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| ScaredyCat |
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ScaredyCat
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| Londoner2015 |
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Londoner2015
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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Londoner2015
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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 Posted: 09:59 - 06 Oct 2017  Post subject: |
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It's the sort of detailed, informative, well structured novella that Tef thinks he's writing.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| sickpup |
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sickpup
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Posted: 02:17 - 07 Oct 2017  Post subject: Re: Any rukka fans? |
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| Londoner2015 wrote: | No jacket can be fully waterproof if you ride in extreme rain for, say, 12 hours non-stop, not even the most uber-expensive GoreTexProUltraSuperUberTek. |
Yes it can. Whether the rain gets in via the collar or cuffs is another matter. I found that if I was zipped up jacket to trousers and didn't remove my gloves Gore-tex kept me perfectly dry all day or at least did when i worked on bikes.
| Londoner2015 wrote: | I remember a few reports on this on advrider. Or you can read the reports of those who ride to the Elefantentreffen - pretty much all gear fails in those conditions. |
Not the sort of people who ride all day 5 days a week.
| Londoner2015 wrote: | YMMV, but in my experience I have never noticed any material differences among GoreTex, GorePro, Schoeller’s c-change, Clover’s, Revit’s and Alpinestar’s waterproof membranes, although, TBH, I have never ridden in very extreme rain for more than an hour. Some swear that Gore is better than other brands' own membranes; again, that's not my experience, but YMMV. |
But then you don't ride 12 hours a day 5 days a week. More couriers use Gore-tex than any other membrane, ask them why.
Rukka tend to be either very good or very bad. A few of the chaps at work have had Rukka that has leaked on the first day and had to be exchanged but then the exchanges are fine, more have had to return items for repair.
Rukka also tends to be overpriced compared to the equivelent from other manufacturers for example my IXS Toronto Gore-tex Pro jacket was £700ish reduced to £380 whereas the equivelent Rukka would be the Armas at £849.
You don't have to just go for Rukka, any Gore Pro would be very good and the old Gore Performance is still good but the outside tends to absorb water so you get cold but still dry.
Keep in mind Roger is the ultimate sceptic
| Rogerborg wrote: | I'm sold on Gore-Textm now. |
and yet even he likes Gore-tex now. |
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| Londoner2015 |
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Londoner2015
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| Posted: 08:15 - 07 Oct 2017 Post subject: |
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@sickpup, sorry to disappoint you, but you are wrong: no fabric can be waterproof under extreme conditions.
Did you ever wonder why the performance of waterproof fabrics is measured in mm? Do you know what that means? 20,000 mm means you can place a tube that's 20,000 millimetres high (I don't remember the diameter) on the fabric, fill it with water, and the fabric won't leak. 10,000mm means just that: 10,000 mm would work, 20,000 wouldn't.
You can find more detailed explanations here, including why outerwear is never completely waterproof:
https://www.evo.com/guides/outerwear-waterproof-ratings-and-breathability
https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/rainwear-how-it-works.html
No, I don't ride 12 hours a day. Couriers do, but they are hardly ever exposed to 12 hours of non-stop rain. That's why the stories of those who go to the Elefantentreffen are, IMHO, more relevant when it comes to testing gear in extreme conditions. |
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| sickpup |
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sickpup
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| Posted: 09:48 - 07 Oct 2017 Post subject: |
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| Londoner2015 wrote: | @sickpup, sorry to disappoint you, but you are wrong: no fabric can be waterproof under extreme conditions. |
Well that depends on what you class as extreme conditions.
| Londoner2015 wrote: | Did you ever wonder why the performance of waterproof fabrics is measured in mm? Do you know what that means? 20,000 mm means you can place a tube that's 20,000 millimetres high (I don't remember the diameter) on the fabric, fill it with water, and the fabric won't leak. 10,000mm means just that: 10,000 mm would work, 20,000 wouldn't. |
Yes its called head of water iirc.
Now heres the relevent bit concerning Membranes from memory so may be wrong but probably isn't.
Sheltex is rated at 12psi. This is equivelent to 27.67 foot of head
Gore-tex is around 18psi. This is equivelent to 41.51 foot of head.
These are from the information Hein Gericke used to give to customers so they could make an educated choice when buying.
Membranes can wet out where they are so wet or dirty they get wet. Either wash regularly or when they weather is truly extreme you put shell waterproofs over your goretex then the sweat goes through the goretex can't penetrate the plastics so drips down between them. You also have less wetting out problems if you use heated clothing under the goretex clothing
| Londoner2015 wrote: | No, I don't ride 12 hours a day. Couriers do, but they are hardly ever exposed to 12 hours of non-stop rain. That's why the stories of those who go to the Elefantentreffen are, IMHO, more relevant when it comes to testing gear in extreme conditions. |
I shalll let the many couriers I know that they don't ride in rain for 12 hours a day very often, I suspect they will laugh at you.
People who don't ride for a living tend to go through less gear and aren't as well prepared for heavy rain when it happens for days on end. |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Londoner2015 |
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Londoner2015
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| Posted: 10:44 - 07 Oct 2017 Post subject: |
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@sickpup, precisely, the very fact it has to be measured means that outdoor gear is never 100% waterproof, only water resistant to certain degrees. AFAIK these tests don't apply to, say, rubber or the metal cage of a car. I understand most BCFers would rather have their tongues cut than admit they were wrong, but you were factually wrong 
@Roger, may I ask what else you have tried? Have you tried Schoeller's c-change? BMW uses it in its latest Enduroguard. I have it on another jacket and I find it on par with GoreTex. |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 11:59 - 07 Oct 2017 Post subject: |
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No, I haven't been doing this that long. Given that I'd expect a multiple-hundred pound item to last at a minimum 5 years of near daily use, there are only so many that you can really try out in a lifetime.
I used RST Sinaqua which lasted a couple of years before leaking through the elbows. Various TX lotions and potions and tumble drying recovered it a few times before I eventually gave up on it.
I then slummed it for a while by adding various plastic waterproof layers (2 piece, 1 piece) which do work just fine, but are a hassle to carry and put on.
Ain't nobody got time fo', and so on, so I thought I'd take a punt on a cheap and old Rukka Gore-Textm jacket. Given that it's been absolutely bone dry despite being surprisingly thin and light, I can't see why I'd gamble on anything else now.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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sickpup
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| Londoner2015 |
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Londoner2015
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| Posted: 13:04 - 07 Oct 2017 Post subject: |
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| sickpup wrote: |
The thing is over the last year or so you have put down various brands jackets
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Such as? I think Rukka is not worth the cost, I have never said it was poor quality.
| sickpup wrote: |
and only really recommended the Hideout Textiles which oddly you don't use so you are not exactly an unbiased person and quite a hypocrite.
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Ehm, how do you know I don't use the Hideout jacket? 
Please do enlighten me
Not unbiased? A hypocrite? What are you on?
I use it almost every day from roughly October till April, then it becomes too hot for me.
And, BTW, that's not the only one I recommend. The Klim Apex and BMW Enduroguard are two jackets I'd recommend for the rainy British spring/summer.
| Londoner2015 wrote: | Quite simply, I cannot be convinced of what the additional value of Rukka would be; |
I suspect you have never even tried Rukka considering your complaints about how expensive it is and how can low paid couriers afford it.[/quote]
You're right. I have never tried it. I haven't won the lottery so I can't try all the high-end gear I'd like.
In terms of protection, the top-end Rukka used to have some superfabric; the new, even more expensive one (Nivala) doesn't any more - it has more vents but it is less abrasion resistant without the superfabric. This alone is a big deal to me, because, if I spent that much money, I'd want something more than bog-standard Cordura when it comes to abrasion resistance.
In terms of waterproofness, you can get stuff with excellent top-end membranes for far less than the £1,200 the Rukka Nivala now costs. In fact, you can get a made-to-measure Hideout for less.
Lastly, I sweat a lot, and I could only use the heavy Rukka jackets when it's really, really cold. by end of February-early March I'd start sweating like a pig. How do I know if I haven't tried Rukka? Because the weight of a jacket contributes a lot to how much it makes you sweat, especially in city traffic, and because this is a common complaint, which in fact drove Rukka to make the new Nivala with better vents. Not everyone sweats as much as me, of course (lucky them) - as with all these things, YMMV. |
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| Londoner2015 |
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Londoner2015
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Posted: 13:09 - 07 Oct 2017  Post subject: |
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| sickpup wrote: |
By your definition neither rubber nor steel are waterproof. Rubber will rupture if you place enough pressure on it as will steel. Afterall a water grit cutter will go straight through it dependant on thickness.
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Ok, let's be clearer, then.
The conditions under which a high-end motorcycle jacket will leak rain are far less rare and extreme than those under which the metal cage of a car will leak rain.
Realistically, unless it's faulty, no car leaks rain inside; motorcycle jackets, instead, can and do, even the most expensive ones - not if you ride for 30 minutes under the rain, but if you ride from Dusseldorf to Munich on the autobhan under intense rain, not impossible, not impossible at all. Again, Elefantreffen reports are good reading.
Clearer now? |
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sickpup
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 6 years, 201 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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