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Mr Hammers
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PostPosted: 13:53 - 24 Sep 2017    Post subject: Indicator indicator Reply with quote

Just sorting out my lad's GS125 and trying to work out whether the indicator indicator, the light on the dash that shows your indicators are on, is required for the MOT.

The guidelines don't specify clearly, but do say;

A direction indicator:
a. ‘tell tale’ missing or inoperative


Does 'tell tale' mean the indicator lamp on the dash? And if so, does that apply to bikes as well as cars? (as sometimes they differ). Can't find anything else in there that might be relevant.

Problem is the indicator indicator is a standard bulb, and if it's in, all indicators come on at the same time (as opposed to just left or right), probably because the indicators are leds. Taken out, they work as they should.

I imagine i can fix it by putting in an led for the indicator indicator, but that'll mean waiting for it to arrive before i can MOT it. If it's not needed, i can fix it later.

Anyone know?

Cheers.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 13:55 - 24 Sep 2017    Post subject: Re: Indicator indicator Reply with quote

Mr Hammers wrote:

A direction indicator:
a. ‘tell tale’ missing or inoperative


Does 'tell tale' mean the indicator lamp on the dash? And if so, does that apply to bikes as well as cars? (as sometimes they differ). Can't find anything else in there that might be relevant.


yes

Mr Hammers wrote:

Problem is the indicator indicator is a standard bulb, and if it's in, all indicators come on at the same time (as opposed to just left or right), probably because the indicators are leds. Taken out, they work as they should.



It's because the indicators are led. Put the proper ones back on.
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Last edited by Nobby the Bastard on 13:58 - 24 Sep 2017; edited 1 time in total
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 13:58 - 24 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe if you can see the indicators from a riding position you do not need anything on the dash.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 14:10 - 24 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liklihood is that the 'tell-tale' uses a clever but simple bit of circuitry that bridges both left and right indies so that when the left is 'on' it earths through the right and vica-vrsa, but relies on the indy bulb having enough resistance that it doesn't light it up along the way.... slap in LED's that dont have a high resistance, 'forwards' but are diodes so do 'backwards' strange thigs happen, like indicating left gives yu hazards, indicating right not a lot whilst tell tale can do almost anythig!

There's an FAQ on LED indies about it and a few circuit schematics I did that might not display thanks to boto-phcket's change of terms. but... essence is that you may need to disconect the tell-tale to make ides work properly.. the you need to re-arrange the tell-tale either using two sperate tell tales one for left ad one for right individually earthed... some use two component LEDS's pushed into tell-tale bulb holder; r you ed to get clever with diodes.

If front indicators can be clearly see fro the seating possition though, the you dont need a tell tale on the dash.. but if ts there it should work... so you may need to tape-over.

Alternatively how olds the GS?... check C&U regs for grandad rights, I'm not sure what year it became compulsory for bikes to have indicators, so if old enough indies can be removed altogether....

Other exemptions apply for machines designed for off-road use... the old 'day-time' MOT.. it's possible to get an MOT on a bike with almost NO street-gear at all on that one, and it needn't be by grandad rights.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:36 - 24 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris-red wrote:
I believe if you can see the indicators from a riding position you do not need anything on the dash.

/thread.

I fitted LED bulbs to the Enfield, never bothered fixing the single idiot light, and it's passed 3 MOTs that way without a 2nd glance.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 24 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris-red wrote:
I believe if you can see the indicators from a riding position you do not need anything on the dash.


Yep, this. Thumbs Up
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 08:33 - 25 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:

If front indicators can be clearly see fro the seating possition though, the you dont need a tell tale on the dash.. but if ts there it should work... so you may need to tape-over.


Why?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:12 - 25 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
Teflon-Mike wrote:

If front indicators can be clearly see fro the seating possition though, the you dont need a tell tale on the dash.. but if ts there it should work... so you may need to tape-over.

Why?

Mine is there, it doesn't work, 3 x passes.
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Wheezybiker
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PostPosted: 09:35 - 25 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll bow to greater knowledge if needed
But if the light on the dash works incorrectly then it may fail mot
If the light on the dash doesn't light at all it will pass
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:29 - 25 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheezybiker wrote:
I'll bow to greater knowledge if needed

Just a subjective observation, plus reading the MOT manual.

Wheezybiker wrote:
But if the light on the dash works incorrectly then it may fail mot
If the light on the dash doesn't light at all it will pass

Maybe, but (my shouting)

"2. Operating the indicators see that the operation of each front indicator is readily visible from the riding position or that the ‘tell tale’ is operating correctly. "

I do agree that's safer to bin the bulb completely than to have it operate in a deranged fashion.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 10:31 - 25 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
Teflon-Mike wrote:

but if ts there it should work
Why?

It's the usual 'default' of the MOT test.

Not all testable items are actually required by C&U, but if they are present they aught to function correctly... indicators are a good example; you don't actually need them, but if there's a switch, they should 'work' or folk could be riding around turning the switch left and right thinking they are indicating not telling anyone a darn thing... (bit like an Audichoch but with a better excuse!!) the tell-tale is an extension of that.

Hence advice for bit of black tape...

It's a bit like fork-gaters... you don't need them... but of there they must work and not impair function of suspension, but if they are torn or perished, then technically they are a 'defective suspension component' and could be reason for a fail!

Lots of things are like that, and it can come down to how pedantic or picky a tester is on the day, whether they choose to pass or fail something in the margins of either the general guidelines or their area of discretion.... you pays your money and takes your chances!!!
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johnsmith222
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PostPosted: 11:06 - 25 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would just get rid of the LED indicators. Non OEM ones look bad on sports bikes, nevermind a GS125.

Problem solved. Thumbs Up
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 11:31 - 25 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:

It's the usual 'default' of the MOT test.

Not all testable items are actually required by C&U, but if they are present they aught to function correctly... indicators are a good example; you don't actually need them, but if there's a switch, they should 'work' or folk could be riding around turning the switch left and right thinking they are indicating not telling anyone a darn thing... (bit like an Audichoch but with a better excuse!!) the tell-tale is an extension of that.

Hence advice for bit of black tape...

It's a bit like fork-gaters... you don't need them... but of there they must work and not impair function of suspension, but if they are torn or perished, then technically they are a 'defective suspension component' and could be reason for a fail!

Lots of things are like that, and it can come down to how pedantic or picky a tester is on the day, whether they choose to pass or fail something in the margins of either the general guidelines or their area of discretion.... you pays your money and takes your chances!!!


It's not

When an "if fitted" situation occurs it's clearly worded in the manual such as "If direction indicators are fitted they must meet the requirements of this inspection, but need not be fitted to a machine which" if no such wording is in the manual why would we apply it to other components that aren't mandatory.

A fork gaiter is not a testable item, before quoting from the manual be aware that the word "Cracked" is not used for rubber components (they are always damaged or deteriorated) it only matters if it effects the operation of the suspension, in which case it's not the Gaiter thats failing but the fouling suspension operation.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:39 - 25 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
It's a bit like fork-gaters... you don't need them... but of there they must work and not impair function of suspension, but if they are torn or perished, then technically they are a 'defective suspension component' and could be reason for a fail!

Here's the relevant page, please quote the reason for failure.
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Wheezybiker
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PostPosted: 13:11 - 25 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg
Thanks for linking the mot manual I didn't know it was available for us non mot testers
I will always bow to someone who knows more than me and your diligent answers show that you do indeed no more than me Thumbs Up
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 19:04 - 25 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually put a bit of tape over a non-functioning tell-tale, just to show willing.

I also once made a "tell tale" in flashers you couldn't see by drilling a small hole in the back of the flasher and filling it with a blob of clear epoxy with bits of ground up flasher lens in.
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davebike
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PostPosted: 10:12 - 26 Sep 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as you can see the front indicators clearly not required other required If bikes have passed without just shows not al testers know the rules properly !

If using Led indicators with single follower remove bulb get two pre wired leds wire then back to back and fit in bulb holder with bluetack !
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Mr Hammers
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PostPosted: 19:03 - 24 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, i took ChrisRed's/Rogerborg's advice, also the path of least resistance...and left it as it was.

It passed without any issues Thumbs Up Very Happy

Cheers for the help and advice peeps.
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Wonko The Sane
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PostPosted: 18:42 - 25 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
chris-red wrote:
I believe if you can see the indicators from a riding position you do not need anything on the dash.

/thread.

I fitted LED bulbs to the Enfield, never bothered fixing the single idiot light, and it's passed 3 MOTs that way without a 2nd glance.


Some MOT testers know their customers and how well they look after their bikes and give a certificate for showing up....
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:11 - 25 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonko The Sane wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
I fitted LED bulbs to the Enfield, never bothered fixing the single idiot light, and it's passed 3 MOTs that way without a 2nd glance.

Some MOT testers know their customers and how well they look after their bikes and give a certificate for showing up....

Mine glances at both the tyres and the brakes. Folded arms
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arry
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PostPosted: 08:07 - 26 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The KTM got ridden round in a circle, parked up, stared at for 10 seconds and then acknowledged into roadworthy greatness with a 'yeah fine'.
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