively small spaces, followed by extreme braking on a regular basis and out thinking your opponents.

Road racing at the TT and the Manx GP is now a time trial, the riders are racing the track not the other riders. When McPint won his last Senior in 2015, I believe he said he didn't see another bike on track for the 4 laps, after the restart. The winner of the Senior at this years MGP didn't see another bike on the track.
The newcomers at the MGP were achieving more than respectable lap times, that would have seen them in the top 20 at the TT.

The Irish road races are public road 'circuits' with long straights, longer than anything MotoGP has to offer, and they have mass starts. The roads are horrible bumpy, manhole strewn strips of tarmac, unlike the grippy billiard tables that short circuit racers compete on.

Strange, is it not, that the vast majority of MotoGP, Moto2 & Moto3 riders are hobbit sized, wiry specimens whereas the vast majority of Real Road Racers are tall, broad shouldered blokes.

McPint started his racing career on short circuits but decided he preferred the roads.

The road racers do it because they love it, there's not much money in it unless you're one of the top riders!
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G
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PostPosted: 22:32 - 06 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suntan Sid wrote:

Having spent the last two weeks spectating at the TT course I can assure you that the top guys are flat out, where it counts.

Flat out in speed and acceleration/braking in plenty of cases, but not pushing the limits of acceleration and braking to the degree and regularity that circuit racers do - to start with, shorter lap times make it much easier to get a handle of what a corner can and can not allow for the current conditions.

Quote:
The road racers do it because they love it, there's not much money in it unless you're one of the top riders!

Same with the majority of circuit racers; it's just that you don't typically see the lower levels, because there's more upper levels available to view.
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RedPanda
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PostPosted: 22:30 - 09 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually asked Phillip McCallen a similar question at the TT this year. He said that when road riders hits the circuits they're just not as geared up, they don't get that rush they do on the roads. Often it's just for testing as well (I'm always surprised MD runs at the back of BSB).

Road racers are flat out for the very most part, if not you will be beaten. I guess it's knowing where you can push that little bit more, like some kerbs on the IOM are sloped you can just run up on the path. Others, no.

"Mcguiness would be hanging out of his arse after half a GP race on the full fat MotoGP bikes."

It's bike fitness, not who can run longest. The Superbike & the Senior at the TT go on for nearly 2 hours and have an average speed of what, 132mph? Lots of MotoGP riders would be struggling at the end of that.

This is an interesting read also, McGuinness's concentration doesn't worsen under stress & pressure, it improves (as I'm sure it would for many short circuiters): https://www.iomtt.com/News/2016/10/19/Dunlop-elite-athletes.aspx
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 06:09 - 12 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way to bump an arcane thread.



I see what I did there.
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